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I've just finished reading through this whole thread. Early on Mark said that Molykote DX was a possible substitute for 9501. However, on Esslinger they say that Molykote DX is said to be similar to D5. Does that mean that Molykote DX can work as a decent substitute for both 9501 and D5? I'm guessing the application might be a bit trickier due to the reduced viscosity of DX, but would it perform similarly?

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6 minutes ago, Thesecondtallestman said:

I've just finished reading through this whole thread. Early on Mark said that Molykote DX was a possible substitute for 9501. However, on Esslinger they say that Molykote DX is said to be similar to D5. Does that mean that Molykote DX can work as a decent substitute for both 9501 and D5? I'm guessing the application might be a bit trickier due to the reduced viscosity of DX, but would it perform similarly?

I know that Mark used the good old D5 in few videos but being it natural base it has been largely surpassed by synthetic like HP-1300 under all aspects. The only reason you will find it referenced in old service sheets is because.. they are old.

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Hi as you have already found out lubrication of watches is a minefield every one has there own ideas and theories. As jdm remarked some of the products mentioned on the sheets have been superceeded by more modern products. I have attached the moebius book and the rules of lubrication (omega) so by reading both and making an informed choice.     cheers

moebius-specsbook.pdf 1472711985_8645_WI_40_rulesforlubricationcousinsuk (1).pdf

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6 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi as you have already found out lubrication of watches is a minefield every one has there own ideas and theories. As jdm remarked some of the products mentioned on the sheets have been superceeded by more modern products. I have attached the moebius book and the rules of lubrication (omega) so by reading both and making an informed choice.     cheers

moebius-specsbook.pdf 3.63 MB · 5 downloads 1472711985_8645_WI_40_rulesforlubricationcousinsuk (1).pdf 1.28 MB · 8 download

Thanks @watchweasol please keep on the good work with your valuable contribution ,data sheets help a lot.

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Now why did I not think of this before.

image.png.25ebeb62f34fd191b460ece6c4e3e8a3.png

Cousins has the Hazmat sheets, so if you want to know what is in for example Moebius 8000, you simply download the hazmat sheet.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/skus/116_O1053.pdf

Going through the above, we can see that Moebuis 8000 is a non synthetic (but still petrochemical) oil, with some secret sauce in the form of..

Parafinic hydrocarbons (the actual oil). Around £6 per liter from your local hardware store (or around 54p per liter if you substitute domestic heating oil).

Neatsfoot oil, which is used in leather work, and probably accounts for the slightly yellow nature of Moebius 8000, and costs about £10 to £15 per liter (and probably much less in larger quantities).

Polyacrylate as a thickener. (search ebay for Super Absorbent Polymer • Sodium Polyacrylate • Homopolymer • Hydrogel • Slush)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylate_polymer

2,6-Di-tert.-butyl-4-methylphenole which is  used as an ant-oxidant to help extend the life of the product.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butylated_hydroxytoluene

p.p'.-Dioctyldiphenylamine is also an anti-oxidant used in oils.
http://www.chemicalland21.com/specialtychem/finechem/DIOCTYLDIPHENYLAMINE.htm

"Antioxidant is a substance added in small quantities to hydrocarbons which are susceptible to oxidation, such as rubbers, plastics, foods, and oils to inhibit or slow oxidative processes, while being itself oxidized. "

So in theory, all you need is some baby oil, heating oil or similar,  some neatsfoot oil and a couple of drops of anti-oxidants and you can roll your own.

Given that genuine Moebuis 8000 comes in at around £4 per ml (in other words £4,000.00 per liter) I can see there might be a slight temptation to make it from scratch, if it were not for the fact that a single bottle of the stuff typically lasts for ages.

Edited by AndyHull
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A little more info.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphenylamine

I couldn't source this on ebay, but it does seem to be readily available from chemical suppliers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butylated_hydroxytoluene

AKA E321 - Butylated hydroxytoluene is available as a food grade antioxidant.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=Butylated+hydroxytoluene&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=Butylated+hydroxytoluene&_sacat=0

  

On 9/1/2019 at 4:25 PM, JBerry said:

you can look at the MSDS on CousinsUK


Looks like I'm just a little slow on the uptake here. Good suggestion @JBerry, shame I didn't pay more attention when you made it.

Edited by AndyHull
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Hi Guys on the same subject I keep seeing on ebay reconditioned Epilame/Fixodrop and also D5. The reconditioned stuff a fraction on the normal price. My question being, What is reconditioned Epilame/Fixodrop and how do they recondition it  ???  and is it as good as the normal product.  A new can of worms.   Over to you Mr Berry.

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44 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Guys on the same subject I keep seeing on ebay reconditioned Epilame/Fixodrop and also D5. The reconditioned stuff a fraction on the normal price. 

I suspect these are expired products and/or spilled from a bigger bottle then given a new label - the "reconditioning". Anyway D5 is superseded by synthetic, affordable  HP-1300 so personally I do not see reason to buy it.

Edited by jdm
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Not sure how you would recondition epilame.  I wonder if 'reconditioned' is a mis-translation for 'decanted'.  The price of epilame is high, but a large bottle (100ml) may still yield good returns when decanted into smaller (1, 2 5 ml bottles) even taking into account the containers costs.  Epilame can also be purchased as a concentrate and a diluent added for end use, maybe this 're-constituted' is meaning of reconditioned, and probably more profitable a venture.  The supplier on the bay is based in France so language issues may apply.

Need to ensure it is the correct grade as there are fixodrops (epilame) for plastic, ruby metal etc. 

I also need to restock small amount, so may just give it a try as I am only a hobbyist and no 'customers' to answer to !!

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  • 1 month later...

I suspect Molykote would work fine, based only on the fact that some lubrication is better than no lubrication. In other words I would say it would be OK if there is nothing else available.

Being a paste, it should stay put, and that is the risk. Some lubricants will migrate to places where you don't want them.

If you want to experiment with it, then try it on a low value watch, and wear it for a while, then check it to see if it has stayed in place. You could also try moly grease (which I have used).

This is readily available too, and is orders of magnitude cheaper than branded watch greases. 250ml of generic moly grease cost less than 5ml of a suspiciously similar looking branded watch grease. 

The keyless work is much more forgiving of random lubricants than the rest of the watch, but avoid anything you think may be water based, or hydroscopic as it will almost certainly cause corrosion.

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8 minutes ago, AndyHull said:

If you want to experiment with it, then try it on a low value watch, and wear it for a while, then check it to see if it has stayed in place. You could also try moly grease (which I have used).

Yes. I agree. But I think if the amount is right, it won't spread elsewhere.

BTW I only saw DX Paste and never saw a molykote DX Grease. Is that a new product or something?

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1 minute ago, EatPeach said:

Yes. I agree. But I think if the amount is right, it won't spread elsewhere.

BTW I only saw DX Paste and never saw a molykote DX Grease. Is that a new product or something?

I'm not familiar with the Molykote range, but the "Moly" in it is almost certainly Molybdenum disulphide, in a secret brand of herbs and spices. Moly is used in huge quantities in industry.

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50 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

Can Molykote DX Paste be use for lubricating the keyless works? It's quite a cheapy grease compare to D5. Is it good for lubricating the keyless work or if possible some parts of the calender works?

DX  is indicated for very high friction points like cannon pinion, and to a lesser extent, keyless works. However if you are looking for an alternative to D5 get HP-1300 which is synthetic, so it has a longer life. Isn't terribly expensive,  it comes also as colorless or fluorescent for UV light inspection. It is now recommended by ETA and others.

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Molybdenum Disulphide is basically a solid dry lubricant that is mixed into an oil or grease.  The moly is carried by the oil/grease to everywhere it contacts taking over from the oil or becoming active when the oil barrier is breached.  It tends to 'plate out' onto surfaces so it can do its job.  This can lead to build-up, especially in gear teeth etc, or take-up close tolerance clearances.    Also the moly particles size can, relatively speaking, vary from coarse to very fine, the more industrial types will be coarser and unsuitable for fine mechanisms.   Having worked with lubes in industry for many years, it was general practice to avoid moly or silicone based products if possible due to their plating out effects and their difficulty removal properties.  Hope this helps a little.

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8 minutes ago, canthus said:

Molybdenum Disulphide is basically a solid dry lubricant that is mixed into an oil or grease.  The moly is carried by the oil/grease to everywhere it contacts taking over from the oil or becoming active when the oil barrier is breached.  It tends to 'plate out' onto surfaces so it can do its job.  This can lead to build-up, especially in gear teeth etc, or take-up close tolerance clearances.    Also the moly particles size can, relatively speaking, vary from coarse to very fine, the more industrial types will be coarser and unsuitable for fine mechanisms.   Having worked with lubes in industry for many years, it was general practice to avoid moly or silicone based products if possible due to their plating out effects and their difficulty removal properties.  Hope this helps a little.

This is quite informative. Thank you!

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49 minutes ago, jdm said:

DX  is indicated for very high friction points like cannon pinion, and to a lesser extent, keyless works. However if you are looking for an alternative to D5 get HP-1300 which is synthetic, so it has a longer life. Isn't terribly expensive,  it comes also as colorless or fluorescent for UV light inspection. It is now recommended by ETA and others.

I'll never apply it to the cannon pinion. If it dries out, it will be a disaster for time keeping. And for some movment like the ETA 27XX, it has to be oil-ish lubricant in order to get into the gap between the cannon pinion and the intermediate wheel. So I will still stick with D5.

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22 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

I'll never apply it to the cannon pinion. If it dries out, it will be a disaster for time keeping. And for some movment like the ETA 27XX, it has to be oil-ish lubricant in order to get into the gap between the cannon pinion and the intermediate wheel. So I will still stick with D5.

I don't agree that a "natural" lubricant is ever preferable to a synthetic one. 

Of course this being a lubrication topic will expose the widest latitude of opinions in horologerie. So if one believes to know the best answer already, what's the point of asking. 

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Lubricants specially if wrong or low quality, can damage base metals, evidence of which I have seen on long unserviced vintage pieces.One wouldn't know, when a watch may receive it's next clean, So why not use the best.

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1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

So why not use the best.

Sure. But, first problem is, what is the best? As long one departs from 9010 "fine oil", there is no single answer.
Second problem is, some "best" products are 65 GBP or so, before VAT and shipping, as an hobbyist you get a quantity that would last 10 lifetimes, that even before considering the publishing "expiration" date. Understandably, people looks for more reasonably  priced alternatives.

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@EatPeach asked if it would be OK for keyless work, and I would suggest that this is the one part of the watch I would risk it on. I have used engine oil on an old low value alarm clock, and it worked fine. Furthermore, I expect it will continue to work fine, and it is infinitely better than no oil at all. 

I wouldn't use engine oil on an expensive pocket watch. However the original manufacturer of the pocket watch probably used whale oil or similar, so arguably synthetic motor oil is better than whale oil.

I guess the reality is that if you intend to keep the watch, no problem, experiment as much as you like.  If you are doing things commercially, then you may not want to risk it. Personally I would give it a try, but then again, I would only try it on a low cost piece to start with.

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