Lubricants

[ArtG]

Many oils have expiration dates on them - 

Can you please comment on what the cons of for using expired oils and if this is marketing ploy or a an actual valid indication of when the oils degenerate and are not to their full intended use ?

 

 

Thank you

 

Art G 

Edited August 6, 2020 by ArtG
to notify me of replies

[jdm]

52 minutes ago, ArtG said:

Many oils have expiration dates on them 

This has often been discussed here, example below. And if you enter "expired" in the search box on the top right you will get even more hits.

Also, we have a dedicated section where it's considered polite for new members to introduce themselves.

Edited August 6, 2020 by jdm

[VWatchie]

This isn't really a question but just some info I'd like to share. Nevertheless, please feel free to comment and share your opinions. You may also find this thread useful.

These Seiko oils and greases seem to be commonly recommended in Seiko’s technical guides, and after some research I believe the following Moebius oils and greases are good/reasonable replacements:

AO-3 (Moebius A) => Moebius 9010
Seiko Watch Oil S-6 => Moebius 9504, Moebius 9501, Moebius HP-1300, Moebius D5
Seiko Watch Oil S-4 => Moebius 8301

The original Seiko oils and greases are, just like their watch parts, difficult to get by as Seiko, like most other brands, are trying to choke the independent watch trade.

Edited August 8, 2020 by VWatchie

[jdm]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The original Seiko oils and greases are, just like their watch parts, difficult to get by as Seiko, like most other brands, are trying to choke the independent watch trade.

That is just your unproven believing. The simpler explanation is that in the Western world we have an easy quality alternative with Moebius products. Fact is,  the brave material house that tried to bring the Swiss to court has no "restricted" labels when it comes to Seiko parts, and also sells Seiko lubricants and tools, just like so many other sellers in the world.

Anway, as they is nothign is new under the sun, below few topics where the matter has been discussed already:

 

 

[CaptCalvin]

Well at least we can still buy some new swiss parts off of ebay even if they are price gauged. Serial number scratched off of packaging to conceal the offending distributor of course. Now try finding ANY new Orient parts ANYWHERE. 

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

Now try finding ANY new Orient parts ANYWHERE. 

But I think that Orient doesn't just because of limited resources. They are a small maker surprised by their own success, maybe  their ingombrant owner only allows them to produce and advertise domestically and in the US. And recently someone wrote here that Orient sells parts in the US

[BrianB]

This feels like it's going to be a stupid question, but it's bugging me so I have to ask.

In general it seems like Moebius 941 and 9415 are treated interchangeably - both being suitable for lubricating the pallet stones / escape wheel teeth.

For example, here is the section from the ETA 2836 service sheeting specifying the lubricant to be used for that purpose:

But what is confusing to me is that other than the numbers and the color Moebius 941 and 9415 don't seem very similar. Moebius 941 is listed as an oil and Moebius 9415 is listed as a grease. Though their viscosity numbers are similar, looking at the packaging they come in gives the definite impression that 941 is more of a liquid. 

The 941 settles to the bottom of the vial nicely, exhibiting a meniscus on top as one would expect from a liquid. The 9415 on the other hand demonstrates a non-symmetrical air pocket suggesting a much thicker substance that hold form like a grease would be expected to.

I just don't understand how these two substances could be interchangeable - especially on something as sensitive to energy loss as an escapement.

If they are indeed interchangeable it would seem that the 941 would be preferable on something like pallet stones as I'd think it would be less likely to grab and hold the escape wheel tooth, however briefly, robbing energy.

Thanks in advance for entertaining my ignorance and sharing your collective wisdom.

[jdm]

9415 is a newer product with thixotropic properties. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

Search WRT for this word to be lead to the various discussions one the subject.

[JohnR725]

Depending upon the Age of the tech sheet you will find Variations especially for lubrication. I don't have a timeline but it goes in this order 9010 originally although the earlier tech sheets of other recommendations. then 941 comes out. Later 9415 a grease originally for higher frequency watches. Then the tech sheets were either or and it didn't have anything to do with frequency. Finally 9415 is the choice for everything. Okay to be technical it's not for everything there are some other specialty lubrication's but for this discussion it's 9415. I've attached a newer PDF of your watch and it's 9415. Also first link you can see the oil listed and that just says it's for escapement's. That on the grease section you'll find the 9415.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA_2836

 

 

 

 

 

ETA CT_2836-2_FDE_481924_17-1 2018.pdf

[saswatch88]

The 9415 liquifies with friction


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mousekar]

So as stated before, 9415 will go from a thick grease to an oil with the introduction of friction. Once the friction is removed it goes back to a grease. It's pretty wild. As I understand it, you should be able to use 9415 without epilame, which is a product you use to coat the spots where you'll add oil to keep it in place. However with the 941 you'll definitely want to use epilame as that will go everywhere with out it. Some can correct me if I am incorrect in this logic.

 

I started with the 941 but ended up getting the 9415. I'd say just pay the extra for the 9415 the first time.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, saswatch88 said:

The 9415 liquifies with friction

Unfortunately there is a problem with 9415? I'm attaching a PDF starting on page 13 it covers lubrication of the escapement. notice where they're putting super tiny quantities on? This is because if you get carried away with the quantity which normally wouldn't be an issue if this was an oil you will lose amplitude. This is because on impact the grease becomes a fluid it's very slippery and outstanding but if it's heavy the edges of the escape wheel are not an impact and there literally tearing through the grease.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf

[mousekar]

JohnR725, what an amazing resource! I don't know where you got this, but oh man am I sure glad you shared it. This is fantastic! Thank you!

[JohnR725]

It's unfortunate that cousins doesn't have the complete set as there's considerably more than this. Then finding these out in the wild a really hard because if you look at the corner of each page whoever downloaded it off of the Omega site gets their watermark in each corner. Which is why anyone with Omega account isn't going to share but cousins for a while did get some of the stuff

so if you Go to cousins websites and you search for working you would end up at the link I have below. As I said it's not the complete set but some interesting technical information

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

[BrianB]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately there is a problem with 9415? I'm attaching a PDF starting on page 13 it covers lubrication of the escapement. notice where they're putting super tiny quantities on? This is because if you get carried away with the quantity which normally wouldn't be an issue if this was an oil you will lose amplitude. This is because on impact the grease becomes a fluid it's very slippery and outstanding but if it's heavy the edges of the escape wheel are not an impact and there literally tearing through the grease.

That is kind of what I was driving at - I don't care how slippery it is, or how much it changes thickness under friction, it's grease. It's glommy. Now granted, too much of any lubricant is bad. But it seems to me that the difference between "enough grease" and "too much grease" would be exceedingly minuscule on something like an escapement.

When I used 9415 on the exit pallet stone when reassembling the 6498 in Mark's classes, I suspect I used too much. I'm going to remove the escape wheel and pallet fork and give them a good cleaning and re-lubricate using the guidance in that document.

Thanks for posting it!

[BrianB]

19 hours ago, jdm said:

9415 is a newer product with thixotropic properties. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

Search WRT for this word to be lead to the various discussions one the subject.

When I was making the decision to buy the 941 or the 9415, without realizing one was an oil and one was a grease, my thought process was "well, it would make sense that the 9415 would be newer than the 941, just judging by the numbers - as you wouldn't remove a digit for a newer product".

So I bought the 9415.

Now I think I'll go ahead and get some 941 just so I have options.

Thanks for the info!

[jdm]

5 hours ago, BrianB said:

Now I think I'll go ahead and get some 941 just so I have options.

As mentioned above 9415 is better for all uses. Having it already, getting 941 would be wasted money and would not produce the much sought higher amplitude.

[EatPeach]

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately there is a problem with 9415? I'm attaching a PDF starting on page 13 it covers lubrication of the escapement. notice where they're putting super tiny quantities on? This is because if you get carried away with the quantity which normally wouldn't be an issue if this was an oil you will lose amplitude. This is because on impact the grease becomes a fluid it's very slippery and outstanding but if it's heavy the edges of the escape wheel are not an impact and there literally tearing through the grease.

Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf 1.28 MB · 11 downloads

I find that oil the escape wheel teeth when lurbricating with 9415 is easier to control the amount of grease.

[Mark]

Found this on the CousinsUK website - thought it might be useful to some

Moebius_Oil_Chart.pdf

[Xilikon]

Hi everyone, first post for me but a long time lurker of this sub-section as I'm starting into watchmaking. I'm in the process of getting the needed tools and remain some stuff to come with long delays in parcel shipping/deliveries...

I did a lot of research across many forums as I try to get what is really essential and what can be substituted. Here is what I resumed so far in my notes :

Must have oils/grease :

Moebius 9010 : Good for balance and escape wheels jewels. Moebius 8000 is a cheap substitute but with the longer life of synthetic oils, it's better to get 9010 even if it cost a bit more which can be split across over 1000 movements.

Moebius 9415 : For pallet stone. This is the only choice which make sense (some say 941 for slow movements and 9415 for faster movements but the main difference is that 9415 is a grease which turn liquid on impact so it stay on the pallet stone better).

Moebius 9104 (HP-1300) : heavier oil for the rest of the gears jewels, barrel arbor, cannon pinion. some even say it's also good for keyless works but i believe it's not really optimal. It replace Moebius D-5.

The only things left I still get so confused with many contradictory informations are greases for keyless works and braking grease.

For keyless works, the ideal one is 9501/9504 (not sure about the difference) but it's really expensive. Many recommend Molykote DX as a good substitute and I agree it's a good price but the problem is that it can contaminate cleaning solutions and many manufacturers ban them from the servicing protocol. Another one I heard something is Bergeon KT-22, a bit more expensive than Molykote DX but is a clear color, not staining cleaning solutions. I'm thinking to go with KT-22 as keyless works isn't as sollicited as gears/motion works and it's easier to reapply without needing a full service (just disassemble keyless works to clean then reassemble/grease). What are your opinions on this.

For braking grease (only for automatic movements), The general recommendation for the best is Kluber P125 but it's really expensive and not easily found everywhere. The generally accepted consensus is 8212 for Aluminium/steel barrel wall and 8213 for brass barrel wall. But there is also 8217 available, which is a stronger braking grease from what I understand. Since I want to get only 1 which can serve all purposes, what is the proper choice ? Are there other alternatives I might have missed out.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, Xilikon said:

The only things left I still get so confused with many contradictory informations are greases for keyless works and braking grease.

Lubrication threads always are (in the best watchmaking tradition) contradictory. 

My opinion and direct experience: HP-1300 is perfectly fine for keyless and cannon pinion also. And you can try without much worry to dry fit automatic mainsprings, because metal to metal friction is good enough in most cases.

[Geoffrey]

Watch oils and greases are not available where I live. Lot's of them on vendors websites, but nothing actually on the shelf to despatch. So, my wife is making a short trip to EU in a few days and I thought I'd have her bring some back for me. However.....the budget....is tight....because very weak currency from banana republic....

So, if you were going to be limited to maybe four or five oils and greases  - what should they be?

I will be using them for watches - manual and automatic, the odd pocket watch, and clocks up to say Mantel size.

I have some pretty old 8000 and 9020, but would you replace those with exactly the same or go for something different and more modern?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.

[aac58]

This is what I use on automatic and manual watches:

1.- 9010 on the train wheel jewels (except center wheel), cap jewels, pallet stones.

2.- 8200 on the main spring.

3.- 8217 on the barrel wall.

4.- Molikote DX on the barrel bushes and some parts of the keyless work like clutch/yoke friction area.

5.- HP1300 for all the rest including center wheel jewels.

Should I need something else for clocks, I'd use HP1300 instead of Molikote and buy something for clocks.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Geoffrey said:

So, if you were going to be limited to maybe four or five oils and greases  - what should they be?

Five oil is a lot for a good minimalistic approach. You only need 9010 and HP1300. They are good enough to perform where something else is more recommendable. 

[Poljot]

1 hour ago, aac58 said:

This is what I use on automatic and manual watches:

1.- 9010 on the train wheel jewels (except center wheel), cap jewels, pallet stones.

2.- 8200 on the main spring.

3.- 8217 on the barrel wall.

4.- Molikote DX on the barrel bushes and some parts of the keyless work like clutch/yoke friction area.

5.- HP1300 for all the rest including center wheel jewels.

Should I need something else for clocks, I'd use HP1300 instead of Molikote and buy something for clocks.

8030 oil is for clocks