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Everything posted by VWatchie

  1. Thanks for the input @anilv, much appreciated! BTW, I happened to mention you in my latest video. Hope that was OK! It’s no longer a practical problem, but out of sheer curiosity I’ve given this a lot of thought and I’m still leaning towards my own of idea, although I’m still humble. I can’t see that there’s anything wrong with the click works or any other parts of the keyless works. To support my theory, as well, is the fact that after having replaced the worn-out winding pinion and clutch wheel, manual winding works perfectly. Not only is it more efficient (of course), but the mainspring has never unwound uncontrollably after the replacement of the winding pinion and the clutch wheel. So, for anyone interested here’s my “final take” on this, although I am of course still very interested in alternative ideas as my goal is to understand what’s truly happening! While reading; assume that the cogs on the winding pinion and the clutch wheel are worn-out and slipping against one another once enough tension has built in the mainspring by manual winding. So, as tension is peaking between the winding pinion and the crown wheel the click piece will be disengaged and the tip of the click piece and a tip of a crown wheel tooth will be opposite one another. At this very moment a slip between the cogs of the clutch wheel and the winding pinion occurs and the crown wheel, unnaturally, with a snap and tremendous speed, rolls back in a clockwise direction into the position it came from. As well, at this point the ratchet wheel exerts a lot of pressure on the crown wheel pushing it in the direction of the click. I believe that the combination of this event and force makes the crown wheel slide ever so little in the direction of the click, and in the process the crown wheel becomes weakened in its ability to keep the ratchet wheel teeth from slipping on the crown wheel teeth, and once this process has started it’s a point of no return. The ratchet wheel begins to spin in an anticlockwise direction with such an extreme speed and force that the crown wheel is unable to engage it again, even after the click has engaged the crown wheel. Hence the mainspring unwinds uncontrollably. One objection to the above reasoning could be that this should also happen when we manually wind the watch through the winding crown and stem and quickly release our fingers from the winding crown. However, the speed with which we’re able to release the winding crown with our fingers could never match that of the cogs of the winding pinion and clutch wheel slipping against one other. That is, no matter how fast we release the fingers from the winding crown, the force from our fingers will make the crown wheel teeth roll back into the click in a controlled manner keeping the ratchet wheel teeth engaged with the crown wheel teeth. Well, JM2C!
  2. I forgot to mention that I'd very much appreciate your opinions if you have the time and interest to see the video. As always, the video could probably have been cut to a few minutes, but you can always speed it up.
  3. OK, so even the magical world of watch servicing and repairing that we love so dearly is caught up by reality "once in a while"!? Dang! Who would have thought!? Add to all the things you mention taxes to be paid and overhead in the form of tools, consumables, parts, premises, etc., etc. perhaps $1000 for a complete fix and service of a vintage 1940s Phigied Monopusher with Angelus Caliber 210 is that bad after all!? Perhaps even a bit of a bargain?
  4. OK, so I've changed my mind! I now marvel at how anyone can develop such skill that they can service five watches in a day, rather than 1 watch in five days (like "some" hobbyist watch repairers)
  5. Just a comment, and a bit OT. I'm a hobbyist and I put my heart and soul into every watch I service and repair (any watch takes me at least a day), and I often marvel over the - in my honest opinion - low prices that professional watch repairers charge for their work. How can they survive!?
  6. Unitas Calibre 6380 Disassembly Picture Walkthrough please order the pictures by name in ascending order! Servicing my first Unitas movement other than the widely popular calibre 6497/98, but instead a calibre 6325, I tasted blood and got wondering if there were any Unitas movements having a calendar complication, and indeed there were! This curiosity led me to the 6380 calibre which seems very similar to the 6325. Once I’ve cleaned and assembled my 6380, I’ll post a link to my assembly picture walkthrough (including lubrication suggestions) in a later post in this thread. I’ve really taken all Unitas movements that I’ve serviced to my heart. They are easy to work with as the parts are large and few, the design is very traditional - like a school book on how mechanical watches work - and they seem very reliable and robust. My timing machine for these movements has always shown great results. Perhaps I’ve been lucky but it's beginning to feel like a pattern.
  7. Thanks for your replies fellows, much appreciated! I will go with my plan and do it by hand. I will consider using a centre drill instead of the tool I linked to. Whatever my final choice of tool I'll let you know the results once I'm done.
  8. The below picture is from ETA’s tech sheet for calibre 1256, and to me it looks like the oscillating weight of this calibre essentially is identical to that of calibre 2472. ETA says: "To correct end-shake of oscillating weight, proceed as follows: to reduce end-shake, adjust inner cone of hub of bearing wheel 1498 (see arrow G on coloured plate opposite). To increase end-shake, adjust inner cone of tube of framework 1134 (see arrow H on coloured plate opposite). To fraise the cones, use a 60° conical fraise held in an ordinary chuck. When end-shake has been corrected, the 2 cones should be lubricated with good quality fine oil, and bearing wheel screw 51498 should be screwed home." I’ve been unable to translate the word "fraise" from English to Swedish (my native language) but I believe it roughly means: ”mill”? Also, I don’t know what "an ordinary chuck" is, but searching ”chuck” on cousinsuk.com the below picture came up. Is that what ETA mean by ”ordinary chuck”? If my questions seem unnecessary or stupid, please let me tell you that I’m basically a technical idiot whose most advanced tools in my adult life (I’m 60 in a few years) have been computer keyboards, mice, and touch screens and the like until recently. I must admit I'm having a hard time understanding all your pro terminology ("burr angles", "chamfering tools", "lathe tool", "faceplate" and so on...), and so I would find it extremely encouraging if you experts could confirm or oppose to the idea I show in the below picture. My idea seems very reasonable to my “digital brain” but having so little experience with the analogue world of watches I still feel very unsettled. If you think my idea presented in the above picture makes sense to try, then what do think about the below tool that I found on Amazon.co.uk? Sorry for being so wordy and thanks for your patience!
  9. Thank you for your posts, very much appreciated! I just realized there was an image (see above) of the 60° milling cutter tool suggested by ETA to adjust the oscillating weight end-shake in ETAs tech sheet for calibre 2472 (apologies, silly me!) So, in both cases (too much/too little end-shake) what ETA tells us to do is to: “remove material from cone inside…”, either “tube” to increase end-shake, or “spindle (thrust point of screw)” to reduce end-shake. (I forgot to quote the “thrust point of screw” in my previous post, sorry!). So, what’s the difference between a “tube” and a “spindle” and where are they located? Well, I can’t figure it out! Getting new parts from Cousins does unfortunately not seem to be an option as these parts are “Obsolete”. Anyway, based on what I’ve read so far in this thread, the above is my guess of what I can try to do to reduce the end-shake. Let me know what you think (please verify!) I suppose it would be critical to get the cutter dead centre (90° angle) to the hole?
  10. Changing the screw and hoping it might solve the problem seems like the easiest thing to try. Stupid question but to make sure, do you mean the screw for the oscillating weight bearing (51498), the one seen in close-up in the second picture above?
  11. The oscillating weight of the ETA 2472 that I’ve just serviced suffers from too much end-shake. I’d say minimum 0.02 mm to 0.2 mm (hard to say really). Anyway, the oscillating weight touches the setting lever screw when rotating. Not so much that it really hinders the oscillating weight from rotating, but enough to create a slight scratching sound. Very annoying! So, I filed down the head of the setting lever screw as much as I could (making sure to preserve just enough of the screw head slot). This was an improvement but didn’t solve the problem. From ETAs technical communication for calibre 2472 about this: "Adjust end-shake of oscillating weight. If there is too little shake, increase it by removing material from cone inside tube, using a 60° milling cutter. If there is too much shake, reduce it by removing material from cone inside spindle, using a 60° milling cutter. Once adjusted, there should be about 0.02 mm end-shake at centre of oscillating weight." I’m afraid I don’t understand the instruction because I don’t know what a "60° milling cutter" is (perhaps a tool for a milling machine?) and what ETA mean by "cone inside tube" and "cone inside spindle". @anilv spontaneously, without me asking, wrote about this topic here (thanks!), but I’m not sure if I’d be able to get the mentioned parts and what tool would be required to "press fit the gear into the rotor". So, I’m bewildered and really don’t know how to proceed. I can only guess what things are, so I hope you can pair the terminology I don't understand with the included pictures to help me out on how to get on with this.
  12. Fantastic job! WARNING OT: I remember back in 1987 when I bought my first computer. Among other things I used it as a typewriter. Remember Word Perfect? Anyway, the no 1 amazing thing with this way of writing was that a typing error could be edited indefinitely without a trace of the original error remaining. In this respect (and in this respect only) WRT sort of reminds me of the years before 1987
  13. Thanks for the input Anilv and I can understand your skepticism. My description of what caused the mainspring to unwind uncontrollably was in fact just a theory, not a proven fact. I should have been more humble. Anyway, I sure would want to know exactly why the mainspring would unwind during manual winding. A good starting point for finding the truth about anything is to start with what is factually known and then try to apply a plausible theory to it. I'm thinking that if we put our heads together, maybe we can solve this "mystery". So, what were the facts before I replaced the clutch wheel and the winding pinion. Well, some of the cogs of both the clutch wheel and the winding pinion were frayed. However, not to the extent that they wouldn't work at all. The rest of the involved parts; stem, crown wheel, click, click spring, ratchet wheel, barrel, barrel arbor, and mainspring were, as far as I can tell, in perfect condition. So, while winding the movement by turning the stem, I could distinctly feel and see how the cogs of the clutch wheel and the winding pinion now and then would slip against one another. However, as expected, this did not affect the winding of the mainspring. The tension of the mainspring would gradually build (albeit not as quickly as it could have). However, as tension was building strong, and at the exact moment that the cogs were slipping, I would hear something that I can only describe as a blow of a miniature hammer that would last for less than a hundred of a second. Continuing winding after this "hammer blow" it was evident that the mainspring had lost all its power, and after having repeated this winding procedure three to five times or so, the ratchet wheel screw would come loose as well. Initially, I suspected the mainspring, as my impression was that the mainspring arbor hook wasn't sitting properly in the eye of the inner coil. That is, my theory was that the arbor hook was slipping out of the eye once enough tension in the mainspring had built. Then, as I kept winding, the arbor would spin 360 degrees and hook into the eye again, tension would build, and the hook would slip out again, and so on. So I decided to order a barrel complete from Cousins to see what difference it would make, if any, but it didn't make any difference at all. The exact same behaviour would repeat itself with the new barrel and mainspring. I carefully examined all parts involved in the winding process, including the click works, but couldn't find any faulty parts except the cogs of the clutch wheel and the winding pinion. So, I decided to order new parts in a desperate attempt to find a solution, and once the new clutch wheel and the new winding pinion were assembled all problems ceased! So, those were all the facts to the best of my ability and recollection! Now, here's my theory, and mind you, now I'm just guessing! To verify my theory I believe a high-speed macro camera would have been necessary. As the tension was peaking between the winding pinion and the crown wheel the click would have been disengaged. At this very moment the slip between the clutch wheel and the winding pinion would occur and the crown wheel would roll back into the position it came from and the click would slide back to support the crown wheel in this position. This would of course happen in an extremely small fraction of a second. Anyway, I believe that during this extremely short period of time before the click was fully engaged with the crown wheel after the slip, the ratchet wheel would exert such a strong force on the crown wheel that the crown wheel would slide in the direction of the click and in the process become weakened in its ability to keep the ratchet wheel from slipping on the crown wheel. Hence the mainsping would unwind uncontrollably. Well, as already stated, this is just my theory (I hope it was possible to understand!?), but I'd like to hear what you think of it, and if you have an alternate explanation. That is, why would the mainspring unwind uncontrollably during manual winding?
  14. Thanks for the input Anilv and I can understand your skepticism. My description of what caused the mainspring to unwind was in fact just a theory, not a proven fact. I should have been more humble. Anyway, I sure would want to know exactly why the mainspring would unwind while winding the stem. A good starting point for finding the truth about anything is start with what is actually known and then try to apply a plausible theory to it. So, what were the facts before I replaced the clutch wheel and the winding pinion. Well, some of the cogs of both the clutch wheel and the winding pinion were frayed. However, not to the extent that they wouldn't work at all. The rest of the involved parts, stem, crown wheel, click, ratchet wheel, and barrel
  15. So, I finally finished my picture service walkthrough for this ETA calibre 2472. Here it is!
  16. When I first started out trying to service and repair watches I took a picture of every step, and I really needed those pictures as I didn’t have the knowledge to deduct where the parts should go, how they worked, and how they interacted. Now that I’ve gained some experience, I no longer need all those pictures, but I still need some pictures. For example, it’s very convenient to have pictures of the train of wheels or certain parts of a date complication, and so on. Anyway, I really enjoy taking these pictures as I go and I organize them and keep them on my OneDrive for future use. For this project, servicing my brother’s Atira Plana housing an ETA 2472, I felt it would be fun, interesting and perhaps even useful not only to take the pictures but to edit the pictures adding visual and textual instructions. These pictures are made for my personal use and are not intended as a tutorial or to tell other people how to service an ETA 2472. The pictures simply document how I went about it. Nevertheless, I guess others may find my work useful so I’m happy to share it. There are many ways to service a watch and I’m still learning. That said, I do follow the practices taught on watchrepairlessons.com and they work very well for me! Here are links to my other service walkthroughs here on WRT: Unitas Calibre 6325 Service Walkthrough ETA cal. 2824-2 (17 jewels) disassembly/assembly Vostok 2409 Service Walkthrough ETA Calibre 2472 Disassembly (132 pictures) ETA Calibre 2472 Assembly (131 pictures)
  17. Spares (clutch and winding pinion) delivered and some time on my hands I have finally finished the reassembly, given it a full wind, and put it on my timing machine. Here are the results recorded just a minute after its first full wind: As you can see, there’s nothing funny to be seen in the 9 o’clock down position, or any other position. Of course, these are preliminary results. I’ll now let it run for a few days to let all fresh lubrication distribute and will then put on the timing machine again. I did assemble most of the watch parts except the oscillating weight, dial, hands, and case. I know it would have been a good idea to assemble it in steps (thanks for the advice!), but my fingers were itching. Anyway, if these preliminary results remain, I will be one very happy camper. The most instructive part of this service was to learn that with a frayed clutch and a frayed winding pinion that are slipping against one another as tension builds in the mainspring while winding, it will eventually cause the crown wheel to slip against the ratchet wheel and the mainspring will unwind uncontrollably. In my case the mainspring unwound with such force and such speed (it can’t be seen, only heard) that it distorted the coils of the mainspring and made the arbor jump out of the inner coil. So yes of course, I had to replace the mainspring as well. So, lesson learned, a frayed clutch and a frayed winding pinion must be replaced, or the consequences can be devastating. The rest of the parts are in perfect condition, which makes me wonder why the clutch and winding pinion were so badly worn. Perhaps the previous owner didn’t realize it was an automatic watch or was paranoid that it would stop unless constantly wound (keeping my fingers crossed there’s nothing wrong with the automatic winding). Or, could it be that the quality of metal in these parts is too soft/substandard? Please feel free to guess!?
  18. If possible I try to follow the assembly process as taught at watchrepairlessons.com (Level 2: Maintenance servicing). I.e., I assemble the keyless works just before the pallets and balance. I never really thought about why this is a "recommended practice" in the course. At first I thought it might have something to do with facilitating testing the free running of the train wheels, but this isn't a problem as long as we haven't installed the crown wheel and the click works on the barrel bridge I suppose. Another reason could be that the barrel bridge usually supports the clutch and winding pinion while assembling those parts. Well, I've strayed at bit from the topic of this thread, but nevertheless, why would it be a good or bad idea to begin with the keyless works?
  19. Thanks, Nucejoe! I usually do the keyless works pretty late in my assembly process (train wheels, barrel, bridges, motion work, keyless work, date complication if any, and finally escapement and balance). However, reading ETAs tech sheets it would seem they usually start the assembly process with the keyless works (at least for the 2824-2). Maybe there's a good reason for it!?
  20. Thanks, and yes, that could very well be the problem! The design definitely seems to leave no room for imperfections! However, I'm happy to say that I just came up with a solution. I'm not a technical guy so I really, truly surprised myself (än är inte undrens tid förbi ). I realized that the case was big enough to insert the movement into the case with the stem attached to the movement, crown unscrewed of course, and then hold the stem with pliers inside the case while screwing back the crown from the outside of the case.
  21. I’m having serious problems removing and replacing the stem on this ETA 2472 that I’m servicing. The only way I can remove the stem is by unscrewing the setting lever screw completely. Of course, this makes it impossible to replace the stem. I’ve been trying to unscrew in extremely small steps while trying to remove the stem by gently, and sometimes forcefully, shaking/moving the stem in all horizontal directions while pulling it out, but it just won’t come loose. That is until the screw detaches from the setting lever. I’ve also tried to first reattach the screw to the setting lever and then later put the stem back in, but this fails too. In this case, the setting lever is just hanging on to the last half thread of the screw but when putting the stem back in it probably moves the screw a bit and the setting lever comes loose again. It’s an understatement to say that this has been extremely patience-testing. Having removed large parts of the date complication for the fourth time to reach the keyless works, I felt 100 % stuck. I wonder, is this a design flaw, are my parts somehow broken or faulty, and more than anything, what could be a solution?
  22. I'm looking to buy my first staking set and the above came up on a local eBay like site in Sweden (tradera.se). The seller (like me) knows nothing about the tool so the description simply says: "See the pictures". What would be a reasonable maximum price approximately? Thanks for any input on this! Oh, the brand name is BOLEY if it adds anything!?
  23. I could determine that it was the teeth of the clutch and the winding pinion that was frayed, so I'm now waiting for spares. They weren't so bad that I couldn't wind at all, but when enough tension (and not very much) was built up they would slip. This in turn, and this is actually a question, made the crown wheel slip against the ratchet wheel (or so I believe) making the mainspring unwind uncontrollably in a spit second. Anyway, I hope these winding problems will be gone when I've replaced the clutch and the winding pinion. Or what do you think? BTW, the ETA 2824-2 is the only movement I've seen (haven't got a lot of experience) having this "yoke tail" instead of a yoke spring to put tension on the yoke. I can see that there's quite a risk to forget it in the assembly process, especially if it is the first time you service a 2824-2. Anyway, I studied Mark Lovick's assembly video for the ETA 2824-2 prior to putting it together and took careful note of it. I'm now doing my third ETA, calibre 2472. Overall, my impression of the 2824-2 and now 2472 is that they are rather unconventional, at least when it comes to the train of wheels and the keyless works.
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