Lubricants

[bobm12]

Exactly!

[rogart63]

  On 4/1/2016 at 4:38 AM, bobm12 said:

Roger, you can also use some mixture of 9010 and something else...(I've seen this somewhere), you let evaporate and voila! Cheaper and probably a good substitute.

Cheers,

Bob

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That is what i am doing now: Just serviced a Seiko 8305 and was reading on watchbloke .http://thewatchbloke.co.uk/2015/09/12/seiko-8306-8020/#more-3799  he had trouble with the lubrication of the reverse wheel in the Seiko. So there it's better to use the 9010 . I am more thinking of the ETA movements. 

And o my god there are so many parts in the Seiko 8305  

[rogart63]

I bought some Lubeta V105  from France. Will be testing it as soon as it arrives. Have a service of an old  Squale with 2824-2 movement in the post  anyday.  

[szbalogh]

Got a Roskopf second version pocket watch (pin pallet escapement) a few days ago. It has really big parts compared to my earlier repairs (seagull ST-6, DG2813, EB1197..). It has brass holes and jewel end stones at the balance. More weird is the rest of the train; brass holes in the main plate and jewel holes on the bridges up to the escape wheel. The rest has brass bushings. Temporarily applied 9020 in all places up to the escape wheel and after shaping the broken balance spring it is ticking well.

The mainspring barrel (~2 cm in diameter  ) is just like a new one, pretty clean, no sign of wear nor grey lubricant. I think i wont touch that, leave it as is.

The main question is, what and where to apply after the overhaul for a movement with such big parts and strange "jewels"? I have 9010, 9020, D-5 and something unidentified oil from a local watchmaker, possibly Moebius 8000.

[bobm12]

Hi SZ,

This is my take on this based on what you have:

9020 is "great for the oscillating weights and other moving components of automatic watches. Can also be used on the pivots of center wheels and barrel arbors." according to Otto Frei so I would assume it would do good also on the arbor of your movement and other parts that do a lot of "effort".

You also have D-5 which according to the same source it works on the gear train, barrel-arbor, steel/steel frictions-partners.

9010 is more like a general thin oil for parts that need to move fast or have no "pressure/effort"...I don't know if I'm explaining it right.

From the same source as above I got this: Moebius Classical Oil "8000" can be used on pallet stones and pins for 5 to 8 3/4 ligne movements. Moebius Classical Oil "8000" is also recommended for 5 to 8 3/4 ligne Escape Wheels (Moebius 941), Balance Staff (replaces Moebius 9010), Center Wheel (replaces Moebius 9020 Moebius Classical Oil "8000" ),, use Moebius Classical Oil "8000" on the Wheel Train (replaces Moebius 9010 ), Barrel Arbors (replaces Moebius 9020), , use Moebius Classical Oil "8000" on the pallet pins found on 9 3/4 all the way up to Pocket Watch Movements, Moebius Classical Oil "8000" can also be used on Escape Wheels and Balance Staffs 9 3/4 ligne to 19 ligne movements. Moebius Classical Oil "8000" can be used on the Center Wheel, Wheel Train and Barrrel Arbors of 9 3/4 ligne all the way up to Large clocks in place of Moebius 8141."

I would say you need something like a Moebius 8200 family of oils or maybe 8300 family according to use and material of the barrel.

This is MHO since I'm not familiar with your movement.

Cheers,

Bob

[jdrichard]

  On 4/23/2016 at 4:24 PM, bobm12 said:

Hi SZ,

This is my take on this based on what you have:

9020 is "great for the oscillating weights and other moving components of automatic watches. Can also be used on the pivots of center wheels and barrel arbors." according to Otto Frei so I would assume it would do good also on the arbor of your movement and other parts that do a lot of "effort".

You also have D-5 which according to the same source it works on the gear train, barrel-arbor, steel/steel frictions-partners.

9010 is more like a general thin oil for parts that need to move fast or have no "pressure/effort"...I don't know if I'm explaining it right.

From the same source as above I got this: Moebius Classical Oil "8000" can be used on pallet stones and pins for 5 to 8 3/4 ligne movements. Moebius Classical Oil "8000" is also recommended for 5 to 8 3/4 ligne Escape Wheels (Moebius 941), Balance Staff (replaces Moebius 9010), Center Wheel (replaces Moebius 9020 Moebius Classical Oil "8000" ),, use Moebius Classical Oil "8000" on the Wheel Train (replaces Moebius 9010 ), Barrel Arbors (replaces Moebius 9020), , use Moebius Classical Oil "8000" on the pallet pins found on 9 3/4 all the way up to Pocket Watch Movements, Moebius Classical Oil "8000" can also be used on Escape Wheels and Balance Staffs 9 3/4 ligne to 19 ligne movements. Moebius Classical Oil "8000" can be used on the Center Wheel, Wheel Train and Barrrel Arbors of 9 3/4 ligne all the way up to Large clocks in place of Moebius 8141."

I would say you need something like a Moebius 8200 family of oils or maybe 8300 family according to use and material of the barrel.

This is MHO since I'm not familiar with your movement.

Cheers,

Bob

Great advice. I will be assembling the Seiko Chrono 6309 tomorrow and don't want to screw it up. I also have a few old pocket watches that need lubing. If the pocket watch seems tight when you wind it, do you think it is a gummed up main spring ? The crown just does not turn easily, but does turn. Is this normal or do I need to get out the oil gun:)

[szbalogh]

  On 4/23/2016 at 4:24 PM, bobm12 said:

 

Bob

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Thank you for your efforts and time! 

Well, finally applied Li based oil for the keyless and up to the barrel arbor, since i have only one drop of each fine oil. 9020 to the 2 wheels nest the barrel and 9010 for the escape wheel up to the balance. Running fine laied dowm with around 180-200 degrees amplitude according the mark on the balance. Although, its getting slower on the side, below 120 degrees. This was not the case before service. It had around 140-160 degrees amplitude in all positions. I will try thicker oil on the balance pivots if it wont get better after 1-2 days of running.

During the service i noticed that it has only 3 jewels . First i tought that both balance pinions are cap-jewelled but the one in the plate is a simple steel plate. So You suggesting maybe D-5 here is better? And the one in the escape wheel is cracked. Maybe a thicker one here till i find a replacement jewel?

 

[bobm12]

@jdrichardHonestly, IMHO, JD, I would take apart that pocket watch and give it a complete maintenance. In the end, yes, you will have to use your "oil gun"! But first clean and inspect. I believe the treatment of the mainspring is a little different from the autos since that one doesn't slip. So, maybe 8200 is in order on the spring and the barrel goes dry?. Also, you would normally use thicker oils for "bigger" movements....depending on how big is that pocket watch.

As far as the Seiko, anything you do for the 7S26 will probably do the trick on that one. Lawson has an excellent walkthrough about this 7S26 and the post talks about oils too. You probably can use D5 instead of the Seiko S-6 and some graphite based 8300 series or even 8200 series grease instead of the S-4 for the barrel as long as it is breaking grease (the actual mainspring I like to clean and lubricate with 8200 so the coils slip among themselves, not on the barrel walls). I would try and get Moebius 941 or 9415 for the pallets though in a pinch you can still use 9010. NOTE:S-4 or S-6 I'm always confused which one is the black one...which is the graphite based one that goes in the barrel so please change the above accordingly if I mixed them up!

@szbaloghSZ, I think you are doing just great. The amplitude thing could also be a weak mainspring. Some jewels may actually take D5 while others will take 9010 depending on the work they do. If speed is needed (balance, etc) 9010 is indicated. If force rather than speed is needed, D5 may be the one you want. The idea is to "create" a "soft" bushing with the oil. Too thin an oil will break when parts are transmitting force (power train?) Too much oil will slow down the movement when too much is applied specially in sections where speed is necessary. A thicker or a more "staying" grease is beneficial when on the keyless works since you want it to stay (like everywhere in the watch regardless) but they are usually rubbing hard so you also want a smooth "action".

All that said, I would inspect carefully the hairspring to determine if the low amplitude is due to oil or dirt contamination, magnetism or simply too much oil (or too little, or misplaced) on the pivots. Check the state of the jewels in the balance and its pivots too...rust could be also a reason when localized there. Regretfully I can't observe you watch, much as I would like to, so this is the general way I would approach this problem. Is this helping any?

Cheers, guys and good luck, keep me in the loop,

Bob

 

[jdrichard]

  On 4/24/2016 at 12:43 PM, bobm12 said:

@jdrichardHonestly, IMHO, JD, I would take apart that pocket watch and give it a complete maintenance. In the end, yes, you will have to use your "oil gun"! But first clean and inspect. I believe the treatment of the mainspring is a little different from the autos since that one doesn't slip. So, maybe 8200 is in order on the spring and the barrel goes dry?. Also, you would normally use thicker oils for "bigger" movements....depending on how big is that pocket watch.

As far as the Seiko, anything you do for the 7S26 will probably do the trick on that one. Lawson has an excellent walkthrough about this 7S26 and the post talks about oils too. You probably can use D5 instead of the Seiko S-6 and some graphite based 8300 series or even 8200 series grease instead of the S-4 for the barrel as long as it is breaking grease (the actual mainspring I like to clean and lubricate with 8200 so the coils slip among themselves, not on the barrel walls). I would try and get Moebius 941 or 9415 for the pallets though in a pinch you can still use 9010. NOTE:S-4 or S-6 I'm always confused which one is the black one...which is the graphite based one that goes in the barrel so please change the above accordingly if I mixed them up! [emoji4]

@szbaloghSZ, I think you are doing just great. The amplitude thing could also be a weak mainspring. Some jewels may actually take D5 while others will take 9010 depending on the work they do. If speed is needed (balance, etc) 9010 is indicated. If force rather than speed is needed, D5 may be the one you want. The idea is to "create" a "soft" bushing with the oil. Too thin an oil will break when parts are transmitting force (power train?) Too much oil will slow down the movement when too much is applied specially in sections where speed is necessary. A thicker or a more "staying" grease is beneficial when on the keyless works since you want it to stay (like everywhere in the watch regardless) but they are usually rubbing hard so you also want a smooth "action".

All that said, I would inspect carefully the hairspring to determine if the low amplitude is due to oil or dirt contamination, magnetism or simply too much oil (or too little, or misplaced) on the pivots. Check the state of the jewels in the balance and its pivots too...rust could be also a reason when localized there. Regretfully I can't observe you watch, much as I would like to, so this is the general way I would approach this problem. Is this helping any?

Cheers, guys and good luck, keep me in the loop,

Bob

 

Bob, the Seiko is a 6309 movement. I am reading and learning from all your advise, thanks.

[bobm12]

Thank you JD,

Here is the tech data:

6309A.pdfFetching info...

You can use moly grease in place of the Seiko Watch Oil S-2 and HP 1000 instead of S-6. The "V" and the "A" oils could be the same 9010. Sorry the pdf is not in color!

As I said before, you can treat this movement almost as a 7S26 for oiling purposes.

Cheers,

Bob

[jdrichard]

  On 4/24/2016 at 2:30 PM, bobm12 said:

Thank you JD,

Here is the tech data:

6309A.pdfFetching info...

You can use moly grease in place of the Seiko Watch Oil S-2 and HP 1000 instead of S-6. The "V" and the "A" oils could be the same 9010. Sorry the pdf is not in color! [emoji4]

As I said before, you can treat this movement almost as a 7S26 for oiling purposes.

Cheers,

Bob

Thanks Bob

[szbalogh]

 

  On 4/24/2016 at 12:43 PM, bobm12 said:

Bob

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Yes, great help! Thank You!

The impulse "pin" is a simple shaped steel plate engaging the pin lever which is also steel. Stripped down and D-5 is now here. Changed to D-5 in the cracked jewel too. It may be slower but will last longer. There was to much oil on the excape wheel teeth (steel on steel since pin lever escapement), which congregated on the first pin in a big drop. Washed down and added just enough. 

Balance also trued to some extent, i dont have calippers but much better now. 

Beat error also carefully corrected (see picture).

True, the hairspring is also faulty, it was entangled when cam to me. But ~200 degrees is respectable considering the 100 year age  Actually, the amplitude seems higher now. 

Cant measure the accuracy right now since the 17280 bph speed. No one application can handle it. But from the calculations from the wave sample it is ~80 s/hour slower. Have to play with the hairspring a bit. 

[mcass]

OK I have been following this thread for sometime now loosely. Would I be correct in summarizing that basically, if you plan to work on more than one style, or one brand of watch, one must have approximate 50-100 different types of oils on hand that may or may not ever be needed? Or Moebius 8000 in a pinch.....

[bobm12]

I'd say D-5 or the Hp equivalent would be handy, mcass, also 9010 is a "defacto standard", a mainspring grease is also a good thing to have and of course, some moly and the 9415 for the pallets...I guess that would sum it all...unless the movements are bigger or much smaller than usual....then maybe one more type of oil accordingly...I personally have many types at hand and once in a while buy another, different type just in case. I've have had need of them all at some point (by following the tech sheets) although I realize I could have made do with just the basic 3 or 4.

The HP line of Moebius has a longer shelf life and perform better than the natural oils but they are much more expensive...it is all a matter of "preference" to put is one way.

Cheers,

Bob

[jdrichard]

What is this program you are using?

From Canada

[szbalogh]

  On 4/25/2016 at 12:11 AM, jdrichard said:

What is this program you are using?

From Canada

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Its a simple wave editor. Just measuring elapsed time between beats. Colored numbers were put therein Windows Paint

I managed to get the loss down to 7.7 min/day.

[jdrichard]

  On 4/25/2016 at 8:20 AM, szbalogh said:

Its a simple wave editor. Just measuring elapsed time between beats. Colored numbers were put therein Windows Paint [emoji4]

I managed to get the loss down to 7.7 min/day.

Cool, thanks.

From Canada

[Geo]

Let's get back to lube in this section guys.

[jdrichard]

  On 4/24/2016 at 2:30 PM, bobm12 said:

Thank you JD,

Here is the tech data:

6309A.pdfFetching info...

You can use moly grease in place of the Seiko Watch Oil S-2 and HP 1000 instead of S-6. The "V" and the "A" oils could be the same 9010. Sorry the pdf is not in color! [emoji4]

As I said before, you can treat this movement almost as a 7S26 for oiling purposes.

Cheers,

Bob

The manual calls for S4. I thought I could use D5 as an equivalent?

[ftwizard]

Now I've splashed out on some 8217 for the Auto mainspring barrel walls, and some 9415 for the pallet jewel I'll have far more than I'll ever need for those applications. Can they be used for anything else? 

[HorologicalHobby]

  On 4/25/2016 at 11:41 PM, jdrichard said:

The manual calls for S4. I thought I could use D5 as an equivalent?

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As a rule of thumb. Thicker pivots use D5, thinner pivots use 9010. If it moves slow, D5, moves fast 9010. Automatics/smaller watches I lean towards more 9010. Big watches like pocketwatches get D5 everywhere except the escape wheel.

Did you guys ever sort where to buy them? When I bought mine, I got tiny "sampler" sized bottles from a french ebay store, like $10-20 each, and they've lasted me years.

[HorologicalHobby]

Sorry for the double post. But this is where I got my oils http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oil-Grease-lubricants-Moebius-swiss-made-to-choose-for-watchmakers-chronograph-/151144554717?var=&hash=item2330eae0dd:m:mar9MRBQY0dSFs-N1enHVHw

Was the cheapest/smallest quantity I could find anywhere. And I have no affiliation with this store, if there is an issue mods feel free to delete my post.

[12toneman]

Hey, gang. Would these be acceptable Novostar substitutes for Moebius?:

Novostar B for 9010

Novostar L for 9415

Novostar R for D5

Novostar Mainspring Grease for 8200

Also, while I have you on the line: Up to now I have been using Moebius 8000 for just about everything. I know this isn't ideal, but what is 8000 generally used for? Thansk!

[clockboy]

I personally just use the trusted Moebius  lubricants because it has a proven longevity. A bit more expensive but 5ml will lubricate a lot of watches. I have attached the Moebius lubrication chart. 

 

2_Oil_Chart-2.pdf.pdfFetching info...

[JohnR725]

Attached is a Novostar Lubrication chart it also has the Moebius equivalents.

One of the things I've always found interesting about Novostar Lubrication Is the rather confusing description of where you should use it. If you look at the chart it looks like Novostar B Is just about the universal oil for everything in the watch?

Novostar oil.pdf