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Lubricants


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Hi Bob,

 

I have been using Anchor watch oil, I think I got it from redrooster UK on eBay, though I am pretty sure I have seen it listed on US sites

 

As far as results go I guess only time will tell, seem to work OK in the short term, though I'm sure the purists will enumerate the reasons it is no good, I figure they were oiling watches long before Moebius got into the act. :D .

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Horological lubrication one of my favorite subjects. A subject that people become extremely opinionated at the to point of lubrication wars literally breaking out in some discussion groups which prevents open discussion. Then were looking at the problem of lubrication differently which results in different choices of lubrication.

 

Lubrication choices then and now. One of my friends learned watch repair from his grandfather. He was always laughing at the quantity of types of lubrication I have. It's because his grandfather only used three at the most. Basically the traditional American watch company's recommendation light oil, medium oil and grease. So rather than argue the point of why I have so many and he has so few I asked a different question. So the question I ask is how long did they expect an overhaul to last? So they were expecting one year life because the watches are not sealed. Basically manual wind no automatics lubrication only had to go one year.  Today they keep extending the service interval time but 4 to 5 years seems to be common. This is assuming a modern water resistant automatic watch that's reasonably tight. Then the watch companies are currently trying to figure out how to get rid of lubrication altogether and even extending their warranty recommendations for servicing beyond five years.

So what are we trying to achieve with lubrication? First were trying to reduce friction. Then hopefully preventing the parts from wearing out. Or simplistically we want I watches to run forever keep perfect time and never wear out.

Then we have an incredible quantity of unknown things even if we do what we perceive to be the correct thing to do. We have extremely limited specifications for any of our lubrication oil's. Like for instance how long do oils last in a watch? Or how long does oil last in a bottle is it okay to use that bottle off of eBay that's 50 years old? Then other unknowns cleaning, cleaning is the first step to lubrication any contaminants left behind screw up the lubrication properties. Whether the watch is sealed tight or an open type case basically environmental concerns.

So how can we tell if we've done it right?  In the old days this was easy the natural lubricants would gum up stopping or causing at the platform so poorly might as well of been stopped. So easiest way to tell if for doing it right is with a timing machine perhaps. So friction and the watch affects timing so to observe this I would recommend time of the watch in four pendant positions and dial-up and dial down. Then 24 hours later do it again. Then as we went to test out our different lubricants perhaps next 5 to 25 years of testing until the lubricants finally disintegrate. Except if we had something like an automatic watch conceivably especially with the earlier ones is a lot of metal on metal rubbing and that might disintegrate long before something shows up the timing machine. The same as the winding and setting mechanisms. So the other way is about every five years when servicing a watch note the effect of whatever you are doing for lubrication.

 

Then there those other problems like 9010 the favorite lubrication for balance pivots just not my favorite. Are you using it correctly? It’s not my favorite because it doesn’t last forever not that I’m expecting forever but if I’ve looked at my watches over a long period time 9010 is always the first to disappear. ETA has interesting tech sheets they used to have manufacturing sheets. In reference to are you using it correctly chances are probably not for 9010. From the manufacturing sheet image pasted below I’ve highlighted some things. Notice under balance staff interesting phrase of “Epilame-coated” you’ll notice it’s used several other places and one place it’s not mentioned but it is also used is on the Incabloc balance jewels. Simple answer this is surface treating to prevent the spread of oil. The layer is very thin you cannot see it if you use the wrong cleaning fluids you wash it off and even the correct cleaning fluids it eventually comes off. So surface treating as been around for a number years watch companies for unknown reasons don't always put it in their service sheets. Although on the modern service sheets they do tend to be mentioning it now just not on the older ones.

 

Horological lubrication properties somebody has done a test for us it's a shame they didn't test all of them or a bigger sampling. So the tests are basically friction the contact angle which has to do with spreading and spreading. Or simplistically we want are oiled to stay where every put it. So notice 9010 is on the list and it's spreading characteristics are not outstanding. Interesting one is Elgin M56-b which comes up on eBay from time to time and people are still using it. Is why made a reference to using a 50-year-old bottle of oil off of eBay because people are because it seems to work after 50 years. It's outstanding properties didn't go unnoticed Notice I have a couple links regarding Elgin oil it's being currently manufactured again. So modern equivalent looks quite interesting except I can only find it in big bottles which are expensive.

 

So at hobbyist level it probably really doesn't matter what you use. You accept that some things just aren't going to last as long but then you're not trying to push having a watch run every single day for the next five years. If you are doing this commercially then lubrication choices are different. It would make an interesting discussion with a customer five years from now explaining that you went with the cheapest oil possible and their watch has disintegrated because of that.

 

 

So first two links explain the evils of what happens if you don't service your watch properly and why you have to service it at regular intervals or else. Unfortunately it doesn't take into account whatever it was previously serviced with and I don't think all the answers are necessarily black-and-white..

 

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/how-often-service-watch-watchmakers-view-789280.html

 

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/do-watches-need-serviced-even-when-not-worn-1636874-3.html

 

Elgin oil the first is a link talking about it the second talking about why it was good enough to be reproduced today.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=JQi0BwAAQBAJ&pg=PT17&lpg=PT17&dq=elgin+56-a&source=bl&ots=TeA_kUP6yz&sig=V8CWMQiI_GBFpdBMpyYE3xXACYE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwillZaSg5bKAhUFxGMKHXDWCLcQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=elgin%2056-a&f=false

 

http://www.dr-tillwich.com/index.php/en/informationen-8/interessantes/elgin-oil

 

This link is here because I've attached an image which comes from this link.

http://mb.nawcc.org/archive/index.php/t-39391.html

post-673-0-06830600-1452149336_thumb.jpg

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What a great couple of posts John, I found these most interesting indeed. As an engineer and hobby horologist, I have always thought there is a lot BS talked about oils. Having said that, I am using the recommended oils at the moment, but have been intending to do a couple of experiments myself with different oils. I await with great interest to hear others take on the subject.

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There is one more to check - Ethsyntha, I use Ethsyntha 1-3 (replaces oils number 1 till 3, they have some more oils in the offer  of course) and Moebuis 6300 for clutches/mainsprings, but thats for pocket watches. Its reasonably priced, and you can get it in small quantities like 3ml, which is a lot for collectors cleaning their own watches. So far Im happy with it, no issues at all.

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There is one more to check - Ethsyntha, I use Ethsyntha 1-3 (replaces oils number 1 till 3, they have some more oils in the offer  of course) and Moebuis 6300 for clutches/mainsprings, but thats for pocket watches. Its reasonably priced, and you can get it in small quantities like 3ml, which is a lot for collectors cleaning their own watches. So far Im happy with it, no issues at all.

This appears to be the data sheet for Ethsyntha 1-3

 

http://www.dr-tillwich.com/Prospekte/drtillwich_engl/PDF-en/tk2213ea.pdf

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As far as I figured out Ethsyntha goes also under the Dr.Tillwich, or the other way around.

for example: http://www.comtoise-uhren-shop.de/Uhrenoele/Dr-Tillwich-Sorte-3-5-3-5-ml-295.html

A German company. I haven't had a reply from them yet.

Ethsyntha is a halve synthetic oil which has also my interest. Dr.Tillwich has also full-synthetic watch oils and those datasheets are easy to find, just select the application: http://www.dr-tillwich.com/index.php/en/produkte-3/schmierstoffe/auswahl-ueber-technische-anwendungen

Does anybody see some use for the synthetic lithium grease I ordered? A dropping point of 288 deg C (550F). I was thinking of for levers, lever-springs, winding-stem and other "stationary" parts.

Thank you for the great replies so far........it's getting very interesting!

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I have like many read many, many posts/articles/books re-lubrication & the more I have read the more I get confused.

I have experimented with many oils with clocks & have never found any difference in performance. Clocks do have the same tolerances as watches so this might be a factor & different oils might well perform better over time. 

 

For watches I have never used Epilame or Lubrifar for two reasons  a) because I am still not sure how to use them  b) I thought that was the whole idea of using the HP series of lubes by Moebius.

Maybe I am missing out but at present I just use the regular Moebuis oils/greases (D5, 9010 etc.) & I did use HP 1300/1000 on my Rolex but still wonder if it has/will make any difference. 

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A simple way to see how ageing affects oils is put a drop of each oil in a small well in a piece of tinfoil or any light coloured heat resistant material.  Leave on your bench and watch how it darkens and thickens over time.   You can also put on a hot plate or in oven at low temp (60-70C) to accelerate the process.  Animal and veg based oils will darken and thicken quicker, then mineral oils, then synthetic oils then some fancy 'chemical' oils.   Thicker oils will tend to go more 'gummy' than thin oils.   The higher the quality of the basic oil the lower the ageing effects. Oils can also have additives to reduce this effect (eg HP or EP oils).

 

For anyone interested in going deeper into the meaning of oil specs, I did post a thread last year (?) called LUBRICATION BASICS in these forums.

Edited by canthus
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A simple way to see how ageing affects oils is put a drop of each oil in a small well in a piece of tinfoil or any light coloured heat resistant material.  Leave on your bench and watch how it darkens and thickens over time.   You can also put on a hot plate or in oven at low temp (60-70C) to accelerate the process.  Animal and veg based oils will darken and thicken quicker, then mineral oils, then synthetic oils then some fancy 'chemical' oils.   Thicker oils will tend to go more 'gummy' than thin oils.   The higher the quality of the basic oil the lower the ageing effects. Oils can also have additives to reduce this effect (eg HP or EP oils).

 

For anyone interested in going deeper into the meaning of oil specs, I did post a thread last year (?) called LUBRICATION BASICS in these forums.

 

For anyone that's looked for the title LUBRICATION BASICS The reason you can't find it that's not the correct title it can be found at the link below.

 

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/638-lubricants-basics/

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I'm going to give the Dr.Tillwich Etsyntha type 1-3 oil, the type 3-5 oil and the B52 grease a go. Normally the Germans produce high quality stuff and what I received looks very professional. Each bottle in a small cardboard box, sealed in plastic and individual datasheet included.

Total cost for 3.5 ml type 1-3 oil, 20 ml type 3-5 oil, 7 gram B52 grease plus combined registered shipment from Germany to Denmark: €49.75 ≈ $ 54.

The vendor www.watchparts24.com and the direct link to the oils: http://watchparts24.de/navi.php?jtl_token=64fd5f4d65bb25cdb9b2a31833317ab3&suchausdruck=Etsyntha

They also sell Moebius oils.

Time will tell if my choice was any good...........

 

Best regards: Roland.

 

P.S.; so far no reply from any of the watch oil- / grease-producers I wrote an email to......

Edited by Endeavor
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  • 1 month later...

Hello All!

New to the forum and relatively new to watch repair. I tried looking for the answer to my question before posting and haven't found anything as of yet, so if I missed it, I apologize.

I wanted to know a bit more about the Moebius 8000 watch oils. Specifically the 8000 and 8141. When I look at a lubrication chart, I see these listed along side the 9010 and D5. Are these viable alternatives? They tend to be more cost effective. Are the 9000's synthetic and the 8000's not?

Will the 8000's work for the slower pocket watches, but not higher beat rate watches?

Here is the chart I am referring to:

2371a0f3ebaccabd80bf91b2a6c6824a.jpg

Thanks in advance for the knowledge! This forum is fantastic!

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For what it's worth, I chose the 8000 series in ignorance when I started out. They are cheaper, but the shelf life is only 2-3 years. Buy the smallest quantity you can... Whatever you choose, don't be drawn in by buying more to get a lower price, you will never use it before it goes out of date!

S

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StuartBaker104, I can get onboard with that. Just wasn't sure if that was the only real difference, or if the synthetics are better in other ways. Nobody that I've read ever brings them up when suggesting oils to purchase, so I wanted to see what the opinions were on the stuff. Guess I'm trying to figure out if it's still a quality oil, just with a much more limited shelf life.

I did read somewhere, that back in the day when pocket watches were king, that the expected time between services was about a year, and now it's more like 5-6. But if I'm servicing my own, then can I use these oils knowing I'll need to service them more often.

Then again, I've also read that every time you take them apart, there is always a chance that you take. Which I can DEFINITELY attest to.

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Question on watch oils, if they only have a shelf life of 2-3 years what is their service life in use?

You expect to get about 5 years from a service, if the oil only lasts for 2-3 years in a sealed container what chance in the environment of a watch movement.

 

Max

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Hey bob, I think I read somewhere else on here that you can use 9010 on the pallet jewels in a pinch. I think it may have been you, which is why I'm asking, but what are your thoughts with that?

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I think it is the first column?

 

Moebius is highly inconsistent and incomplete in their own application chart, that probably has not been updated in 30 years.

Their specialize pallet jewels oil is supposed 914 or 9145, about which it has been written:

 

9415 remains a grease until impact of the pallet, at which time it momentarily liquefies. This keeps lubricant where it belongs and away from the many parts of the escapement where it does not belong

 

Believe that if you wish.

Edited by jdm
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I think it may have been you, which is why I'm asking, but what are your thoughts with that?

 

err yes,...I've said that before but if pressed I only do so on slow beat movements. If you don't have 914 at hand (or don't want to invest on it and make Swatch richer....mmmm, shame on you! ) that's the solution...you are still making Swatch rich!!! I know they are everywhere even in the oil, it is a nightmare!!

 

In any case, 9145 works well in all movements for that function low and high beat. So there you have it, now you know where your money will go!!!

 

      :D

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

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Hey bob, I think I read somewhere else on here that you can use 9010 on the pallet jewels in a pinch. I think it may have been you, which is why I'm asking, but what are your thoughts with that?

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The chart in the first post confirms this. There was a time before 9145 existed and 8000 or 9010 was the recommendation. If it was ok when the watch was new, then why not now?

I used 8000 on pallet jewels before I bought some 9145.

S

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