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JohnR725 last won the day on August 9

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About JohnR725

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  1. JohnR725

    Timegrapher microphone

    it's not really the end of the world for this as they make inexpensive switching regulator modules. Then I've ordered another USB module to power this and try it anyway off the 5 volts. I found one that's nice and quiet with a bonus feature of on the backside of the circuit board square solder pads for the power connections. Then what I find interesting is if you find a part made by multiple of manufacturers a lot of times you find that the specifications aren't always exactly the same for the same part? so right now I was looking at a tech sheet first one was interesting shows the +6 V with no clarifications? Then on the same tech sheet it shows plus and minus voltages with + -5? Then the TI sheet makes a clarification which is you can have differing voltages for the plus and minus as long as the total is 10. 10 is considerably higher than the Chinese 5.91. then back to the TI data sheet and noticed what you have above which is very very confusing. So the minimum says (+5 equals 5, +/-5=10) then there is the number 7? So we get a plus minus voltage situation the total has to be 10 but here it says the minimum is seven? It's really a shame they didn't go with one of the modern op amps that's designed to run a lower voltages and a lot of them are low noise or lower noise. so as I have the microphone and Monday hopefully another USB adapter shows up I'm going to try at 5 V anyway because I can.
  2. JohnR725

    Pocket watch balance poising

    I found Mark has two separate videos explains things a little bit differently. He uses a slightly different method to determine where the hairspring goes. then he shows in the second video using a balance tack I don't like that as I worry about stretching the hairspring so I remove the balance wheel when rotating the collet I use a different method it into it with a hairspring in place it's easier if it's not in place. I have the balance wheel in the watch with its bridge you rotate the balance wheel until the watch is visually in beat as Mark shows in his video. Then using a felt pen place a mark on the balance rim corresponding to where the stud will go. then the balance wheel out of the watch you can now rotate collet until the stud lines up with the mark you made. then if the balance wheel is out of the watch when you're rotating the collet makes it really easy to see that the stud is now lined up with the mark you made. then for rotating the collet they actually make a special tool which I show in the pictures. I preferred the tool over the screwdriver method. But more than likely you don't have the tool. the main difference between the tool and the screwdriver blade is the tool has a long taper and is almost flat at the end. This allows the tool to be inserted into the collet slot without spreading the collet. there's a danger with screwdrivers of pushing it into the slot and spreading the collet making it loose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9tOHiPQpbw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvMCNyrDZQo
  3. JohnR725

    Balance wheel truing

    because balance wheels truing can get complicated I have a link. go to the bottom of the page Joseph School of Watch Making you'll see a section on balance wheel truing. I have an image from the book to understand the key feature of the tool. Notice how the staff is resting on the conical or cone part of the staff as the book calls it? then the tool needs to be adjusted so it's holding really tight. That means there is a zero danger of breaking the pivots off your supposed to true the balance wheel in the truing caliper. other things to watch out for sometimes truing calipers have holes on both ends for different size balance wheels. If you don't have that clearance you'll break the pivots off. So you have to be on the cone of the pivots. then not all the schools will have a double set of holes. Sometimes the other end is used for truing wheels. Other things you want to check on make sure your holes really are clear and that somebody didn't break something off before you. then just to review things you may want to look the other sections on staffing. http://www.mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs
  4. JohnR725

    Timegrapher microphone

    image attached of their amplifier board. so the board has a single op amp looking at the TI data sheet looks like the lowest of the normal operating voltage is 5 volts. Which should work perfect with the 5 V of the USB port. I was kinda hoping the most it would need is a volume adjustments on the output in case it was too much for the microphone input of the computer.
  5. JohnR725

    Pocket watch balance poising

    First off we assume that the watch always had the regulator in the zero everything was always perfect it may not have been. If it's been worked on especially the older watches that is the pocket watches things get changed the chance of the regulator going back to zero is almost 0. This is also where I really like before and after timing results which unfortunately can't be done with the balance staff issue. Added weight? If you added weight to poise the roller jewel issue the watch will now run slow. Typically when you're poising your removing weight because that's usually the easiest thing to do. Then the balance wheel is to light you'll have to add timing washers but? before adding timing washers make sure the regulator is back at zero. then the mean time screws in poising? The mean time screw purpose is for regulation I'm attaching a chart. True it's a chart for Hamilton but you can see the effect of moving the screws in it out changes the rate of the watch. so they can be used for tiny poising issues but in a dramatic moving you're going to screw up timekeeping. All of the normal screws need to be in tight not so tight that they break off which they will do occasionally. They need to stay stationary. then depending upon the cleaning machine sometimes they loosen up and they may just a bit loose before. It's always good just to check their down. In a ideal perfect world when restaffing you mark where the hairspring stud is and the roller jewel is. Typically though I do not mark where the hairspring is. If I knew they hairspring stud was where it's supposed to be because the watch was in beat yes but I find it's easier to figure out where they hairspring study is supposed to go by visually verify that the balance is in beat and then putting the hairspring there. then the collet slot it doesn't have to go in any exacting position other than its position determines where the stud goes. On some watches more common on modern the shape of a collet is done for poising purposes.
  6. JohnR725

    Pocket watch balance poising

    The wording of this is very interesting did you remove the screws on the balance wheel? The screws on the balance wheel are really interesting they all looked the same don't they? The only problem is with the exception of the mean time screws all the rest of the screws conceivably visually look the same but may not weigh the same. Then screws on the balance wheel are in pairs whatever is on one side has to be on the other side they have to match in weight otherwise you will have a poising issue. So basically you always leave the screws alone. You do want to check though usually after you ran the balance in the cleaning machine that they are still screwed tight in place. If they start to unscrew it causes an uneven a balance wheel. Then on these early balance wheels when they were manufactured the wheel itself may not actually be poised they use the screws to do that in which case the screws have to go back to where they are found. If this was a bimetallic balance wheel then the screws are in a very exacting position for temperature compensation. Moving these around would cause interesting timing problems with temperature you probably never be able to get them back to where they were.. Dynamic poising as great except remember you can’t dynamically poise until you statically poise. Then if you do a really good job with static poising especially on pocket watches usually don’t have to dynamically poise unless you’re trying for railroad timekeeping. The mean time screws ideally visually they should be in the same position. In other words one on one side should be in the same position as the other one once again they need to be matched in weight to keep the balance wheel poised. They can be used for minor poising that’s not the real purpose it’s really for timekeeping. Then try to remember not to play with these too much they have a habit of getting loose if they been over adjusted.
  7. JohnR725

    Pocket watch balance poising

    besides the definition of pocket watch can you give us a little more details? Depending upon when the pocket watches made or if it's really low-quality poising really isn't an issue. then if it's an American pocket watch with a bimetallic balance wheel you need to true the balance wheel before poising. It's amazing how much screwed up timekeeping can occur when the arms have been squeezed. Then when you put the roller table back on did you put it in the same position it was found? often times people don't mark where the roller table was and then they wonder why they're having a problem with poise. Then you made the reference to the balance screws being in different positions? did you do anything about that because if the screws are out that screws up the poise. Except you have to be careful you could have mean time screws there supposed to be out although occasionally people don't know what they are and they screw them in nice and tight quite irritating when they do that.
  8. JohnR725

    Timegrapher microphone

    The reason I asked if your microphone would work with the other software is it gives you a selling opportunity to sell microphones to people who like this discussion need a microphone. but we would have to see that it actually does work with the other software as you commented the various software processes things differently so that might not work. Then for the Chinese microphone I measured the voltages today. So for the 1000 the internal analog circuitry is being run at basically + and -6 V. Even though there is a 6 V regulator in their the 6 V is really 5.91 V and that is on one of the pins for the microphone. Having seen the op amp in the microphone itself I suspect it should run off the 5 V of the USB. So anyone curious of the microphone if you do a search on eBay for Timegrapher microphone quite a few come up at amusing prices. So the very cheapest one isn't the cheapest because they charge shipping. Then I'm attaching an image notice 2 identical microphones at not an identical price? the amusing aspect of the $110 microphone is you could just buy the machine with the microphone for just a little more money it's not worthwhile but I guess are assuming nobody does price checking. so the $75 microphone is what I was looking at should be identical to the one that came with the machine. Although in the past they used to say the separate microphone was enhanced I think it's more of a mechanical enhancement. Then the third microphone has a different connector and goes with an entirely different series of machines
  9. As already mentioned garnet was popular at one time. Then if you look really carefully at your jewels notice the Sapphire in pocket watches looks different than the modern wristwatch? Pocket watches typically have pale jewels sometimes a little mixed in color they almost always have flaws because their natural Sapphire. If Wikipedia's correct synthetic sapphires don't come into existence until 1902 with a much better process in 1916 which would mean full scale production for watches probably wouldn't occur to at least the 1920s possibly even later. Then the source of the sapphires used in American pocket watches is typically from the state of Montana which is really big in natural Sapphire production. Then also mentions pocket watches are big and heavy and they don't like to be dropped on the floor or drops just about anywhere. Worst case hard impact of the balance assembly you lose both pivots and cracking or destroying the hole jewels and worse case I've seen cracked cap jewels. Because natural stones tend to be naturally flawed you're going to see cracks in the stones. So what you have to do is figure out whether that natural flaw or crack is an issue? You need to look very carefully at each jewel look at the hole is it smooth even with a crack? Look at the pivots are they smooth if everything looks smooth and you don't see a problem just leave it alone. sometimes even with a visible crack the pivots are fine it depends upon the angle of crack. balance jewels you're not going to be that lucky usually if there's a crack it's going to be a bad crack other times the hole is going to be anything but round and is usually going to have sharp edges. Then why am I advising you to keep flawed place? on modern wristwatches typically you see a problem you just replace the part on 100-year-old pocket watch even American pocket watch that the parts were available jewels probably aren't available anymore. out of curiosity I'm looking at the 1915 Elgin parts catalog? Looks like way more of the jewels were available then I thought plus they come in all sorts of colors. The various shades of red from pale to rosy are described as Ruby, Sapphire I assume is blue then of course garnet is mentioned and for some cap stones diamond. so if this was 1915 no problem but today replacing all the jewels that's going to be an interesting challenge.
  10. JohnR725

    Timegrapher microphone

    The reason your circuit does not work with the guitar mic pic up Is it's been designed for a capacitive microphone which has a built in amplifier. I have a image below of what capacitive microphone circuit looks like internally. Then the reality is you don't need the circuit because computers have that built as it was designed for capacitive microphone. Guitar pickups are typically piezo it require a different type of preamplifier to work with the computer. Then regarding the computer they're all different. The last link I have below is a US patents for a different kind a microphone not relevant for this discussion. The relevant part of the patent for this discussion is different input circuitry or specifically the bias voltages. This becomes relevant if you're trying to power your microphone off the biased voltage of the computer. The voltages are all conceivably different. If you start looking at the integrated circuits found in computers circuitry microphones a lot of them will supply different voltages. Then regarding the computers audio processing some computers it's almost an afterthought they weren't designed for audio high fidelity others are better. So if you have everything else works right you may have a crappy computer input. One of the ways around that is to get a USB sound device. Another advantage of USB devices is you can steal 5 V off the power four your circuitry. then below I've listed out some of the software-based timing machines there are or were others. Because were discussing microphones and some of these sell the microphones separate or they will convert microphones for their software. In other words there relevant for this discussion. So software ranges from free to costing some money the pickup is what were concerned about. Watch Escapement Analyser - eTimer if you look at the eBay link you can see the microphone a clip on microphone is really nice unfortunately it's not sold separately. Also notice they're using a USB device. But if you go to the UK source he will convert older watch timing machines by adding in new circuitry. So that's an option you get a microphone that rotates it just not cheap. PCTM s interesting if you look at the discussion the circuitry for the microphone is given. Plus the person who wrote the software is in this discussion I was hoping he could try an experiment for us? if you look at the price list a variety of microphones are available separately I'm curious as to whether the microphone works with the other free software out there? Another option for a DIY microphone is to start with something that we know that works? the Chinese on eBay sell their microphone separate from the timing machines it runs around $80. It looks like they've loosely copied witschi there is a Bimorph sensor with a dual op amp which should supply enough signal to the computer. this is on my list of projects to do which is one of the reasons I bought a cheap slightly used 1000 machine off of eBay was to hack the microphone. Unfortunately my list of things to do is rather long and it's not at the top of the list. Windows Software Timing Machine PCTM https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/6333-windows-software-timing-machine-pctm/?tab=comments#comment-63918 https://c.web.de/@337134913998293880/YuEh_TobSjaCfyBDix_1gg Open source timing software https://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/open-source-timing-software-2542874.html https://github.com/vacaboja/tg Watch Escapement Analyser - eTimer https://www.ebay.com/itm/112473962615?ul_noapp=true http://www.delphelectronics.co.uk/products.html Watch-O-Scope - D. I. Y. Watch Timing Machine http://www.watchoscope.com/ https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/ Amplifier circuit for electret microphone with enhanced performance https://patents.google.com/patent/US6580797B1/en?oq=6580797
  11. JohnR725

    The main spring is lossing it moment

    It would've been nice to get a picture of the barrel walls we could see what you're talking about? Then I have the same question already been asked type of breaking grease used? Then regarding breaking grease a recent discussion on that found that the link below. https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/9490-regarding-automatic-mainspring/#comment-87137
  12. JohnR725

    Timegrapher microphone

    Software-based timing machines are quite nice but as some of you a found out getting a proper signal in is a challenge. There are quite a few challenges to get the software to work you need a proper microphone to pick up the tiny vibrations of the watch. The problem with most microphones are designed for audio pickups we want to pick up vibrations. Some of the music industries microphones work the only problem is there designed for a greater vibration. Then the popular piezo Discs have to be properly mounted to pick up the vibrations and still need to be shielded from audio because they will pick up audio. Then the preamp needs to be low noise and ideally should have some internal filtering. They are very specific frequency ranges for watch pickup versus the music industry. Computer-based microphones that includes the microphones found in cell phones with apps for timing. They're designed for audio pick up picking up the rate of the watch relatively easy getting the rest of the signals can be problematic at times. We've already had one discussion where the people trying to help were annoyed because the pickup was faulty and was giving false readings.work the software-based machines are nice. Then one of the reasons software-based timing machines are popular is they range from free to relatively cheap for the most part. That's because originally hardware-based timing machines were very expensive. To buy a decent Swiss machine will cost you several thousand dollars for instance. But the Chinese make some really decent machines in particular theTimegrapher 1000 or 1900. Both machines are really decent 1900 has a slightly nicer screen. Pricewise the 1900 is just under $200 1000 is around $150 typically on eBay and there's a dealer that sells these in the US at $120. For an out-of-the-box solution for something that works with a microphone that rotates in multiple positions the price is very reasonable. Then as a reminder especially because the person asking the question is new to the group a timing machine is used for more than timing it's a diagnostic tool. So even for hobbyists because of the affordable price the Chinese machines or the software if you get everything to work they have become must have tools. http://www.acetimer.com/Timing-Machine/
  13. JohnR725

    Why has the beat error changed ?

    How do you know that the lift angle is 58°? I'm looking at something that indicates it's 48°? Then the Chinese 1000 timing machine is quite decent I doubt it's missing the first part of the waveform. Usually what the problem with waveform pickups on the Chinese machine are super low amplitude. The super low amplitude the middle part of the waveform looks like the ending part you get a really nice looking amplitude and visually the balance wheels motion totally sucks. It really doesn't take that much to change the Beat in the watch. For instance put the watch on the timing machine in one of the dial positions note the beat. Then rotate to a pendant position try several of them notice how the beat changes? Gravity is pulling the hairspring down it's causing a very tiny rotation of the balance wheel shows up as a beat error. Remove the balance wheel from the bridge and any distortion of the spring will show up as something. Even though the stud is a nice shape there is a little bit a play in the hole This means you're always going to have a little bit a movement here that's will cause changes. If you really want to see spectacular before and after changes in timing do an American pocket watch. The cleaning machine tends to loosen up the timing screws and I have a suspicion the drying temperature isn't good for the bimetallic balance wheel. There is usually quite interesting timing differences before and after on the older watches.
  14. Finding these citizen meteor on eBay for instance is going to be really tough it occasionally shows up but very seldom. Then Seiko had two analog meters the second one was identical to the citizen and two additional digital meters. I find almost none of these ever show up on eBay. Finding suitable digital meters is easy finding suitable microamp meters analog is not. Typically the lowest range analog meter you find is 50 µA occasionally you might find a 25 µA but it's usually expensive. The options would be to get a higher range analog meter and Bill the circuit to make it into a microamp meter. Or just give up and go with digital. Personally I really like an analog meter when I'm working on quartz watches for measuring the current consumption. For everything else I use a digital meter. Then there is another option that I almost forgot about so I'm attaching a picture and a picture of the sins meter so you know what you're looking for. Then attached to the bottom of the analog meter is the power source it lets you use a larger battery. The other option is Bulova meter is a nice big meter with a nice low current range. I think Bulova may even have a tech sheet of showing how to use that for quartz watch if you're interested I'll have to look for it. It basically needs a big capacitor to smooth out the readings.
  15. JohnR725

    regarding automatic mainspring

    So we are skipping over the lubrication for worms were going to have enough controversy in this discussion. Then I'd like to get away from the word controversy and perhaps change it to confusion? Other things to add to confusion is knowledge that were missing? Finding particular examples of lubrication may not apply to what were doing because of missing knowledge. We know from the example above from Omega some mainspring barrels have notches this reduces the surface area so you could conceivably use a much stronger breaking grease and be equivalent to a solid barrel wall with a lighter breaking grease. At least that's my wild guess less surface area. Then steel spring versus the modern springs or brass barrel versus aluminum. Or whether the spring is prelubricated or not. I've even seen a reference that supposedly the modern steels the super fine polish don't need Lubrication? Then I'm still bothered with the question we carefully lubricate our barrel wall if we put any other lubrication's on the spring will they migrate to the barrel wall? If they do make it the barrel wall will it screw up the breaking grease? So I went back to the technical information see how confusing it could be for us. I'm attaching images some of the images I put dates so we can see the earlier version versus the modern because I have zero idea the order in which the images get attached. Images of mainspring packages notice that two of them say the Springs are prelubricated. Sometimes is found on packages other times it's not and typically you can't see the lubrication sometimes it has a whitish look Sometimes. Omega is nice lots of technical documentation being continuously updated. Then they tend to break things up in the lots of separate instructions. So one of the working instructions tells us all the lubrication's they recommend others like above tells us how to apply the lubrication. So notice the image from 2006 versus 2015 the number of lubrication's related to mainsprings has dropped. Rolex equally confusing they give their students notebooks lubrication information included. Forgot to put the year on the image but it is 2009. So in the image they use tepa which is that weird white lubricant that Is applied to the barrel wall which in the video looks excessive. The barrel arbor is lubricated with MR4 and it doesn't say how it gets there the entire surface the mainspring is also lubricated with MR4. Then equally confusing notice in the image the reference to MR1? Yet nowhere in the manual doesn't tell you what this is. Then from 1999 a reference to mr4 and mr1. Then I didn't captured but there was another image showing the barrel assembled with the reference to the MR4 on the arbor but HP-1000 where the arbor goes into the plates. Then continuing on with our Rolex theme website link.There are some older images of lubrication requirements where the barrel wall is lubricated with MR1 and zero lubrication applied to the mainspring. Then the list of lubrication's notice that 8200's listed but he's recommending 8141 instead. Scroll down to Moebius 8217 Where you'll see that's to be applied to the barrel wall which we already know and 8141 the coils. http://www.horologist.com/images/RolexOilChart7.jpg So anyone not confused yet?