Lubricants

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes that was supposed to be there did you look at it?

Thanks, and yes, I did look at it rather carefully (which could possibly have been concluded in my reply!?)

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting things are compared the 2804 – 2 with the document I attached above it noticed how much more of the stuff they're using the little use it everywhere almost

As I mentioned in my previous post, what surprised me was that they now recommend FixoDrop for the bridges, but I also just noticed for the main plate. Other than that my impression is that FixoDrop is applied rather sparingly, rather than "everywhere almost"  So, going through the document you linked to, only the following parts are treated with epilame:

Winding stem
Winding pinion
Sliding pinion
Main plate
Train wheel bridge
Barrel bridge

No mentioning treating the following parts with epilame:

Setting lever
Yoke
Setting lever spring
Pallet stone impulse surfaces
Setting wheel

So, perhaps it is just Omega making abundant use of epilame?

[nickelsilver]

I've been using Fixodrop since I was in school, it's just automatic for me, so I don't really think about it. Escape wheel, pallet stones, and cap jewels. A 100ml bottle easily lasts me a year, in which time I might do 200 or so overhauls (I don't only repair watches, otherwise that figure would probably double or more, and I wouldn't be surprised if the 100ml lasted through that quantity). At about 120 pounds or 160 dollars for the bottle, per watch cost is under a buck per watch. If a customer is paying me the going rate for professional work, which I would like to think is equal to (at least) factory level, it's not even a question whether it's worth it or not.

 

I recently started doing some vintage overflow work for a factory, and like John says, they want practically the whole watch treated with Fixodrop. Obviously my usage will go up, even if I might only do 5 or so of these per month, but I'm still pretty sure that 100ml with cover the year. Regardless, they understand the cost and the work is paid accordingly.

 

For hobby work, it really is a question of whether or not one feels like shelling out the money. 9415 is such a terrific escapement lubricant it really does stay put far better than 9010 and thus the need for epilame is lessened.

[VWatchie]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I've been using Fixodrop since I was in school, it's just automatic for me, so I don't really think about it. Escape wheel, pallet stones, and cap jewels.

I have a few question that I (and hopefully others) would like to hear your take on.

Q1. When you treat the escape wheel, do you treat the entire wheel or just the teeth?

Treating the cap jewels seems like a really great idea, and I never thought of it as a possibility. I use an automatic oiler (Bergeon 1A) mostly because the oil has a tendency to spread asymmetrically over the cap jewel when applied with an oiler. Treating the cap jewel with epilame should make it a lot easier to apply the right amount of oil in the right spot using an oiler. I really have to try this!

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I recently started doing some vintage overflow work for a factory, and like John says, they want practically the whole watch treated with Fixodrop.

Q2. What parts do they not want treated with Fixodrop? This is the question I am most curious to get answered!

Q3. I have never treated any large parts such as the main plate and the bridges. I have an epilame bottle with a mesh basket, but how would I treat the large parts? Can I simply lower them in glass jar, let them soak for a while, and then pick them up?

Q4. Can Fixodrop be reused? Perhaps "a stupid question", but I'm thinking that as long as the parts being soaked are clean to a clinical state, no contamination should occur and so I would assume the answer is yes. On second thought, the answer must be yes, or your 100 ml bottle wouldn't last you a year and 200 overhauls. I guess this was a stupid question! 

Q5. Being a hobbyist doing less then 10 movements per year, how important is it to respect the expiration date?

Edited March 28, 2022 by VWatchie

[nickelsilver]

I have a few question that I (and hopefully others) would like to hear your take on.

Q1. When you treat the escape wheel, do you treat the entire wheel or just the teeth?

I treat the whole wheel. For the fork, I just treat the jewels. When I went to school they taught us to do the whole fork, then somewhere along the way they determined it was bad to have Fixodrop on the pivots and fork end that interacts with the roller jewel, but now it seems it can go either way, haha. I just do the jewels anyway. The only issue is ideally you soak the part in the Fixodrop x amount of time; doing just the jewels that isn't possible.

Q2. What parts do they not want treated with Fixodrop? This is the question I am most curious to get answered!

 

Similar to what John posted above, the balance primarily.

Q3. I have never treated any large parts such as the main plate and the bridges. I have an epilame bottle with a mesh basket, but how would I treat the large parts? Can I simply lower them in glass jar, let them soak for a while, and then pick them up?

 

That's basically what I do for all parts. I have a 30ml lab bottle with about a 22mm opening, and I keep maybe 10-15ml of Fixodrop in it. I dip the parts, then set them to dry. It's small enough that if one falls in I can get it out with tweezers, and it keeps me from potentially contaminating a larger quantity if I accidentally stick something in there that's dirty. For the larger parts like mainplate, in the past I have wicked up some Fixodrop with a closed pair of number 5 tweezers and deposited it where I want. For the new gig with the manufacturer I will get another small lab bottle with a wider mouth and dip them.

Q4. Can Fixodrop be reused? Perhaps "a stupid question", but I'm thinking that as long as the parts being soaked are clean to a clinical state, no contamination should occur and so I would assume the answer is yes. On second thought, the answer must be yes, or your 100 ml bottle wouldn't last you a year and 200 overhauls. I guess this was a stupid question! 

 

Yes, you can use the same Fixodrop to treat many parts. But it is so volatile that I feel at some point it's best to pitch it and start with fresh. That's why I start with maybe 15ml in my little bottle, and when it gets really low, I wipe it out with a paper towel (and let it evaporate off that), clean, then start fresh.

Q5. Being a hobbyist doing less then 10 movements per year, how important is it to respect the expiration date?

 

I don't think the expiration date matters at all. For oil and grease they only started putting one a few years back, and I had an older bottle of Fixodrop banging around here I looked at some time back during expiration date discussions and it didn't have a date either. But- it was from maybe 2005, and had lost a good 30% of its volume over 10 years. I tried it out and it seemed to work but not worth the risk in my book. But that's an open bottle, maybe halfway used, that lost 30% of what was left over 10 years, and still seemed alright. So not really a worry if it's slightly out of date I'm sure.

Edited March 28, 2022 by nickelsilver

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

As I mentioned in my previous post, what surprised me was that they now recommend FixoDrop for the bridges, but I also just noticed for the main plate. Other than that my impression is that FixoDrop is applied rather sparingly, rather than "everywhere almost"  So, going through the document you linked to, only the following parts are treated with epilame:

One of the amusements I have is with horological documentation is who should we believe? Plus the problem of when the various documents came out? For instance two separate ETA calibers were mentioned above both of them having different quantity of parts treated I suppose we should look at the date to see which one may be correct. 

Or even if we could Ignore the problem with dates who should we believe? I was in a bickering match with someone on another discussion group all because I pointed out that moebius On their current and several generations back of lubrication charts points out something that conflicts with what everyone else in Swatch group is recommending. It makes you wonder how fast technical documentation migrates from one company to another and exactly like our discussion whether the various companies even are going to listen to each other at all?

Then there is all the other bits and pieces of technical information that we may or may not ever see that have occurred over time what about that? For instance what about the balance pivots should they be treated? Seems like that might be a nice thing to do but don't think they're currently recommending it. Except Omega in a document I have the 50s they put the solution on pith wood and you push the pivot of the balance In. What about ETA I wonder what they think about that we didn't see it in either the documents that we had obviously it's a? This is where you need the ETA manufacturing information sheets in addition to their normal technical documentation they have manufacturing information sheets. This is where all the nifty technical documentation is which tells you that every single watch they have as far as I can tell all the balance staff pivots are surface treated. Yet we don't see that in any of the normal service guides.

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I've been using Fixodrop since I was in school,

I suspect That I already know which school but what year were you there?  What becomes interesting for some schools are it's always referred to as an absolute by those on the outside. Then if the students that went to the school compare notes depending upon usually the teacher It can have some dramatic differences in teaching.

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

A 100ml bottle easily lasts me a year, i

I wonder how much bigger your bottles going to have to be if you decide to treat more of the watch?

As I explained above I can't give you the whole documents and reveal the source of work comes from so I went through and snipped out almost the entire manual. I skipped over there is a little mentioned here and there but skipped over the section on how to test the solution because we would need the special oil and test plates which are only used one time they don't reuse those typically. Nice when you have really deep pockets and can throw things away.

Of course the minor problem with the documentation is it's for service center and you using huge quantities of the fluid because you're servicing lots of watches. The principle still apply because as a point out the cleaning fluids will remove prior surface treatment and they feel it has to be replied. Even if the cleaning machines that we have maybe art as efficient as what they have having a watch that's been clean several times is still go to remove the solution is the principles should still apply other then you need really deep pockets to fall the procedure.

 

 

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

This is where you need the ETA manufacturing information sheets in addition to their normal technical documentation they have manufacturing information sheets. This is where all the nifty technical documentation is which tells you that every single watch they have as far as I can tell all the balance staff pivots are surface treated. Yet we don't see that in any of the normal service guides.

Ah, that explains a lot! 

The most interesting part of the document was by far section 5. I guess the general idea is to epilame cote anything that ever gets in touch with oil or grease except for the parts listed in section 5. Generally speaking that's probably a good idea, but then again when oil and grease is applied in the right amount and on the right spots it won't spread much. At least not so much that the lubricating effect is lost (drawn away) or the lubricants spread to were they're contaminating other parts. Well, that's my theory anyway. Perhaps epilame allows for more time efficient work. That is, it will allow you to over-oil without too negative consequences. Well, I'm basically guessing here, but hopefully it will add to the discussion.

[Tiny]

This is all very interesting and quite a good read 

 

Thank you all for the information 

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The most interesting part of the document was by far section 5. I guess the general idea is to epilame cote anything that ever gets in touch with oil or grease except for the parts listed in section 5. Generally speaking that's probably a good idea, but then again when oil and grease is applied in the right amount and on the right spots it won't spread much. At least not so much that the lubricating effect is lost (drawn away) or the lubricants spread to were they're contaminating other parts. Well, that's my theory anyway. Perhaps epilame allows for more time efficient work. That is, it will allow you to over-oil without too negative consequences. Well, I'm basically guessing here, but hopefully it will add to the discussion.

One of the things we may never figure out is why do they do what they do? Although I do think there is a trend? If we look at for instance ETA 6497 like the one that I attached up above you see something similar to the document that you mentioned which is a combination of oil and grease. But let's look at an older 6497 document which if you like I can attach it but I've already attached a whole bunch of things for today. Not sure what the limit of total attachments is? A case of you look at the older document all away C for the keyless is oil.  Either HP 1300 or D5 no grease at all.  Then this particular vintage document is it really vintage is 2011. Looking through the only place that they put any grease at all is on the canon pinon.  Then of course there is zero mention of basically our current discussion of something to keep the oil from spreading we might assume they didn't use it but they did they just don't put in the document.

Who does tend to be a trend of going for heavier lubricants.

I've attached two documents that have reference to manufacturing information. Interesting separate companies but they largely look very very similar for documentation? Scroll down far enough you get the description of the components like the escape wheel as this epilame–coated, Lubrifar. Just for the fun of it I'm not throw in some additional documentation for that other word that you probably have never seen.  Which of the skip over continuing down we get to the pallet nothing interesting here yet the pallet stones and epilame–coated. Continuing down we get the balance staff and we find this Epilame–coated, flat ends. This brings up my amusement with older documentation failing to disclose that things have Epilame–coated Anything and typically insanely lite lubrication's they're going to run all over the place if they're not treated.

So mystery substance? Lubrifar Notice I've attached two separate documents has been around for a very very long time. At one time there was an expensive kit at least I assume it's expensive because it was selling at that involved a spray can with the substance and a way of holding the escape wheel it was somehow motor driven so it's been and the holder would keep the stuff off the center so only the teeth were coded. I've only seen a picture of it I'm sure is really expensive.

You also see references to it in the Omega working instruction 40 the lubrication document that you get from cousins. What I believe it typically says it washes off and once it was washed off you can't put it back and ideally Omega would like you to just replace the escape wheel.

Then I'm throwing a bonus document innocently titled Omega – oil. I think you might find it really interesting I scanned it to a PDF I think it's the oldest Omega document I have on lubrication with bonus cleaning. So basically skip over all the wonderful and interesting pages and go to page 9. What are they talking about here aware of we seen this before well they're talking about exactly what were discussing what to put our epilame On and yes both bottles basically the same substance. For those who don't want to open up the PDF I snipped out the image look what they are treating and look at the date of the document that wasn't like the printer this yesterday. Then you have to read the text above the image that I snipped out they put it on a heck of a lot of the watch don't play and they been doing this for a long time the only really amusing thing is they don't put it on the pallet fork at all including the pallet stones. Other than that it's been in use for a very long time and typically never see references to this in any of the documentation's meaning the watch companies until relatively modern times. Like the 2011 PDF I referenced there is no mention at all it's only in the last few years do they start putting everything together in one document. Except of course the manufacturing document shows a few more parts that are treated do not mentioned at all.

Now have a little light reading it should keep you busy for a while. Oh and what's the other amusement in the Omega ancient document? Choice of oils is interesting.  It's a law hard to see but if you follow the line what are they using on the keyless is that oil I see? The good old days when oils were not call the number but they have a name I'll let you figure out which oil that is and then you can tell me does it seem a little light to you? Of course maybe that's why the surface treated everything was to keep this oil from spreading all over the place.

 

 

Brochure_technique-SW300-1_19 manufacturing information.pdf ETA 2834-2 - Manufacturing Information.PDF ETA No 29 Lubrifar 7.96.PDF Omega - Calibres No 08 Lubrication of the Escapement - Lubrifar.pdf Omega-oil.PDF

[VWatchie]

@nickelsilver, thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions! Much, much appreciated! 

17 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The only issue is ideally you soak the part in the Fixodrop x amount of time; doing just the jewels that isn't possible

I too only treat the pallet stones (not the entire fork). I had a difficult time finding a working method. The method I use now is placing the fork end in a new piece of Rodico or a piece of pith wood. Then, under my stereo microscope, I use a very fine dedicated (clean) paint brush which I dip in Fixodrop and when enough has evaporated from the brush I stroke the pallet stones with a few bristles of the brush. I can see that the Fixodrop evaporates more or less immediately from the stones so I repeat this process 3 to 5 times to make sure the coating is thick enough. I tried with a small pipette but more often than not the Fixodrop would flood the arms and the pivots.

17 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Similar to what John posted above, the balance primarily.

John's pictures are very low res. but it looks like even the screws are included. I would guess that's more a matter of convenience when using a machine to treat the parts.

 

18 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

So not really a worry if it's slightly out of date I'm sure.

That's really good to know. If the expiration date were to be precisely respected I would probably have to dispose of 70 % of a 100 ml bottle each time, and that would truly make it way too expensive for me. Lesser volumes can be bought on eBay but are usually way more expensive per ml than the 100 ml offering on Cousins.

[clockboy]

 

Lubricant debates are never ending in the horological world but the truth is a watchmaker can only carry a limited amount of stock. As a result experience is used and equivalents are used. I use grease on parts of the keyless side stem etc but some use HP1300 or equivalent. I personally like the HP lubricants but to be honest was D5 really that inferior to HP 13000?

When lubricating it’s correct application is more important ie the correct amount is used. Some lubricants such as Epilame  I have found essential certainly with the auto works of a Rolex.  Although the correct lubricants seem expensive in reality they are not because of the amount required per watch or clock is tiny. For this reason I recommend only order the minimum amount at a time. 

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, clockboy said:

 I personally like the HP lubricants but to be honest was D5 really that inferior to HP 13000?

If you consider that HP1300 is fully synthetic lubricant, giving it longer duration on the application, while the D5 it is not, then yes it's superior. 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, jdm said:

If you consider that HP1300 is fully synthetic lubricant, giving it longer duration on the application, while the D5 it is not, then yes it's superior. 

At the link below you can download the tech sheets for All of lubrication including the HP and D5 oils. It's interesting when you look at the tech sheet for both of them the  HP oil is definitely better. But then there's the chart at the top of the page your standard lubrication chart simplified versus the older ones. But the peculiar thing is found at the bottom of the page I snipped out an image and  I've pasted the text below.  This is where it be really nice if they would explain why? It looks like the superior synthetic oil must have some? Definitely annoying if you want to have all synthetic oils as now you can't.

The Synt-HP oils (9101, 9102, 9103, 9104) are preferentially in use for ruby bearings. For brass bearings, we recommend Microgliss D-4 or D-5.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

 

[grsnovi]

I understand that there likely exists "service documents" that includes an oil chart. I've actually seen some  It's not clear to me if the majority of independent watchmakers rely on published oil charts or if lubrication is based on taught "best practices" and knowledge of the lubricants involved. 

How would one go about getting an oil chart for a 30 year old Zenith Elite 655 calibre?

[watchweasol]

Hi I Think the attached publications just about cover most bases. Whether you would get a specific oil chart for the Zenith is doubtful but I reckon thee BHI doc will suffice.    cheers

_BHIThePracticalLubricationofClocksandWatchesVersion2008.0.pdf moebiuslubricatingchart.pdf horotec Moebius oils book.pdf

[grsnovi]

Thanks WW

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I understand that there likely exists "service documents" that includes an oil chart. I've actually seen some  It's not clear to me if the majority of independent watchmakers rely on published oil charts or if lubrication is based on taught "best practices" and knowledge of the lubricants involved. 

Horological lubrication is it weird and interesting subject of filled with opinions. In your question really has too many variables to properly answer. Like usually everybody complains about the cost of lubrication so seldom will somebody purchase all the lubrication's required. I'm not saying people don't but it often times see people one only have one or two for cost reasons. Then there's a problem of how old your documentation is. It has to be a lot of things that influence what people do with lubrication in horology.

I'm attaching a PDF for you scroll through and there's a couple images regarding lubrication. It's a right manufacturer I'm not sure if it's actually your watch but is there lubricating one watch  in a particular way they're probably lubricating all of their watches the same way this will get you started.

Zen 650-685 Zenith.pdf

[grsnovi]

Thanks John! I had ordered a Moebius "kit" that contained 5 lubricants but it's out of stock. I'm thinking that I might cancel the order and just buy the individual components.

[nickelsilver]

Some of John's comments are directed at how lubrication has changed over time for the same caliber.

This is a matter of progress in lubrication tech i.e. better lubricants,  as well as practical observation. Regarding epimamage, old docs from John recommend it on most of the usual places. It's one of those things that definitely helps, but you're ok if you don't do it. Unless- you do this professionally and want to ensure *factory level service.

 

One thing that kills me on some modern pieces is they just won't work right long term without very specific oils and procedures. I know the purple Rolex inversers won't work right if not epilamed, that's a decades old thing. But aside from that, I would like to think we got to a state where a slight difference in viscosity or whatever doesn't make or break.

 

Anyway, if working on stuff from the last century, you can go by what some early tech guides say, thin oil here, thick oil there, grease there. If done carefully, with whatever make of oil, you're still ahead of some "factory service" I've seen.

 

*from above, I've been handed things "ex factory service" where the customer was ready to toss the watch, and after fishing out a screw dancing aound (under tightened) or cleaning out the Incablocs that had been flooded and then run dry, they're happy and the watch is happy. Of course it means a whole new overhaul as you have to to guarantee the work. I remember one of my classmates went to a factory service center and 1st day his boss implored him to "fill up the incablocs, they keep coming back as returns bone dry!". He found a new job.

Edited April 2, 2022 by nickelsilver

[grsnovi]

Thanks Nickelsilver! I'm mostly through with my cleaning and I'm going to need to make a decision: wait on my order? cancel and order individuals or seek an alternative supplier. It's all good

[Klassiker]

What is in the kit?

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

What is in the kit?

Actually have two Kits I've only ever seen the one for mechanical watches though. Unless they're giving away a bottle or two for free I'm not sure it's really a good price. Then for me it definitely would not be a good price as I never use 9010. I prefer 9020 which is not in the kit. Then there is the peculiarity of 9501 and 9504. Which are basically identical except 9504 as additional boron high-pressure lubricant mixed in. I don't know why you would need both of them 19504 would work just fine. But if you excluded my preference and 9020 versus 9010 other than the extra bottle of  grease  and that the price was good which it probably isn't it might be that it would be a fine kit.

Then googling came up with that link $209. Problem with the website is we can apply these lubricants in the sizes that they have in the kit but casually it looks like the kit might actually be a good price if you could use all the various lubricants.

https://www.jewelerssupplies.com/lubricant-kit-for-mechanical-watches-moebius-640.8500.K.html

[Klassiker]

I would not buy the kit. Like John says, it isn't good value for money, even If you need all of those lubricants, which you don't. Buy individually in the smallest quantities you can find. Drop the 9501, but add some silicone grease for gaskets (doesn't need to be Bergeon), and some braking grease If you are going to work on automatics.

[JohnR725]

21 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I would like to think we got to a state where a slight difference in viscosity or whatever doesn't make or break.

We were probably at that point a very long time ago but?

Excluding the specialty location like as you mentioned Rolex reversers or basically any of the automatic reverser wheels or even the ball bearing assembly for the weight. Excluding the most important the escapement basically everything else could be almost anything I don't really think it's all that important. As long as the lubrication is a horological lubrication designed for long-term use.

Not sure why but personally I still find it just a very amusing subject. Gathering up horological lubrication guides suggestions books whatever over time. Being amused with the various suggestions in the tech sheets that seemingly don't make a lot of sense. Like insanely thin oils on the setting components and not always telling us that they surface treated to keep those insanely thin lubricants where there supposed to be. Or Seiko is confusion over whether they should oil a pallet fork pivots are not. Some watches they do some they don't and some as they revise the document multiple times will alternate as to whether they do or do not. Then the greatest amusements is the discussion groups as people are trying to figure out what the heck they're supposed to be doing and everyone has an opinion.

 

[canthus]

Many years ago in my work as a lubrication advisor, I visited factories to 'survey' them for lubricants requirements.  I always asked the incumbent 'oiler' what he currently used as a first step.  Normally I would get a list of several lubes, but at one factory the response was  "ground floor machines use thick oil, first floor machines use thin oil".    Says it all?

[LittleWatchShop]

I feel so much better now.