Lubricants

[VWatchie]

55 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Did we figure out if the Russian watches are using a different lubrication?

I'm afraid I don't know, but I'd be extremely surprised to learn they weren't using their own oils. Anyway @Poljot provided us with this post containing a link to Russian Moebius alternatives. Haven't tried them though but I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they were really good.

We don't often think about it and I believe we often underestimate the Russians, but I believe Russian technology is far more advanced then we'd like to think it is. Just consider their space technology, their hypersonic missiles, their military and civilian aviation industry, and so on. Not to mention their amazing culture when it comes to authors, composers, artists, architecture, and so on. From an historical, technological, and cultural point of view, Russia is perhaps one of the richest countries in Europe. And just to make sure; no, I do not support the appalling war, and I'm not Russian!

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you Abe to compare them to a seiko 5.

WARNING: 100 % OT!

I often look at and marvel at the Seiko watches, especially the dial and hands. If it weren't for the Seiko movements I'd be an ardent fan. Well, there's seems to be nothing wrong with their movements, they seem to work extremely well, and I just love it how springs are integrated into the parts. Anyway, here are three reasons I stay from Seiko (and Orient) movements if I can:

1. Plastic parts. Sure, I know, it's an emotional argument. The plastic is of top quality and will probably last for as long as the metallic parts(?). But still, plastic! In my opinion it just doesn't belong in a mechanical movement.

2. The mainspring barrels. Not designed to be serviceable. Seiko's policy is that the barrel complete should be replaced. OK, that's fine with me, but who can supply Seiko barrel completes to independent repairers? No one is seems!?

3. Diafix springs and cap jewels smaller than a spec of dust for the 3rd wheel and escape wheel to press up the jewel count. They are a PITA to handle, and if you mess up, 99.9 % impossible to recover.

Anyway, I spend a lot of time looking at Seiko watches. They're just so very, very pretty!

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

WARNING: 100 % OT!

I often look at and marvel at the Seiko watches, especially the dial and hands. If it weren't for the Seiko movements I'd be an ardent fan. Well, there's seems to be nothing wrong with their movements, they seem to work extremely well, and I just love it how springs are integrated into the parts. Anyway, here are three reasons I stay from Seiko (and Orient) movements if I can:

1. Plastic parts. Sure, I know, it's an emotional argument. The plastic is of top quality and will probably last for as long as the metallic parts(?). But still, plastic! In my opinion it just doesn't belong in a mechanical movement.

2. The mainspring barrels. Not designed to be serviceable. Seiko's policy is that the barrel complete should be replaced. OK, that's fine with me, but who can supply Seiko barrel completes to independent repairers? No one is seems!?

3. Diafix springs and cap jewels smaller than a spec of dust for the 3rd wheel and escape wheel to press up the jewel count. They are a PITA to handle, and if you mess up, 99.9 % impossible to recover.

Anyway, I spend a lot of time looking at Seiko watches. They're just so very, very pretty!

 

I know what you mean about plastic. I'm the same with plumbing. Yes it works pretty well, but sticking to copper is more traditional, and always works if used properly, where as plastic however well its made can fail more so than copper or brass under certain  circumstances. And if you can't get a major  part fairly readily why have that stress of  tracking it down. It's fun trying but disappointing when it's becoming impossible, I understand  exactly  where you are coming from there. I had a real problem with a diafix  on an 80s oris that kept alluding me and testing my patience, it sounds like the seiko is worse still. I'm starting to think the same as you then. Thank you for the feedback. I may stay away from seiko repair at least for the time being. I have 4 new seikos in my collection. Yes they are very good at dials. I have a cheap seiko 5 snkl 23 and for the price the dial looks bloody good. I'd love to see the Grand seiko snowflake dial, its supposed to be mesmerising. Apparently a creation brought about by staring into the winter snow.

[gbyleveldt]

8 hours ago, VWatchie said:

WARNING: 100 % OT!

2. The mainspring barrels. Not designed to be serviceable. Seiko's policy is that the barrel complete should be replaced. OK, that's fine with me, but who can supply Seiko barrel completes to independent repairers? No one is seems!?

3. Diafix springs and cap jewels smaller than a spec of dust for the 3rd wheel and escape wheel to press up the jewel count. They are a PITA to handle, and if you mess up, 99.9 % impossible to recover.

Anyway, I spend a lot of time looking at Seiko watches. They're just so very, very pretty!

 

Haha, we’re so far into the weeds now it really doesn’t matter to preface a post with OT lol.

I hear you on the mainspring barrels. They a total pain to service, but it can be done. In the beginning I bought complete barrels from Cousins, albeit for 7S and newer movements. Now I have a system that works. Mostly. Was a pain to figure out the right combination of winder/arbour for mainspring winder though, mostly because the spring itself is too thin for a typical Bergeon winder tool. I’m busy with a video on it, for those interested.

Diafix for train wheels on the top plate was my biggest frustration, because they sit under the autoworks reduction wheel. If you don’t have an auto oiler, you’re going to be swearing. A lot. Almost impossible to remove, clean, lube and fit back the cap jewel without something going wrong. I now have many ‘donor movements’ because of missing/broken/beaten cap springs.

Edited April 23, 2022 by gbyleveldt

[VWatchie]

4 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

I’m busy with a video on it, for those interested.

I am very interested! Please let me know if/when you get done with it!

5 minutes ago, gbyleveldt said:

If you don’t have an auto oiler, you’re going to be swearing.

Indeed. I have an auto-oiler (Bergeon 1A as seen in this video of mine) but still prefer to use an Incabloc oiler for these extremely small cap jewels as I feel it gives me more control. As I remember it even the automatic oiler is too large for these tiny cap jewels (I could be wrong about that, hmm...)

Speaking of Vostok and Seiko. Believe it or not, this "Amphibian" houses a Seiko NH35A and it's not a Franken watch (click here for more info).

[gbyleveldt]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I am very interested! Please let me know if/when you get done with it!

Indeed. I have an auto-oiler (Bergeon 1A as seen in this video of mine) but still prefer to use an Incabloc oiler for these extremely small cap jewels as I feel it gives me more control. As I remember it even the automatic oiler is too large for these tiny cap jewels (I could be wrong about that, hmm...)

Speaking of Vostok and Seiko. Believe it or not, this "Amphibian" houses a Seiko NH35A and it's not a Franken watch (click here for more info).

Heh, your video was the first one that popped up on YT search on how to use the auto oiler, so that was a great help at the time. Thanks for that! I only use the auto oiler on those two specific cap jewels on the top bridge. All other cap jewels I do the traditional way. I’m a little Seiko obsessed so that’s what I focus on.

Interesting you mention NH35 movements in Vostok. From what I remember, Meranom is big pals with the Vostok factory, so they do special SE limited versions of watches for him. There’s quite a few 420SE versions that you can only get through Meranom, not through any other Vostok reseller. Of course they only make a limited amount, so they are highly collectible.

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

I’m a little Seiko obsessed so that’s what I focus on.

Ah, that's good to know! I wish I could be as well as Seiko creates such affordable, well working, and beautiful watches. I got to do one soon again. Perhaps my skills have improved enough now that those tiny cap jewels won't kill me.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Ah, that's good to know! I wish I could be as well as Seiko creates such affordable, well working, and beautiful watches. I got to do one soon again. Perhaps my skills have improved enough now that those tiny cap jewels won't kill me.

I  will have to get an ebay budget piece  to try.

[gbyleveldt]

23 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I am very interested! Please let me know if/when you get done with it!

Finally got it done after lots of agony. If mods aren’t happy with me posting video they welcome to delete it

 

 

[Paul80]

On 4/23/2022 at 11:24 AM, VWatchie said:

WARNING: 100 % OT!

 

1. Plastic parts. Sure, I know, it's an emotional argument. The plastic is of top quality and will probably last for as long as the metallic parts(?). But still, plastic! In my opinion it just doesn't belong in a mechanical movement.

Anyway, I spend a lot of time looking at Seiko watches. They're just so very, very pretty!

 

It's not just Seiko or the Japanese that sneek plastic parts in, just watched a strip down video of an Omega Seamaster and that also had a couple of plastic parts, if it's good enough for the Japanese it's good enough for the Swiss.

Any other Swiss maker using plastic ?

[VWatchie]

11 hours ago, Paul80 said:

just watched a strip down video of an Omega Seamaster and that also had a couple of plastic parts

So, a hundred years from now these watches can't be repaired, unless we then have 3D-printers able to manufacture these parts in an acceptable quality.

[Paul80]

I suspect a 100 years from now 3D printing would have advanced to such a level that 99% of any mechanical watch could be 3D printed to a tolerance greater than the original manufacturer.

Or a 100 years from now no one will be interested in vintage watches as no one could afford one after paying that days gas and electric bill, yes it's so expensive you get billed daily.

[TimpanogosSlim]

On 4/23/2022 at 3:50 AM, VWatchie said:

I'm afraid I don't know, but I'd be extremely surprised to learn they weren't using their own oils. Anyway @Poljot provided us with this post containing a link to Russian Moebius alternatives. Haven't tried them though but I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they were really good.

We don't often think about it and I believe we often underestimate the Russians, but I believe Russian technology is far more advanced then we'd like to think it is. Just consider their space technology, their hypersonic missiles, their military and civilian aviation industry, and so on. Not to mention their amazing culture when it comes to authors, composers, artists, architecture, and so on. From an historical, technological, and cultural point of view, Russia is perhaps one of the richest countries in Europe. And just to make sure; no, I do not support the appalling war, and I'm not Russian!

 

Before the end of the cold war, it was largely a mystery how the soviets were able to make entire submarine hulls out of welded titanium, because titanium is nearly impossible to weld in the presence of oxygen. 

It turned out that they had basically immense pools where the entire hull structure would be immersed in water, and then the water was pumped out as argon gas was pumped in. 

Welders would climb down ladders into these pools of argon gas wearing essentially scuba gear to weld in the low-oxygen environment, and if they didn't pay attention to their tank gauges they ran the risk of asphyxiation if they didn't start back up the ladder soon enough, and many, many welders died this way. 

It wasn't so much a "technology" as it was something they were willing to do. In much the same way that cosmonauts were expected to jump out of a capsule over land with a parachute and hike to the nearest telephone. I hear that after the first soviet space walk, the cosmonaut discovered that between the pressure differential and the heat of the sun on his suit, his suit had expanded so much that he could not re-enter through the hatch and ultimately had to release air by disconnecting a glove. 

It was just solid brass balls. 

Coincidentally, the soviets were producing most of the titanium in the world, and the US government, through the CIA, created literally hundreds of shell companies to purchase basically all of the titanium that the US department of defense and its contractors needed *from the soviet regime. A little bit at a time. 

In the soviet era, much was achieved out of necessity or out of a cost-no-object demand for it to be achieved. 

I'm sure that the soviet watch oils were at least on par with their contemporaries - by a mixture of IP theft and hard-nosed determination without regard for expense. Because money is just a thing we made up and when you control the central bank the money is whatever you say it is. 

The post-soviet era is another thing entirely. 

A friend and i were discussing levels of advanced technology in the ability to fabricate integrated circuits. The short version is that a dutch company called ASML has absolutely cornered the market on chip fab equipment and everyone else is either buying from them, trying to steal IP from them, or trying to catch up. 

A Taiwanese company called TSMC does most of the actual manufacturing. Really. Most of it. By a pretty good margin. 

I think the current extreme technology is like a 7nm process? And if you want to be able to do that, it's no problem, just give like 10 million dollars to ASML and apply for a license to export that technology to your own country. 

I am pretty sure that in the US we have at least close to that, though even Intel outsources some manufacture to TSMC. 

China is projected to do over 11 billion dollars worth of business with ASML this year, but the USA has been lobbying hard to prevent an export license to china for the highest tech fab systems, which they have already paid for. 

The highest density IC technology manufactured in Russia is 65nm. This is basically 1997 technology. 

That's basically as long as Putin has been running the show, right? 

[Mark]

I think this thread has gone off topic. Closing, a new thread can be started by interested parties if needed.