Lubricants

[Wouter]

The issue at hand is that initial investment is high. Now I do have a selection of good lubricants for vintage cameras and shutters. This might sound like sacrilege, but the shutter mechanics do resemble watch mechanics to a certain extend. On shutters a variety of lubricants is used very sparely. Among these, molybdenum paste, graphite powder, lithium grease and Nyoil (a very thin oil used to lubricate pivots). These are all supposed to provide long-term but locally restricted lubrication. Have any of you experimented with these lubricants on watches?

[TimpanogosSlim]

Nye did develop some horological lubricants for Hamilton back in the day, and they still make them. 

Moly-disulfide grease and lithium grease are probably fine on keyless works and manual-wind mainsprings. The moly might even work ok on automatic barrels, only experimentation will tell us. I vaguely recall someone recently reporting good results with a Chevron moly grease that is roughly the same consistency as Klueber grease for chrono parts. 

Nye clock oil is highly regarded in some circles. Nye 140C and 140B are (or were) marketed for wristwatches. There's also "Nye Fulcrum" oil which is apparently another product and the SDS sheet says it is about half derived from olive oil. 

My guess is that for practice it might be fine to use the nyoil you have, and if that doesn't work out and you still have budget restrictions, you could pick up a vial of Moebius 8000 for $10ish. 

Some of the Novostar oils are good and economical too, but they can be a little trickier to find, though there are sources in the US. Like this: https://www.watchmaterial.com/novastar-type-b-oil-ol-nov-b2/

Some years ago there was a project at another forum to compile a viscosity chart containing all of the currently available lubricants. It wasn't entirely successful but did produce some useful data. Note that the use of the silicone oils on this chart is very controversial, particularly as being "pure" silicone it is questionable whether or not they spread over time. There's no data available on them other than what is on the label, which isn't much. Only a couple supply houses carry them. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by TimpanogosSlim

[Wouter]

Thank you this is very helpful!

[Albertros]

Hi,

I just bought an oil and grease from an auction site. Anochor brand. Neither bottle  top would fit properly and I was niggled.

I've now talked myself out of using it. I am new to this hobby which is hard enough without introducing dubious products.

 

So can you recommend an oil and a grease. Plus where to buy it from. This stuff is dearer than printer ink but should last a beginner ages.

I am looking at seiko and mechanical movements and anything inspired by youtube.

Many thanks

[watchweasol]

Hi   The Anvhor brand is from India,  The attached documents will explain the lubricants and their uses. Hope you find this useful

_RecommendedLubricantsforGettingStarted.pdf MoebiusProductCatalogEN.pdf

[Albertros]

Sorry guys looks like I posted in the wrong section.

 

The sheets are very helpful.  I have been using cousinsuk and Gleave and co.

[TimpanogosSlim]

20 hours ago, Albertros said:

Hi,

I just bought an oil and grease from an auction site. Anochor brand. Neither bottle  top would fit properly and I was niggled.

I've now talked myself out of using it. I am new to this hobby which is hard enough without introducing dubious products.

 

So can you recommend an oil and a grease. Plus where to buy it from. This stuff is dearer than printer ink but should last a beginner ages.

I am looking at seiko and mechanical movements and anything inspired by youtube.

Many thanks

The Anchor watch oil is a mystery in the sense that we don't know who makes it or what the specifications are. 

But there are some pretty negative reports about its suitability for watches. There are multiple reports that it is pretty short-lived. 

I grew up on the edge of poor so i am extremely sympathetic to the position that Moebius lubricants are outrageously expensive, particularly for the hobbyist. If we are to adhere to the current state of the art even minimally we are required to buy 9010, 9415, D5, and 8217 and at the minimum quantities offered, that is well over $100 worth of lube and as hobbyists we will use maybe 10% of them before they are past their pull dates. And frankly, in my minor experience, Nye PML Stem Grease is superior for keyless works (so silky!) and that's another $20, though 8217 or whatever grease you got will certainly do the job. 

Moebius 8000 is affordable and just fine for watches with a 5-year service cycle. Only the wealthy adhere to a 5-year service cycle for watches, but this is more than enough for tinkering on watches for our own enjoyment. 

I've previously linked to a source for Novostar B at less than half the cost of Moebius 8000. It's an entirely respectable oil from a swiss manufacturer that isn't part of Swatch Group. 

Having a heavy oil that isn't as heavy as a barrel grease for some parts seems to be recommended but not required for practicing / learning. 

Having a special oil or grease for pallet stones such as 9415 seems to be recommended but not required for practicing / learning. 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by TimpanogosSlim

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, TimpanogosSlim said:

The Anchor watch oil is a mystery in the sense that we don't know who makes it or what the specifications are. 

But there are some pretty negative reports about its suitability for watches. There are multiple reports that it is pretty short-lived. 

It gets even more interesting is it has variable specifications? Originally anything I saw was that it hardened up really really fast and would bring your watch to stop. Definition fastest couple weeks at the most. Finding this mysterious lubrication interesting with this incredible fast gluing properties and because it was $10 a bottle I spent the money and purchased a bottle. But I was extremely disappointed? Oil was the most fluid oil I've ever seen it is super thin. Then because it is so thin it didn't seem to want to stay wherever I put it. As a consequence the test watch I did it seemed all disappear really fast. I was really hoping for fast gluing but that's not what I found not that it didn't get hard eventually. But definitely an interesting substance not suitable for watch repair though.

 

 

[TimpanogosSlim]

18 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It gets even more interesting is it has variable specifications? Originally anything I saw was that it hardened up really really fast and would bring your watch to stop. Definition fastest couple weeks at the most. Finding this mysterious lubrication interesting with this incredible fast gluing properties and because it was $10 a bottle I spent the money and purchased a bottle. But I was extremely disappointed? Oil was the most fluid oil I've ever seen it is super thin. Then because it is so thin it didn't seem to want to stay wherever I put it. As a consequence the test watch I did it seemed all disappear really fast. I was really hoping for fast gluing but that's not what I found not that it didn't get hard eventually. But definitely an interesting substance not suitable for watch repair though.

 

 

Maybe they put whatever thin oil they can get their hands on in those bottles. 

Maybe there are 36 different people putting similar labels on similar bottles containing whatever random thin oil they can lay hands on. 

I don't want to be racist, nationalist, culturist, etc, but "Anchor" does not appear to be part of the notable and noble history of India-made horological supply. 

[HectorLooi]

20 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi   The Anvhor brand is from India,  

That explains why the Mumbai specials that I buy occasionally always seem to give problems after a couple of months.

[Stewart]

On 1/28/2022 at 1:29 PM, Klassiker said:

Hi Stewart, you asked the same question yesterday in the lubricants thread (and received one reply).

I know sorry, I think I'll try the 8000 out on some of my own older tickers a long with Moebius grease, I hear ETA may be bringing a range of oils and grease lubricants out in the future, the prices don't bother me to much, I use Cousins they break large bottles of Moebius oils down into smaller quantities which make it more affordable, but I don't think using Moebius 8000 with Moebius or Novostar grease will course any damage to my older watch movements if I  service them every 3-4 years?

[Plato]

The 8000 is a good universal oil from this chart:

[Klassiker]

36 minutes ago, Stewart said:

I don't think using Moebius 8000 with Moebius or Novostar grease will course any damage to my older watch movements

Certainly not! It is perfectly good oil, if a little out of date and as John already pointed out, doesn't have the long shelf-life of the synthetics. I would have no concerns at all using it in the way you suggest.

[AndyHull]

At least you have a sporting chance of knowing what is actually in the Epilame. I did toy with the idea of sampling some watch oils while here in India. However since this is typically what is on offer...


... and since I am some what alarmed by the prospect of an oil that "comes", I decided to give them a miss.

[jdm]

On 2/25/2022 at 7:16 AM, TimpanogosSlim said:

"Anchor" does not appear to be part of the notable and noble history of India-made horological supply. 

Anchor is just a distributor brand Like Bergeon in Switzerland and Ruihua in China. Maybe there are others but at this level the only notable thing would be the price/value proposition.

[MrRoundel]

Greetings, gents. I recently made the change from my old Nye oils to some Moebius. Specifically, 9010 and 9415. I have been using 8200 for mainsprings for years. Anyway, the 9010 seems fine in most ways that I can visually figure, but it is a bit frustrating getting it to "stick" to the flat side of cap jewels. My old Nye used to take a couple of touches before it would release from my cheap oiler, but the 9010 takes numerous attempts. Sometimes I have to clean jewels off in naptha before I can get the oil to release.  Is it a surface tension thing, like what calls for epilame treatment? My eyes go haywire as I try to get the oil on the stone. Suggestions? Many thanks ahead of time. Cheers.

MrR

[Tiny]

So this morning I ordered some oil and grease from Cousins.

D5

910 

8200 grease 

do I need any different oil for a Menostart https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-GENTS-MEMOSTAR-ALARM-WATCH-/224894885111?nma=true&si=7LYbtRsXHhGKJsHffquHl1JVbFo%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

I'm also going to service and repair my ETA 2824 next 

[VWatchie]

If by "910" you mean Moebius 9010 I believe all you otherwise might want to have is a lubricant for the pallet impulse faces. I normally use Moebius 9415 but more often these days I've been using Dr. Tillwich Watch Oil 1-3 (less expensive) with good results. Anyway, I'm a hobbyist using extremely small volumes so price isn't all that important to me.

I believe I read somewhere @nickelsilver (professional) mentioned you can use 9010 for the pallets as well, but perhaps that was provided the pallets had been treated with FixoDrop!? Can't quite remember, but if that's the case (FixoDrop needed) it would be the most expensive option (FixoDrop doesn't come cheap).

Edited March 27, 2022 by VWatchie

[Tiny]

I think I can use 9010 for the pallet 

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, Tiny said:

I think I can use 9010 for the pallet 

I think so too. Anyway, it would be interesting to know for sure if FixoDrop would be a prerequisite? I'd suspect 9010 to work truly well, but the big question is for how long. It's so thin that I fear it may wear out (spread) pretty quickly. We'll see if @nickelsilver or some other pro can chime in and enlighten us. That would be great!

[Tiny]

Vwatchie thank you for your advice and recommendation I have added some  FixoDrop to my Cousins shopping basket just incase 9010 is wrong 

thank you  

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Tiny said:

I think I can use 9010 for the pallet 

Your chart is rather old it would be better to get a new one. You can download the newer chart and Also you should get the product catalog at the link below. Yes you can use 9010 but 9415 would be better. Which is missing on your chart because of its age.

21 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

FixoDrop would be a prerequisite?

Usually Any time we discussed this on the discussion group it's a generally frowned upon mainly because of its cost. If you are a modern Swiss watch company they go through it by very huge quantities. Omega currently treats almost everything in the watch every single time it serviced now. This is because The cleaning machines are better at cleaning and it removes this easier so they just retreat the entire watch.  I suppose technically is not the entire watch the usually don't do the balance and hairspring and there's like one or two other components but it's almost everything else.

For instance look at the PDF I attached. Go through look at how many times they apply to all kinds of components all over the watch to keep the oil from running away.

Or you can be like everyone else and say the heck with it because it is expensive. If you use grease on your setting components will stay where you put it you don't need the surface treat them. It is the 9415 it tends to stay wherever you put it that's better.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

ETA CT_6497-2_FDE_482448_13.pdf

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Omega currently treats almost everything in the watch every single time it serviced now.

 

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

For instance look at the PDF I attached. Go through look at how many times they apply to all kinds of components all over the watch to keep the oil from running away.

The PDF was for the ETA 6497-2. Was that intended? I was expecting something from Omega!? In it ETA basically only apply FixoDrop to some strategic parts. The one thing that surprised me was that they recommend treating the entire barrel bridge and train wheel bridge. I haven't seen that before. I use FixoDrop myself and usually limit its use to the following parts (Sample from an ETA 2804-2):

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, Tiny said:

Vwatchie thank you for your advice and recommendation I have added some  FixoDrop to my Cousins shopping basket just incase 9010 is wrong 

thank you  

If you're not on a budget, put some Moebius 9415 pallet stone oil on the list as well. It still would be an advantage to apply FixoDrop to the pallet stone impulse surfaces. However, I believe it would be a bad idea to soak the entire pallet fork in FixoDrop. If you look around you'll find plenty of interesting information about FixoDrop.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The PDF was for the ETA 6497-2. Was that intended?

Yes that was supposed to be there did you look at it? Any of the very newest a reasonably new documentation they love the use FixoDrop Not just on the pallet stones but literally almost everywhere

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

. I use FixoDrop myself and usually limit its use to the following parts (Sample from an ETA 2804-2)

Interesting things are compared the 2804 – 2 with the document I attached above it noticed how much more of the stuff they're using the little use it everywhere almost

Have you ever noticed how hard it is to get modern Omega documentation? I snipped out an image from something I got from cousins I don't know if you've ever notice that the newest documentation has that on every single Corner it's like Omega's paranoid? So we know that one time cousins had a parts account and they could get documentation and everyone knows where these PDFs came from. Do you think anyone in their right mind would give you a modern document if their name was on it or whatever the heck they worked? On the other hand maybe they could snip something out so you wouldn't see the offending watermark and where it came from

Or perhaps I could give you some text and snip out an image like this text comes out a working instruction number 80 which looks like it supersedes the previous working instruction on cleaning and surface treatment as this one is only on the surface treatment

 

In production, the components of the movement are epilame coated to maintain the lubrication in the correct place, thus ensuring many years of high accuracy and the extremely stable performance of OMEGA watches. In the past, the epilame coating properties could be maintained for up to 3-4 wash cycles in Customer Service before losing their effectiveness. The use of the new environmentally friendly Moebius ES/BS 8981 epilame solution, combined with high performance washing machines such as the Elmasolvex VA, considerably reduces the effects of epilame coating after only one wash cycle.
Therefore, in order to maintain an optimal epilame coating effect after a movement service in Customer Service, it is essential to epilame coat all the movement’s components.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by JohnR725