Lubricants

[Geoffrey]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:06 PM, jdm said:

Five oil is a lot for a good minimalistic approach. You only need 9010 and HP1300. They are good enough to perform where something else is more recommendable. 

Thanks for this info. Much appreciated. I have ordered a total of 7 products as recommended by Mark in his post further up this forum. It's Christmas after all!

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Geoffrey said:

I have ordered a total of 7 products as recommended by Mark in his post further up this forum. 

I know that Mark's list and training includes D5 but that is perfectly replaced by HP-1300. I think that more recently he also began using the latter exclusively. 
Personally as a beginner I've found that priority need to be on a lot more important issues rather than having a large range of lubricants.

[andrewmayer]

I'm an enthusiastic amateur and have previously built a number of watches using the NH35/36 movements - but I can feel myself getting sucked into the world of Swiss movements. I've decided to help a fix a friends watch running on a Sellita SW200-1 which is a ETA 2824-2 clone (see below).

I would like to become confident taking a movement apart, especially the 2824. And so I was wondering about buying a cheap Chinese clone from Ebay for $30 to practice on such as this: https://ebay.us/9eIyBk. Does that sound like a good start?

I have the 2824 datasheet and the basic tools required (timegrapher, set of Bergeon screw drivers, movement holder, finger cots, loupe, dust cover, brass tweezers, rodico etc etc) but I don't have anything to lubricate movements, or know what to do.  What is a good start for a beginner doing this as a hobby and wanting to get better performance out of cheap/old movements? Is it possible to get started with lubrication equipment for less than $50? If so, how?

Thanks!!

 

 

[rodabod]

I think this top has been covered in great depth already. As a bare minimum, I would say you could get away with using a light oil like 9010 and a heavy oil like D5.   And you’d need at least one fine oiler and preferably also a thicker one. 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, andrewmayer said:

Is it possible to get started with lubrication equipment for less than $50? If so, how?

lubrication equipment like the dip oiler and the cup you put the oil in yes you can get those for less than $50. But if you want to include the lubrication in that $50 then that isn't really going to happen. We could recommend some super cheap lubrication but it's kind of like buying a supercheap watch tools it's not really a good solution it's a waste of money.

To give you an idea you can look through the pages at the link below. I would initially just skim through the whole thing don't worry about the fine print and then you can go back and decide which ones you like the best. That's because there's a lot of ideas opinions and views on the subject.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/83-lubricants/

 

[Klassiker]

It's just about doable, If you don't buy Moebius lubricants. I use Dr. Tillwich (1-3, 3-5 and B52). I don't know If they are available in your country. Here is one of the online sellers in Germany. 

https://www.uhrmacherwerkzeuge.com/Uhrenoele

That's the absolute minimum to get started, and obviously requires compromises. For example, you don't have any braking grease or high-beat pallet oil in there.

[andrewmayer]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

lubrication equipment like the dip oiler and the cup you put the oil in yes you can get those for less than $50. But if you want to include the lubrication in that $50 then that isn't really going to happen. We could recommend some super cheap lubrication but it's kind of like buying a supercheap watch tools it's not really a good solution it's a waste of money.

To give you an idea you can look through the pages at the link below. I would initially just skim through the whole thing don't worry about the fine print and then you can go back and decide which ones you like the best. That's because there's a lot of ideas opinions and views on the subject.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/83-lubricants/

 

Great thread! Many thanks!

[Nibbler]

As a totally new watchmaker in training this is one of the few items I just cringed at the price and bought. I think there are people on ebay repackaging smaller amounts bringing the price down a bit. You might take a look. One thing I would also recommend as a newbie is before attempting to lubricate a watch, see if you can just get the watch apart and back together first. This will keep the lubricant spread beyond the watch down to a minimum. 

 

Matt

[Poljot]

34 minutes ago, Nibbler said:

As a totally new watchmaker in training this is one of the few items I just cringed at the price and bought. I think there are people on ebay repackaging smaller amounts bringing the price down a bit. You might take a look. One thing I would also recommend as a newbie is before attempting to lubricate a watch, see if you can just get the watch apart and back together first. This will keep the lubricant spread beyond the watch down to a minimum. 

 

Matt

One step is missing : "just get the watch apart", clean all components, " and back together first". Cheers!

[dreadnought]

Hi watch people

I am a new member here,I am 67 so need to pick the members brains. I used to tinker with pocket watches for some years but stopped when my Wife passed away.  Now I am getting back into it with the help of my Granddaughter and this internet thing,  I have read through the 12 pages of lubrication with some interest, Moebius do seem to do a lot more oils than they did 10 to 15 years ago.  The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap.  I have 4 or 5 downloads of Moebius oil sheets recommending what oil to put where on a watch, the 8000 has now it seems been replaced with ,941, 9010, 9020 and the 8141 with D3 to D5.  So instead of 2 bottles of oil we now have 5, That must have increased their profit margins by a few hundred %.  I did have a few books on watch & clock repair and 2 of them date back to the turn of the last century, one old watchmaker used walnut oil to lube his clocks, by simply sticking the pivot into a walnut.  Any way thats my first penny's worth.  Thank you for your time.

[Poljot]

11 minutes ago, dreadnought said:

The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap.  I have 4 or 5 downloads of Moebius oil sheets recommending what oil to put where on a watch, the 8000 has now it seems been replaced with ,941, 9010, 9020 and the 8141 with D3 to D5.  So instead of 2 bottles of oil we now have 5, That must have increased their profit margins by a few hundred %.  I did have a few books on watch & clock repair and 2 of them date back to the turn of the last century, one old watchmaker used walnut oil to lube his clocks, by simply sticking the pivot into a walnut.  Any way thats my first penny's worth.  Thank you for your time.

Hi submariner,

If you are only planning to fix old / vintage / pocket watches, etc then this is what you need:

8000

8141

8200

8030

and perhaps 8217 for automatic watches barrels

And a bottle of Gordon's Gin (also good for cleaning periscopes)

[dreadnought]

Morning Poljot

Thanks for your reply, the mention of gin, we used to get a wine glass full of Gin from the officers steward, 2 dips on a cloth for the search periscope & 1 dip for the attack scope, the rest was shared with the other 2 members of my team, dont half bring back memories

 

dreadnought

[jdm]

12 hours ago, dreadnought said:

The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap. 

Good oils but natural oils, which means shorter shelf life, shorter in-watch life, and lesser performance.
So the current practice, whenever possible, is to  use synthetic watch oils all around, including on vintage / antique movements, and that explains why they aren't a recommeded purchase. Would one use (if even available) the same oils made 60 years ago on a 60 years old car? I don't think so.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, dreadnought said:

The 2 Moebius oils that I have not seen mentioned  is the Moebius 8000 & 8141 both a good oil, still available and quite cheap.

one of the really useful features of this message board is the search feature. For instance searching for 8000 reveals we've discussed it before. it looks like we've even discussed 8141 but not as much.

42 minutes ago, jdm said:

which means shorter shelf life, shorter in-watch life, and lesser performance.

at the link below you can download technical specifications for the various watch oils.  one of my friends who took up watch repair after he retired originally learned from his grandfather. So he embraced his grandfathers lubrication teachings. This means we typically bicker over lubrication. One day I asked a question about service life when he worked in his grandfather shop. as he pointed out the watches were not automatic watches and they were not sealed up tight. so the recommended service interval was one year.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

[jdm]

Some postings about a seller moved to the appropriate topic.

 

[Robbie010]

Good Morning!

I read the thread on essential oils / grease and so went ahead and bought the following based on the recommendations:

Moebius 8200 Semi-Liquid Grease

Moebius 9415 Synthetic Grease

Moebius D5 Microgliss Oil

Moebius 9010/2 Oil

However, I am currently following Marks youtube video to rebuild my Dubois Depraz Chronograph module and he seems to mention various oils / greases, none of which I have.......

In the video Mark uses HP1300, HP500 and Moebius 9501.

Has anyone put together a comparison chart or a list of swapable oils / greases or am going to have to fork out another £100?? 

[Nucejoe]

In my book, you already are an oil rich man.       

[Aloha73]

On 6/14/2020 at 3:23 PM, Mark said:

I made this for anybody getting started, feel free to share.

 

Recommended Lubricants for Getting Started.pdf 588.12 kB · 34 downloads

Hello Mark

This is my first post on your forum, but I've been subscribed to your YouTube channel for sometime now.

Your video's are EXCEPTIONALLY informative.

Your calm, methodical approach is nothing short of inspirational. 

I've cross-referenced some of these in my posts on the The Watch Site forum and quoted you as the source.

I'm new to horology, and have been bitten by the bug!

The initial outlay to get tooled up has been quite high, and only time will tell whether I shall be able to recoup my investment.

My first strip-down and re-build is to be a Seiko 5 Automatic - SEIKO 5 7S26A-3160

I know your video: 'Seiko 7s26 full strip-down service, restoration and watch repair tutorial' is based on the 2nd generation 7S26B movement, but according to Seiko 'the design of the balance staff' is what's changed though I cannot spot the difference in the respective technical data sheets.

After I've gained experience with that, I plant to work on a Seiko Bell-Matic 4006A-6031

Restoration of 1970s Seiko Bell-matic, Rusted Solid and broken - Lets get this watch working! 

Boy was that watch in a state !

People who have no respect for timepieces should not be permitted to wear them.

I'm on this post, because its on the topic of lubricants. 

I apologise if the question has already been answered elsewhere. 

Your link above for Recommended Lubricants suggests the following to start with:

OPTION A

• Moebius 9010 
• Moebius D5
• Moebius 8200
• Molykote DX

The Seiko Technical manual 7S26A / 4006A refer to the use of :

OPTION B

AO-3 = Moebius A = Synt-A-Lube = 9010
SEIKO S-4 = Moebius 8301 (suggested by Cousins as an alternative) 
SEIKO S-6

Will need to add - Moebius 8217 to this list.

They do not talk about servicing the barrel walls or mainspring but suggest replacement (obviously depends on 'Amplitude' results from timegrapher). 

Your recommendation is Moebius 8217 (barrel wall of automatic movements)

Would use of AF Switzerland's 'Novostar Barrel Grease' (17311) - 35% cheaper than 'Moebius 8217' be really out of place, or would you just bite the bullet?

Also in your video, you do not oil the mainspring - suggested 'Moebius 8141'

Some do and others don't - Any thoughts on this?

Question is 'OPTION A' or 'OPTION B' in light of the technical manuals or stick with your recommendation?

Look forward to your reply.  

[richiesgr]

Hi

I've been to quick to buy my lubricant and they are not what you recommend so I don't really know if they are still usable and if yes what will be the corresponding with your lubricant

So here what I've brought:

• Moebius 9104
• Moebius 8200
• Moebius 941
• Moebius 9010 

Could please help me to use the right one ?

Thanks

[JohnR725]

20 minutes ago, richiesgr said:

they are not what you recommend so I don't really know if they are still usable and if yes what will be the corresponding with your lubricant

While I can make a wild guess based on this being a horological discussion group what sort of horological items would you like to lubricate?

21 minutes ago, richiesgr said:

So here what I've brought:

• Moebius 9104
• Moebius 8200
• Moebius 941
• Moebius 9010 

As you've already purchased them we will have to work with these were we?

To understand the lubrication's you've purchased the website is below you get all the technical specifications.

Then you have a problem? If we look at the early early days of lubrication it's a light oil, I heavier oil and a grease. Then today we had in specialty oils for special applications but we still follow that theme starting with a light oil on the balance pivots working to I heavier oil towards the center wheel.

Your light oil is the 9010 the universal balance pivots oil. Also a light oil is the 941 which today has been replaced by 9415 but here's will still work is used on the pallet stones not the pallet pivots.

But where is your heavier oil? Based on my original question I'm going to assume you're only my work on really really really tiny ladies mechanical watches in which case you could probably use both those oils for the pivots a really don't need a heavier oil but otherwise you need heavier oil.

The 9104 is your general grease your playset on all the metal on metal friction parts.  the 8200 is a specialty grease used on the mainspring.

Then I snipped out the  chart found in the website below and highlighted your lubricants.

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

[watchweasol]

As JohnR has stated this is an emotive subject. The links an charts supplied by JohnR  are comprehensive, but new products are being developed as we speak.

[richiesgr]

Thanks for your help. 

When I talk about "they are not what you recommend". I was talking about the product recommended by Mark Lovick in the course that I'm following (Sorry it was not stated).

So Mark's recommendation is to get D5 and I think this is the one I misses. I thought the corresponding was 9104 but can't see the 9104 on the chart at all. or may be 9104 = 9504 (don't know anymore) 

Best Regards 

[clockboy]

In my experience the lubricant used for the keyless side is not critical. I have used both grease and oil based lubricants without any issues. Lubricants for the going side however has to be given more consideration. I like the HP mobius oils because they seem to stay where put and being coloured you can visually see how much has been applied. This is a contentious issue for many horologists with many views this is just what I do.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, richiesgr said:

"they are not what you recommend".

Don't worry about not recommended because? There are some discussion groups where you can't even discuss lubrication as fistfights will break out. People tend to be very passionate about whatever the heck they're using and very very Not willing to change or do anything. Plus there's a lot of confusion on recommended lists. Especially since watch repair spans 100 or more years With people looking at tech sheets that is spanned quite a number of years that ends up with just lots of confusion with lubrication.

4 hours ago, richiesgr said:

9104 on the chart at all. or may be 9104 = 9504 (don't know anymore) 

Okay it looks like my confusion my bad. There actually is a 9104 I'm attaching the image it's normally known as something else which I'll comment below. My problem was I saw the nine and the four and that typically with the right additional stuff makes it the grease a high-pressure grease. That means the highlighting in my chart may be slightly wrong.

4 hours ago, richiesgr said:

So Mark's recommendation is to get D5

Now we get a interesting confusion. 9104 does exist on the chart. But normally it's known as high-priced 1300 although normally they abbreviate high-priced into HP. Then probably from their point of view it's high-profit although we don't actually know that. So I think they actually called high performance and that numeric designation makes it high performance 1300 I'm attaching an image from their website.

There tends to be a slow migration from mineral oils and natural oils still being used to synthetic oils. But I hadn't noticed it before the chart in the fine print the bottom. The HP oils are only recommended for ruby bearings if your lubricating with brass bushings or American pocket watches for instance with 7 J we have a lot of brass they are recommending D5 which is the equivalent oil in viscosity. I doubt that Mark would recommend HP 1300 and D5 I suspect he was recommending the grease and the  D5.

So you have to look at what you get it may be that I interpreted correctly that you did get the grease your missing the heavy oil which would be the D5. Which fortunately is really really cheap compared to the synthetic oils.

 

[PeterS]

I have looked for a guidance what oils to use for a size 16 pocket watch on the web and came across the BHI document:
https://theindex.nawcc.org/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

If I'm correct all I need is:
HP 500 (equivalent to 9020) for balance pivots, escape wheel, train wheels
HP 1300 barrel arbour
941 pallet jewels
8200 mainspring
8030 keyless (I'd use 9501 as that's what I have)