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Hi Bob,

 

I have been using Anchor watch oil, I think I got it from redrooster UK on eBay, though I am pretty sure I have seen it listed on US sites

 

As far as results go I guess only time will tell, seem to work OK in the short term, though I'm sure the purists will enumerate the reasons it is no good, I figure they were oiling watches long before Moebius got into the act. :D .

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Well I would definitely start with Moebius 9010 (for train wheels and balance endstones) and 9020 (for train wheels) if you are working on Pocket Watches. Moebius 9415 is a must for Pallet/Escape

I made this for anybody getting started, feel free to share.   Recommended Lubricants for Getting Started.pdf

I have to say the oil side of watch repair makes me smile. Back in November  put in an order for a 55 gallon drum of 1000 weight steam oil for my traction engine. I buy about one drum a year and

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Horological lubrication one of my favorite subjects. A subject that people become extremely opinionated at the to point of lubrication wars literally breaking out in some discussion groups which prevents open discussion. Then were looking at the problem of lubrication differently which results in different choices of lubrication.

 

Lubrication choices then and now. One of my friends learned watch repair from his grandfather. He was always laughing at the quantity of types of lubrication I have. It's because his grandfather only used three at the most. Basically the traditional American watch company's recommendation light oil, medium oil and grease. So rather than argue the point of why I have so many and he has so few I asked a different question. So the question I ask is how long did they expect an overhaul to last? So they were expecting one year life because the watches are not sealed. Basically manual wind no automatics lubrication only had to go one year.  Today they keep extending the service interval time but 4 to 5 years seems to be common. This is assuming a modern water resistant automatic watch that's reasonably tight. Then the watch companies are currently trying to figure out how to get rid of lubrication altogether and even extending their warranty recommendations for servicing beyond five years.

So what are we trying to achieve with lubrication? First were trying to reduce friction. Then hopefully preventing the parts from wearing out. Or simplistically we want I watches to run forever keep perfect time and never wear out.

Then we have an incredible quantity of unknown things even if we do what we perceive to be the correct thing to do. We have extremely limited specifications for any of our lubrication oil's. Like for instance how long do oils last in a watch? Or how long does oil last in a bottle is it okay to use that bottle off of eBay that's 50 years old? Then other unknowns cleaning, cleaning is the first step to lubrication any contaminants left behind screw up the lubrication properties. Whether the watch is sealed tight or an open type case basically environmental concerns.

So how can we tell if we've done it right?  In the old days this was easy the natural lubricants would gum up stopping or causing at the platform so poorly might as well of been stopped. So easiest way to tell if for doing it right is with a timing machine perhaps. So friction and the watch affects timing so to observe this I would recommend time of the watch in four pendant positions and dial-up and dial down. Then 24 hours later do it again. Then as we went to test out our different lubricants perhaps next 5 to 25 years of testing until the lubricants finally disintegrate. Except if we had something like an automatic watch conceivably especially with the earlier ones is a lot of metal on metal rubbing and that might disintegrate long before something shows up the timing machine. The same as the winding and setting mechanisms. So the other way is about every five years when servicing a watch note the effect of whatever you are doing for lubrication.

 

Then there those other problems like 9010 the favorite lubrication for balance pivots just not my favorite. Are you using it correctly? It’s not my favorite because it doesn’t last forever not that I’m expecting forever but if I’ve looked at my watches over a long period time 9010 is always the first to disappear. ETA has interesting tech sheets they used to have manufacturing sheets. In reference to are you using it correctly chances are probably not for 9010. From the manufacturing sheet image pasted below I’ve highlighted some things. Notice under balance staff interesting phrase of “Epilame-coated” you’ll notice it’s used several other places and one place it’s not mentioned but it is also used is on the Incabloc balance jewels. Simple answer this is surface treating to prevent the spread of oil. The layer is very thin you cannot see it if you use the wrong cleaning fluids you wash it off and even the correct cleaning fluids it eventually comes off. So surface treating as been around for a number years watch companies for unknown reasons don't always put it in their service sheets. Although on the modern service sheets they do tend to be mentioning it now just not on the older ones.

 

Horological lubrication properties somebody has done a test for us it's a shame they didn't test all of them or a bigger sampling. So the tests are basically friction the contact angle which has to do with spreading and spreading. Or simplistically we want are oiled to stay where every put it. So notice 9010 is on the list and it's spreading characteristics are not outstanding. Interesting one is Elgin M56-b which comes up on eBay from time to time and people are still using it. Is why made a reference to using a 50-year-old bottle of oil off of eBay because people are because it seems to work after 50 years. It's outstanding properties didn't go unnoticed Notice I have a couple links regarding Elgin oil it's being currently manufactured again. So modern equivalent looks quite interesting except I can only find it in big bottles which are expensive.

 

So at hobbyist level it probably really doesn't matter what you use. You accept that some things just aren't going to last as long but then you're not trying to push having a watch run every single day for the next five years. If you are doing this commercially then lubrication choices are different. It would make an interesting discussion with a customer five years from now explaining that you went with the cheapest oil possible and their watch has disintegrated because of that.

 

 

So first two links explain the evils of what happens if you don't service your watch properly and why you have to service it at regular intervals or else. Unfortunately it doesn't take into account whatever it was previously serviced with and I don't think all the answers are necessarily black-and-white..

 

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f20/how-often-service-watch-watchmakers-view-789280.html

 

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/do-watches-need-serviced-even-when-not-worn-1636874-3.html

 

Elgin oil the first is a link talking about it the second talking about why it was good enough to be reproduced today.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=JQi0BwAAQBAJ&pg=PT17&lpg=PT17&dq=elgin+56-a&source=bl&ots=TeA_kUP6yz&sig=V8CWMQiI_GBFpdBMpyYE3xXACYE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwillZaSg5bKAhUFxGMKHXDWCLcQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=elgin%2056-a&f=false

 

http://www.dr-tillwich.com/index.php/en/informationen-8/interessantes/elgin-oil

 

This link is here because I've attached an image which comes from this link.

http://mb.nawcc.org/archive/index.php/t-39391.html

post-673-0-06830600-1452149336_thumb.jpg

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What a great couple of posts John, I found these most interesting indeed. As an engineer and hobby horologist, I have always thought there is a lot BS talked about oils. Having said that, I am using the recommended oils at the moment, but have been intending to do a couple of experiments myself with different oils. I await with great interest to hear others take on the subject.

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There is one more to check - Ethsyntha, I use Ethsyntha 1-3 (replaces oils number 1 till 3, they have some more oils in the offer  of course) and Moebuis 6300 for clutches/mainsprings, but thats for pocket watches. Its reasonably priced, and you can get it in small quantities like 3ml, which is a lot for collectors cleaning their own watches. So far Im happy with it, no issues at all.

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There is one more to check - Ethsyntha, I use Ethsyntha 1-3 (replaces oils number 1 till 3, they have some more oils in the offer  of course) and Moebuis 6300 for clutches/mainsprings, but thats for pocket watches. Its reasonably priced, and you can get it in small quantities like 3ml, which is a lot for collectors cleaning their own watches. So far Im happy with it, no issues at all.

This appears to be the data sheet for Ethsyntha 1-3

 

http://www.dr-tillwich.com/Prospekte/drtillwich_engl/PDF-en/tk2213ea.pdf

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As far as I figured out Ethsyntha goes also under the Dr.Tillwich, or the other way around.

for example: http://www.comtoise-uhren-shop.de/Uhrenoele/Dr-Tillwich-Sorte-3-5-3-5-ml-295.html

A German company. I haven't had a reply from them yet.

Ethsyntha is a halve synthetic oil which has also my interest. Dr.Tillwich has also full-synthetic watch oils and those datasheets are easy to find, just select the application: http://www.dr-tillwich.com/index.php/en/produkte-3/schmierstoffe/auswahl-ueber-technische-anwendungen

Does anybody see some use for the synthetic lithium grease I ordered? A dropping point of 288 deg C (550F). I was thinking of for levers, lever-springs, winding-stem and other "stationary" parts.

Thank you for the great replies so far........it's getting very interesting!

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I have like many read many, many posts/articles/books re-lubrication & the more I have read the more I get confused.

I have experimented with many oils with clocks & have never found any difference in performance. Clocks do have the same tolerances as watches so this might be a factor & different oils might well perform better over time. 

 

For watches I have never used Epilame or Lubrifar for two reasons  a) because I am still not sure how to use them  b) I thought that was the whole idea of using the HP series of lubes by Moebius.

Maybe I am missing out but at present I just use the regular Moebuis oils/greases (D5, 9010 etc.) & I did use HP 1300/1000 on my Rolex but still wonder if it has/will make any difference. 

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A simple way to see how ageing affects oils is put a drop of each oil in a small well in a piece of tinfoil or any light coloured heat resistant material.  Leave on your bench and watch how it darkens and thickens over time.   You can also put on a hot plate or in oven at low temp (60-70C) to accelerate the process.  Animal and veg based oils will darken and thicken quicker, then mineral oils, then synthetic oils then some fancy 'chemical' oils.   Thicker oils will tend to go more 'gummy' than thin oils.   The higher the quality of the basic oil the lower the ageing effects. Oils can also have additives to reduce this effect (eg HP or EP oils).

 

For anyone interested in going deeper into the meaning of oil specs, I did post a thread last year (?) called LUBRICATION BASICS in these forums.

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A simple way to see how ageing affects oils is put a drop of each oil in a small well in a piece of tinfoil or any light coloured heat resistant material.  Leave on your bench and watch how it darkens and thickens over time.   You can also put on a hot plate or in oven at low temp (60-70C) to accelerate the process.  Animal and veg based oils will darken and thicken quicker, then mineral oils, then synthetic oils then some fancy 'chemical' oils.   Thicker oils will tend to go more 'gummy' than thin oils.   The higher the quality of the basic oil the lower the ageing effects. Oils can also have additives to reduce this effect (eg HP or EP oils).

 

For anyone interested in going deeper into the meaning of oil specs, I did post a thread last year (?) called LUBRICATION BASICS in these forums.

 

For anyone that's looked for the title LUBRICATION BASICS The reason you can't find it that's not the correct title it can be found at the link below.

 

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/638-lubricants-basics/

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I'm going to give the Dr.Tillwich Etsyntha type 1-3 oil, the type 3-5 oil and the B52 grease a go. Normally the Germans produce high quality stuff and what I received looks very professional. Each bottle in a small cardboard box, sealed in plastic and individual datasheet included.

Total cost for 3.5 ml type 1-3 oil, 20 ml type 3-5 oil, 7 gram B52 grease plus combined registered shipment from Germany to Denmark: €49.75 ≈ $ 54.

The vendor www.watchparts24.com and the direct link to the oils: http://watchparts24.de/navi.php?jtl_token=64fd5f4d65bb25cdb9b2a31833317ab3&suchausdruck=Etsyntha

They also sell Moebius oils.

Time will tell if my choice was any good...........

 

Best regards: Roland.

 

P.S.; so far no reply from any of the watch oil- / grease-producers I wrote an email to......

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Well I would definitely start with Moebius 9010 (for train wheels and balance endstones) and 9020 (for train wheels) if you are working on Pocket Watches.

Moebius 9415 is a must for Pallet/Escape wheel teeth.

A quality silicon grease.

Moebius D5 is essential (barrel arbor, motion work).

Molycote DX or Moebius 9501 grease for keyless work.

Moebius 9501 or 9504 for high friction (e.g. Cannon pinion, Setting lever spring and anything at high friction).

Moebius 8200 grease for mainspring.

 

It's a lot but at a minimum get 9010, 9415, D5 and 8200

 

I hope this helps.

Hi Mark. I am watching your video on servicing a Venus 175. Would you recommend me using HP 1300 instead of 9501? I also have kt22 that I use on the keyless works whenever I service an old (40-50s) Hamilton wristwatch.

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Anybody have a suggestion for what to use on non-jeweled pocket watch train pivots?

Hi urgur,

Although I don't really have a suggestion I can tell you this, being a pocket watch and given the different sizes of them and usually of a bigger nature (not always), the size sometimes dictates what type of oil to use. Moebius has a table for this and it is somewhere in the forum but also searchable online. I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Bob

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Anybody have a suggestion for what to use on non-jeweled pocket watch train pivots? Still 9020? Or is something heavier desirable due to metal on metal contact?

As a general rule;

Barrel: D5

Centre wheel: D5

3rd & 4th wheels: 9020

Escape wheel: 9010

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As a general rule;

Barrel: D5

Centre wheel: D5

3rd & 4th wheels: 9020

Escape wheel: 9010

Mark, could you have a look at my question a couple of posts ago? I'm looking for a substitute for 9501 when servicing a chronograph. I have HP 1300, Molykote dx and kt22.

Thanks!

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36 minutes ago, B3stia said:

Mark, could you have a look at my question a couple of posts ago? I'm looking for a substitute for 9501 when servicing a chronograph. I have HP 1300, Molykote dx and kt22.

Thanks!

9501 is a high friction grease and it is best practice to use this for at least the canon pinion and the setting lever/setting lever spring. You can substitute the expensive 9501 with Molycote DX which is very cheap to buy.

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Roger, you can also use some mixture of 9010 and something else...(I've seen this somewhere), you let evaporate and voila! Cheaper and probably a good substitute.

Cheers,

Bob

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