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Hi everyone, first post for me but a long time lurker of this sub-section as I'm starting into watchmaking. I'm in the process of getting the needed tools and remain some stuff to come with long delays in parcel shipping/deliveries...

I did a lot of research across many forums as I try to get what is really essential and what can be substituted. Here is what I resumed so far in my notes :

Must have oils/grease :

Moebius 9010 : Good for balance and escape wheels jewels. Moebius 8000 is a cheap substitute but with the longer life of synthetic oils, it's better to get 9010 even if it cost a bit more which can be split across over 1000 movements.

Moebius 9415 : For pallet stone. This is the only choice which make sense (some say 941 for slow movements and 9415 for faster movements but the main difference is that 9415 is a grease which turn liquid on impact so it stay on the pallet stone better).

Moebius 9104 (HP-1300) : heavier oil for the rest of the gears jewels, barrel arbor, cannon pinion. some even say it's also good for keyless works but i believe it's not really optimal. It replace Moebius D-5.

The only things left I still get so confused with many contradictory informations are greases for keyless works and braking grease.

For keyless works, the ideal one is 9501/9504 (not sure about the difference) but it's really expensive. Many recommend Molykote DX as a good substitute and I agree it's a good price but the problem is that it can contaminate cleaning solutions and many manufacturers ban them from the servicing protocol. Another one I heard something is Bergeon KT-22, a bit more expensive than Molykote DX but is a clear color, not staining cleaning solutions. I'm thinking to go with KT-22 as keyless works isn't as sollicited as gears/motion works and it's easier to reapply without needing a full service (just disassemble keyless works to clean then reassemble/grease). What are your opinions on this.

For braking grease (only for automatic movements), The general recommendation for the best is Kluber P125 but it's really expensive and not easily found everywhere. The generally accepted consensus is 8212 for Aluminium/steel barrel wall and 8213 for brass barrel wall. But there is also 8217 available, which is a stronger braking grease from what I understand. Since I want to get only 1 which can serve all purposes, what is the proper choice ? Are there other alternatives I might have missed out.

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2 hours ago, Xilikon said:

The only things left I still get so confused with many contradictory informations are greases for keyless works and braking grease.

Lubrication threads always are (in the best watchmaking tradition) contradictory. 

My opinion and direct experience: HP-1300 is perfectly fine for keyless and cannon pinion also. And you can try without much worry to dry fit automatic mainsprings, because metal to metal friction is good enough in most cases.

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  • 2 months later...

Watch oils and greases are not available where I live. Lot's of them on vendors websites, but nothing actually on the shelf to despatch. So, my wife is making a short trip to EU in a few days and I thought I'd have her bring some back for me. However.....the budget....is tight....because very weak currency from banana republic....

So, if you were going to be limited to maybe four or five oils and greases  - what should they be?

I will be using them for watches - manual and automatic, the odd pocket watch, and clocks up to say Mantel size.

I have some pretty old 8000 and 9020, but would you replace those with exactly the same or go for something different and more modern?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.

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This is what I use on automatic and manual watches:

1.- 9010 on the train wheel jewels (except center wheel), cap jewels, pallet stones.

2.- 8200 on the main spring.

3.- 8217 on the barrel wall.

4.- Molikote DX on the barrel bushes and some parts of the keyless work like clutch/yoke friction area.

5.- HP1300 for all the rest including center wheel jewels.

Should I need something else for clocks, I'd use HP1300 instead of Molikote and buy something for clocks.

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1 hour ago, Geoffrey said:

So, if you were going to be limited to maybe four or five oils and greases  - what should they be?

Five oil is a lot for a good minimalistic approach. You only need 9010 and HP1300. They are good enough to perform where something else is more recommendable. 

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1 hour ago, aac58 said:

This is what I use on automatic and manual watches:

1.- 9010 on the train wheel jewels (except center wheel), cap jewels, pallet stones.

2.- 8200 on the main spring.

3.- 8217 on the barrel wall.

4.- Molikote DX on the barrel bushes and some parts of the keyless work like clutch/yoke friction area.

5.- HP1300 for all the rest including center wheel jewels.

Should I need something else for clocks, I'd use HP1300 instead of Molikote and buy something for clocks.

8030 oil is for clocks

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On 12/1/2020 at 5:06 PM, jdm said:

Five oil is a lot for a good minimalistic approach. You only need 9010 and HP1300. They are good enough to perform where something else is more recommendable. 

Thanks for this info. Much appreciated. I have ordered a total of 7 products as recommended by Mark in his post further up this forum. It's Christmas after all!

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3 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

I have ordered a total of 7 products as recommended by Mark in his post further up this forum. 

I know that Mark's list and training includes D5 but that is perfectly replaced by HP-1300. I think that more recently he also began using the latter exclusively. 
Personally as a beginner I've found that priority need to be on a lot more important issues rather than having a large range of lubricants.

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I'm an enthusiastic amateur and have previously built a number of watches using the NH35/36 movements - but I can feel myself getting sucked into the world of Swiss movements. I've decided to help a fix a friends watch running on a Sellita SW200-1 which is a ETA 2824-2 clone (see below).

I would like to become confident taking a movement apart, especially the 2824. And so I was wondering about buying a cheap Chinese clone from Ebay for $30 to practice on such as this: https://ebay.us/9eIyBk. Does that sound like a good start?

I have the 2824 datasheet and the basic tools required (timegrapher, set of Bergeon screw drivers, movement holder, finger cots, loupe, dust cover, brass tweezers, rodico etc etc) but I don't have anything to lubricate movements, or know what to do.  What is a good start for a beginner doing this as a hobby and wanting to get better performance out of cheap/old movements? Is it possible to get started with lubrication equipment for less than $50? If so, how?

Thanks!!

 

 

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I think this top has been covered in great depth already. As a bare minimum, I would say you could get away with using a light oil like 9010 and a heavy oil like D5.   And you’d need at least one fine oiler and preferably also a thicker one. 

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8 hours ago, andrewmayer said:

Is it possible to get started with lubrication equipment for less than $50? If so, how?

lubrication equipment like the dip oiler and the cup you put the oil in yes you can get those for less than $50. But if you want to include the lubrication in that $50 then that isn't really going to happen. We could recommend some super cheap lubrication but it's kind of like buying a supercheap watch tools it's not really a good solution it's a waste of money.

To give you an idea you can look through the pages at the link below. I would initially just skim through the whole thing don't worry about the fine print and then you can go back and decide which ones you like the best. That's because there's a lot of ideas opinions and views on the subject.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/83-lubricants/

 

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It's just about doable, If you don't buy Moebius lubricants. I use Dr. Tillwich (1-3, 3-5 and B52). I don't know If they are available in your country. Here is one of the online sellers in Germany. 

https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/Uhrenoele

That's the absolute minimum to get started, and obviously requires compromises. For example, you don't have any braking grease or high-beat pallet oil in there.

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2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

lubrication equipment like the dip oiler and the cup you put the oil in yes you can get those for less than $50. But if you want to include the lubrication in that $50 then that isn't really going to happen. We could recommend some super cheap lubrication but it's kind of like buying a supercheap watch tools it's not really a good solution it's a waste of money.

To give you an idea you can look through the pages at the link below. I would initially just skim through the whole thing don't worry about the fine print and then you can go back and decide which ones you like the best. That's because there's a lot of ideas opinions and views on the subject.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/83-lubricants/

 

Great thread! Many thanks!

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As a totally new watchmaker in training this is one of the few items I just cringed at the price and bought. I think there are people on ebay repackaging smaller amounts bringing the price down a bit. You might take a look. One thing I would also recommend as a newbie is before attempting to lubricate a watch, see if you can just get the watch apart and back together first. This will keep the lubricant spread beyond the watch down to a minimum. 

 

Matt

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34 minutes ago, Nibbler said:

As a totally new watchmaker in training this is one of the few items I just cringed at the price and bought. I think there are people on ebay repackaging smaller amounts bringing the price down a bit. You might take a look. One thing I would also recommend as a newbie is before attempting to lubricate a watch, see if you can just get the watch apart and back together first. This will keep the lubricant spread beyond the watch down to a minimum. 

 

Matt

One step is missing ?: "just get the watch apart", clean all components, " and back together first". Cheers!

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Hi watch people

I am a new member here,I am 67 so need to pick the members brains. I used to tinker with pocket watches for some years but stopped when my Wife passed away.  Now I am getting back into it with the help of my Granddaughter and this internet thing,  I have read through the 12 pages of lubrication with some interest, Moebius do seem to do a lot more oils than they did 10 to 15 years ago.  The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap.  I have 4 or 5 downloads of Moebius oil sheets recommending what oil to put where on a watch, the 8000 has now it seems been replaced with ,941, 9010, 9020 and the 8141 with D3 to D5.  So instead of 2 bottles of oil we now have 5, That must have increased their profit margins by a few hundred %.  I did have a few books on watch & clock repair and 2 of them date back to the turn of the last century, one old watchmaker used walnut oil to lube his clocks, by simply sticking the pivot into a walnut.  Any way thats my first penny's worth.  Thank you for your time.

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11 minutes ago, dreadnought said:

The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap.  I have 4 or 5 downloads of Moebius oil sheets recommending what oil to put where on a watch, the 8000 has now it seems been replaced with ,941, 9010, 9020 and the 8141 with D3 to D5.  So instead of 2 bottles of oil we now have 5, That must have increased their profit margins by a few hundred %.  I did have a few books on watch & clock repair and 2 of them date back to the turn of the last century, one old watchmaker used walnut oil to lube his clocks, by simply sticking the pivot into a walnut.  Any way thats my first penny's worth.  Thank you for your time.

Hi submariner,

If you are only planning to fix old / vintage / pocket watches, etc then this is what you need:

8000

8141

8200

8030

and perhaps 8217 for automatic watches barrels

And a bottle of Gordon's Gin (also good for cleaning periscopes)

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Morning Poljot

Thanks for your reply, the mention of gin, we used to get a wine glass full of Gin from the officers steward, 2 dips on a cloth for the search periscope & 1 dip for the attack scope, the rest was shared with the other 2 members of my team, dont half bring back memories

 

dreadnought

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12 hours ago, dreadnought said:

The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap. 

Good oils but natural oils, which means shorter shelf life, shorter in-watch life, and lesser performance.
So the current practice, whenever possible, is to  use synthetic watch oils all around, including on vintage / antique movements, and that explains why they aren't a recommeded purchase. Would one use (if even available) the same oils made 60 years ago on a 60 years old car? I don't think so.

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11 hours ago, dreadnought said:

The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap.

one of the really useful features of this message board is the search feature. For instance searching for 8000 reveals we've discussed it before. it looks like we've even discussed 8141 but not as much.

42 minutes ago, jdm said:

which means shorter shelf life, shorter in-watch life, and lesser performance.

at the link below you can download technical specifications for the various watch oils.  one of my friends who took up watch repair after he retired originally learned from his grandfather. So he embraced his grandfathers lubrication teachings. This means we typically bicker over lubrication. One day I asked a question about service life when he worked in his grandfather shop. as he pointed out the watches were not automatic watches and they were not sealed up tight. so the recommended service interval was one year.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Good Morning!

I read the thread on essential oils / grease and so went ahead and bought the following based on the recommendations:

Moebius 8200 Semi-Liquid Grease

Moebius 9415 Synthetic Grease

Moebius D5 Microgliss Oil

Moebius 9010/2 Oil

However, I am currently following Marks youtube video to rebuild my Dubois Depraz Chronograph module and he seems to mention various oils / greases, none of which I have.......?

In the video Mark uses HP1300, HP500 and Moebius 9501.

Has anyone put together a comparison chart or a list of swapable oils / greases or am going to have to fork out another £100?? ?

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/14/2020 at 3:23 PM, Mark said:

I made this for anybody getting started, feel free to share.

 

Recommended Lubricants for Getting Started.pdf 588.12 kB · 34 downloads

Hello Mark

This is my first post on your forum, but I've been subscribed to your YouTube channel for sometime now.

Your video's are EXCEPTIONALLY informative.

Your calm, methodical approach is nothing short of inspirational. 

I've cross-referenced some of these in my posts on the The Watch Site forum and quoted you as the source.

I'm new to horology, and have been bitten by the bug!

The initial outlay to get tooled up has been quite high, and only time will tell whether I shall be able to recoup my investment.

My first strip-down and re-build is to be a Seiko 5 Automatic - SEIKO 5 7S26A-3160

I know your video: 'Seiko 7s26 full strip-down service, restoration and watch repair tutorial' is based on the 2nd generation 7S26B movement, but according to Seiko 'the design of the balance staff' is what's changed though I cannot spot the difference in the respective technical data sheets.

After I've gained experience with that, I plant to work on a Seiko Bell-Matic 4006A-6031

Restoration of 1970s Seiko Bell-matic, Rusted Solid and broken - Lets get this watch working! 

Boy was that watch in a state !

People who have no respect for timepieces should not be permitted to wear them.

I'm on this post, because its on the topic of lubricants. 

I apologise if the question has already been answered elsewhere. 

Your link above for Recommended Lubricants suggests the following to start with:

OPTION A

  • Moebius 9010 
  • Moebius D5
  • Moebius 8200
  • Molykote DX

The Seiko Technical manual 7S26A / 4006A refer to the use of :

OPTION B

AO-3 = Moebius A = Synt-A-Lube = 9010
SEIKO S-4 = Moebius 8301 
(suggested by Cousins as an alternative) 
SEIKO S-6

Will need to add - Moebius 8217 to this list.

They do not talk about servicing the barrel walls or mainspring but suggest replacement (obviously depends on 'Amplitude' results from timegrapher). 

Your recommendation is Moebius 8217 (barrel wall of automatic movements)

Would use of AF Switzerland's 'Novostar Barrel Grease' (17311) - 35% cheaper than 'Moebius 8217' be really out of place, or would you just bite the bullet?

Also in your video, you do not oil the mainspring - suggested 'Moebius 8141'

Some do and others don't - Any thoughts on this?

Question is 'OPTION A' or 'OPTION B' in light of the technical manuals or stick with your recommendation?

Look forward to your reply. ? 

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