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Hi

I've been to quick to buy my lubricant and they are not what you recommend so I don't really know if they are still usable and if yes what will be the corresponding with your lubricant

So here what I've brought:

  • Moebius 9104
  • Moebius 8200
  • Moebius 941
  • Moebius 9010 

Could please help me to use the right one ?

Thanks

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Well I would definitely start with Moebius 9010 (for train wheels and balance endstones) and 9020 (for train wheels) if you are working on Pocket Watches. Moebius 9415 is a must for Pallet/Escape

I made this for anybody getting started, feel free to share.   Recommended Lubricants for Getting Started.pdf

I have to say the oil side of watch repair makes me smile. Back in November  put in an order for a 55 gallon drum of 1000 weight steam oil for my traction engine. I buy about one drum a year and

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20 minutes ago, richiesgr said:

they are not what you recommend so I don't really know if they are still usable and if yes what will be the corresponding with your lubricant

While I can make a wild guess based on this being a horological discussion group what sort of horological items would you like to lubricate?

21 minutes ago, richiesgr said:

So here what I've brought:

  • Moebius 9104
  • Moebius 8200
  • Moebius 941
  • Moebius 9010 

As you've already purchased them we will have to work with these were we?

To understand the lubrication's you've purchased the website is below you get all the technical specifications.

Then you have a problem? If we look at the early early days of lubrication it's a light oil, I heavier oil and a grease. Then today we had in specialty oils for special applications but we still follow that theme starting with a light oil on the balance pivots working to I heavier oil towards the center wheel.

Your light oil is the 9010 the universal balance pivots oil. Also a light oil is the 941 which today has been replaced by 9415 but here's will still work is used on the pallet stones not the pallet pivots.

But where is your heavier oil? Based on my original question I'm going to assume you're only my work on really really really tiny ladies mechanical watches in which case you could probably use both those oils for the pivots a really don't need a heavier oil but otherwise you need heavier oil.

The 9104 is your general grease your playset on all the metal on metal friction parts.  the 8200 is a specialty grease used on the mainspring.

Then I snipped out the  chart found in the website below and highlighted your lubricants.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

lubrication missing.JPG

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Thanks for your help. 

When I talk about "they are not what you recommend". I was talking about the product recommended by Mark Lovick in the course that I'm following (Sorry it was not stated).

So Mark's recommendation is to get D5 and I think this is the one I misses. I thought the corresponding was 9104 but can't see the 9104 on the chart at all. or may be 9104 = 9504 (don't know anymore) 

Best Regards 

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In my experience the lubricant used for the keyless side is not critical. I have used both grease and oil based lubricants without any issues. Lubricants for the going side however has to be given more consideration. I like the HP mobius oils because they seem to stay where put and being coloured you can visually see how much has been applied. This is a contentious issue for many horologists with many views this is just what I do.

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4 hours ago, richiesgr said:

"they are not what you recommend".

Don't worry about not recommended because? There are some discussion groups where you can't even discuss lubrication as fistfights will break out. People tend to be very passionate about whatever the heck they're using and very very Not willing to change or do anything. Plus there's a lot of confusion on recommended lists. Especially since watch repair spans 100 or more years With people looking at tech sheets that is spanned quite a number of years that ends up with just lots of confusion with lubrication.

4 hours ago, richiesgr said:

9104 on the chart at all. or may be 9104 = 9504 (don't know anymore) 

Okay it looks like my confusion my bad. There actually is a 9104 I'm attaching the image it's normally known as something else which I'll comment below. My problem was I saw the nine and the four and that typically with the right additional stuff makes it the grease a high-pressure grease. That means the highlighting in my chart may be slightly wrong.

4 hours ago, richiesgr said:

So Mark's recommendation is to get D5

Now we get a interesting confusion. 9104 does exist on the chart. But normally it's known as high-priced 1300 although normally they abbreviate high-priced into HP. Then probably from their point of view it's high-profit although we don't actually know that. So I think they actually called high performance and that numeric designation makes it high performance 1300 I'm attaching an image from their website.

There tends to be a slow migration from mineral oils and natural oils still being used to synthetic oils. But I hadn't noticed it before the chart in the fine print the bottom. The HP oils are only recommended for ruby bearings if your lubricating with brass bushings or American pocket watches for instance with 7 J we have a lot of brass they are recommending D5 which is the equivalent oil in viscosity. I doubt that Mark would recommend HP 1300 and D5 I suspect he was recommending the grease and the  D5.

So you have to look at what you get it may be that I interpreted correctly that you did get the grease your missing the heavy oil which would be the D5. Which fortunately is really really cheap compared to the synthetic oils.

 

9104.JPG

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  • 1 month later...

I have looked for a guidance what oils to use for a size 16 pocket watch on the web and came across the BHI document:
https://theindex.nawcc.org/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

If I'm correct all I need is:
HP 500 (equivalent to 9020) for balance pivots, escape wheel, train wheels
HP 1300 barrel arbour
941 pallet jewels
8200 mainspring
8030 keyless (I'd use 9501 as that's what I have)

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These are the lubricants my Dad left me.

I have purchased new oils for my hobby work...according to recommendations I got from this forum (just three- light, medium, and grease).

I have lots of this Elgin Oil. 

Seems to me, that my Dad used a lot of the 56-a, but I cannot say for sure.

2021-03-29 11_30_07-Photos.png

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Thank you for your reply.
I'm trying to identify which modern, ideally synthetic oils are best for a pocket watch movement. The BHI guide puts everything into one bag from ligne 13 upwards. I'm guessing that the oils I listed above are fine. Just a bit confused why they list 9020 for some pivots and HP 500 for others and then just below the chart state that they are equivalent.

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5 minutes ago, PeterS said:

Thank you for your reply.
I'm trying to identify which modern, ideally synthetic oils are best for a pocket watch movement. The BHI guide puts everything into one bag from ligne 13 upwards. I'm guessing that the oils I listed above are fine. Just a bit confused why they list 9020 for some pivots and HP 500 for others and then just below the chart state that they are equivalent.

The 9501 you have is fine for the canon pinion and other setting parts, 8200 or 8300 or even the 9501 again for the mainspring,  then I'd recommend 9415 for escapement as it's just better all around and is fine for pocketwatches down to tiny calibers, either hp500 or 9020 for the train, but 9010 for balance and escape pivots.

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23 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The 9501 you have is fine for the canon pinion and other setting parts, 8200 or 8300 or even the 9501 again for the mainspring,  then I'd recommend 9415 for escapement as it's just better all around and is fine for pocketwatches down to tiny calibers, either hp500 or 9020 for the train, but 9010 for balance and escape pivots.

That was very much my plan until it struck me that the pocket watch movement is larger than the smaller watch movements I'm used to.

I have most of the oils, I don't have 9020 and HP500. I'll probably pick the HP500
I have 9415 but the guide states 941 up to 21600 and this one is 18000.
I also have 9010 but they say 9020 for the balance and escape.

The movement is ligne 18 or thereabout.

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55 minutes ago, PeterS said:

I have 9415 but the guide states 941 up to 21600 and this one is 18000. 

How old is the guide? Lubrication is an evolving industry, 9415 has isotropic properties that were not available before, these are more important on on fast beat calibers however as Master Nickelsilver said, "just better all around". 

Quote

I also have 9010 but they say 9020 for the balance and escape

Will you use it in hot, temperate, or cold climates? On paper that could be the factor helping in choosing between two sysntetical oil having a marginal viscosity diffirence. 

Quote

The movement is ligne 18 or thereabout.

Do movement sizes really influence lubrication choices? So the prevailing sources lead us to believe. If that is supported by facts, that is left to the individual ingenuity to find. 

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It's British Horological Institute guide from 2007. That's fairly modern considering I have de Carle books from 1940s.

The owner doesn't use it. I guess he will put it on his coffee table from time to time and that's about it, so I'd say room temperature. Still, I'd like to do the best possible job I can.

I'm not sure how much the size matters, I'm no expert. I'm guessing it does matter, I just now came across Moebius chart and they also go by the size of the calibre. Looking at their chart, it's what Nickelsilver suggested.
9010 for balance and escape and 9415 or 941 for the pallet jewels.
That makes it easier for me as I only need the HP500 or 9020, I have all the other oils and greases.

The Moebius chart is here:
https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/category/moebius-lubricating-chart

British Horological Institute chart:
https://theindex.nawcc.org/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

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4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have lots of this Elgin Oil.

Definitely keep the Elgin oil it supposedly last forever and it's extremely good. So good that it's prized by lots of people and still use today plus it was synthesized. I'm attaching the technical sheet for that.

Then a newer lubrication guide from Omega 2017. A big Problem with horological lubrication guides they don't always tell the whole story? For instance if you look at ETA  they recommend an awful lot of HP 1300 In locations like setting parts where I think grease Would be preferred. It's only when you get the newer tech sheets to find out that they surface treat basically the entire watch which allows them to get by with oil as it's not going to spread.

58 minutes ago, PeterS said:

The Moebius chart is here:

Newer lubrication chart can be found at this link Which now brings up an amusing problem notice at the bottom of the page this "The Synt-HP oils are preferentially in use for ruby bearings. For brass bearings, we recommend Microgliss D-4 or D-5."

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The 9501 you have is fine for the canon pinion and other setting parts,

I was talking to somebody who works in the swatch service center and 9501 other than visible watches 9504 is preferred. The 9504 appeared on my bench last week and for just trying it on one of the pocket watches I banish the 9501 as this is better.  the white high-pressure substance that they mix in does seem to do its job quite nicely at least for the one watch I tried.

2 hours ago, PeterS said:

I also have 9010 but they say 9020 for the balance and escape.

 

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Will you use it in hot, temperate, or cold climates? On paper that could be the factor helping in choosing between two sysntetical oil having a marginal viscosity diffirence. 

Interesting about the temperature reference for choosing 9010 or 9020. It rains a lot here I wonder if that qualifies? But somewhat joking aside if you do look at the lubrication specifications there are specifications for lubricants to be used in extremely cold locations plus those have to be surface treated or they will just spread away. But that's more like Arctic temperatures.

Typically I work on pocket watches you will find on my bench is zero 9010. The light oil a choice is 9020 unless I'm doing a quartz watch than its 9000. Then yes I'm going against the world for the entire world believes 9010 is the universal balance wheel pivot oil. But amusingly if you look at the tech sheet it says the oil does not spread except everyone who uses it typically surfers treats the stuff related to balance pivots. Yes read the specifications for shock protected jewels they have been surface Treated. Eta  even surfers treats their balance staff. Then as far as the world coming to the and sluggish amplitude I've never had that with 9020. Lubrication also becomes a personal choice and my personal choice for light oil is 9020.

If you look at the horological data of escapement lubrication originally it was 9010. Then they moved to 941 at least on paper. That little reference is just because they had a lubrication for escapement's doesn't mean people gave up to 9010 and embraced the new 941. Then for the higher frequency watches 9415 came out. But don't know if was cheap watchmakers or cheap watch manufacturers? In that they soon went from the low-frequency watches have this the high-frequency have that to an either or situation. Then now 9415  is recommended for everything providing you apply it correctly and don't get carried away with too much.

 

TS5500EN elgin oil.pdf Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf

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48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Definitely keep the Elgin oil it supposedly last forever and it's extremely good. So good that it's prized by lots of people and still use today plus it was synthesized. I'm attaching the technical sheet for that.

Wow...cool.  Thanks for that!!

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10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Typically I work on pocket watches you will find on my bench is zero 9010. The light oil a choice is 9020 unless I'm doing a quartz watch than its 9000. Then yes I'm going against the world for the entire world believes 9010 is the universal balance wheel pivot oil. But amusingly if you look at the tech sheet it says the oil does not spread except everyone who uses it typically surfers treats the stuff related to balance pivots. Yes read the specifications for shock protected jewels they have been surface Treated. Eta  even surfers treats their balance staff. Then as far as the world coming to the and sluggish amplitude I've never had that with 9020. Lubrication also becomes a personal choice and my personal choice for light oil is 9020.

I'm positive that BHI specified 9020 for a good reason. I don't normally work on pocket watches so I don't have the need for it and I will use 9010 but if I was working on larger calibers more often I'd most likely follow their guidelines.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/10/2014 at 8:29 AM, Mark said:

Moebius 8200 grease for mainspring. Moebius 8217 for barrel wall (automatic watches)

It's a lot but at a minimum get 9010, 9415, D5 and 8200

So how much slip are we talking about here if I use 8200 rather than a 8217 on an automatic?

My Elgin bumper 607 has some weird stuff going on with possible over-stressing the small "ratchet wheel lever" (I don't know what to call it because I can't find a part number)

Here is a picture...My guess is when the watch is almost fully wound, the rotor just moves back and forth over a few teeth and doesn't swing the whole way OR there isn't enough slip to keep from over stressing the mechanism.

My thought is I might want a bit more slip in the winding spring....Any ideas?

(Picture credit goes to Gene Jockey)1518987756_Winding2.jpg.41b4d29d35c467b0df2c8f1a0573357d.jpg

 

Edited by SuspectDevice
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1 hour ago, SuspectDevice said:

So how much slip are we talking about here if I use 8200 rather than a 8217 on an automatic?

You might find the link below interesting. On modern watches with modern automatic mainsprings breaking grease is required. They're designed specifically to use breaking grease. But in the discussion below the documentation is in reference to an earlier system for automatic watch mainsprings. It's conceivable with the older mainsprings that they're holding much much tighter. This means that using 8200 which would be unacceptable today because he would slip prematurely and slipped too much may be suitable for the older watches if you have the older mainspring.

You also notice in the discussion that Omega has a test to tell if it's holding enough. Strangely enough they don't have a test of its holding to well. For instance I saw Seiko watch were somebody used to much of one of the modern breaking greases and when it was manually wound up and hit the end it slept but it had way way too much force there is definitely a danger of damaging the automatic. This is where the application of some of the breaking greases is critical.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/18992-2-piece-automatic-mainspring

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22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Excellent link...Thank you

The article uses "mainspring and slipping attachment" rather than the what has been referred to now as a "2 piece mainspring."

It older terminology is more useful regarding oil selection. 8200 appears to be the correct choice for possibly all bumper automatics assuming they all use slipping attachments.

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6 hours ago, SuspectDevice said:

The article uses "mainspring and slipping attachment" rather than the what has been referred to now as a "2 piece mainspring."

Also known as bridle.

When some watch part has not been invented in England (the automatic watch actually was, but first produced in Switzerland) then you have all kinds of funny translations from French or German. 

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3 hours ago, SuspectDevice said:

It older terminology is more useful regarding oil selection. 8200 appears to be the correct choice for possibly all bumper automatics assuming they all use slipping attachments.

In the absence of any other data the above is probably correct if you still pass the test of being able to hold the winding up to a certain point before it slips. As long as the outer part is strong enough to hold and does not require breaking grease then it would be acceptable. But any of the newer watches I think unified you'd never build a hold any power at all once it slips it would release all of its power.

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4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But any of the newer watches I think unified you'd never build a hold any power at all once it slips it would release all of its power.

I don't think that a mainspring can behave like that.

With the MS unwound there is no torque on the barrel, but much force pressing it to the wall, because all the coils are outward wanting to expand more. 

As you start winding, the coiling starts moving toward the arbor. Torque available on the barrel quickly increases, but pressure (friction) decrease between the outer coil and the wall.

At almost full winding not even a full coil contacts the wall, but just an arc of it. Here the function of the bridle becomes important. Its tip is in the opposite direction and punts against the wall, effectively braking, while the above happens. Unlike the end of the main part, that would be dragged along. Some barrels (e.g. Sellita) also have notches on the wall to positively engage the tip of the bridle into the wall. 

At some point an equilibrium is found and even if the auto winding (which is, by nature, relatively weak) is able still turn the arbor, the MS will slip a corresponding tiny bit to avoid excessive stress on the innermost coil, which could snap over a long time. 

The braking grease is there just to move the equilibrium of forces futher toward building a larger power reserve, delaying slipping. Its total absence does not prevent an automatic MS to be wound anyway to a significant portion of its full potential. 

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