Jump to content

Recommended Posts

There has been lots written about the lubs for watches & many of the articles are driven mainly by their relative high cost. However when considering the amount that is actually used when servicing a watch I personally don,t think it worth the risk moving away from Moubias. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Don't take this answer to your serious question too seriously, but I read somewhere on the web about using DW10 synthetic motor oil on watches.  I have not done it, but that seemed so curious that I thought I would mention it to this learned body to generate discussion.  In the same discussion it was said that a watch oil sold on EBay under the name "Liberty" was in fact synthetic motor oil parceled off into small containers.

No flames please, I mention it here to see what others have heard about this unusual practice.

I have 5 litres in my garage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if synth motor oil 5W20 or better would compare in viscosity to 9010 or HP1300 ? And perhaps for pocket watches, barrels and 2nd gears and winding stems, perhaps............?

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make no mistake, I have never tried synthetic motor oil on a watch.  I posted about it because I thought it was so novel and curious.  I would like to hear the experience of others who have tried it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive two Accutrons running on Mobil-1 for going on 10 years now....

--No joke, they really do have Mobil-1 5W40 fully synth Motor Oil on all the pivots. Since getting back into this hobby, I plan to strip/clean them, be interesting to see what they are like! They are still working and keeping good time--but they would regardless of oil and its condition....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ive two Accutrons running on Mobil-1 for going on 10 years now....

--No joke, they really do have Mobil-1 5W40 fully synth Motor Oil on all the pivots. Since getting back into this hobby, I plan to strip/clean them, be interesting to see what they are like! They are still working and keeping good time--but they would regardless of oil and its condition....

This goes a long way in proving that a good synth oil on the barrel and the heavier more stressed parts of the movement, might work just fine. The Swiss möbius oil makers may be snake oil makers??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Alastair said:

Ive two Accutrons running on Mobil-1 for going on 10 years now....

I am curious about this. 

And what do you think of Epilame substitute? De Carle sais it is some kind of fat dissolved in something. Epilame is partially fluorinated fatty ester. Maybe we could try for example beeswax or something like that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure on epilames or know much about them, apart from their extreme cost! Are they worth it?--Who knows, Not me thats for sure.

I'm sure Moebius make and supply excellent oils, a billion watches cant be wrong! and they have the expertise and backing to make (But Do they actually make?) good oils specific for purpose--There's a Huge range they do isnt there, and All their premier oils are Lots of dosh!...

--I suspect that they buy in good base-oils, and blend to the specific requirements. Does this warrant the cost of £90,000 a Gallon! (based on 2mL at around £20 for 9010 and 4.5L/UK gallon), personally I dont think so. They are going by the fact that 2mL of 9010 will do a thousand watches, not the fact it Costs them that much to actually Make and supply! Another thing in their favour--Swatch own them and a whole load of other watch oriented Co's so thats what they recommend to use in all the literature....

Also--I doubt that Moebius have the recorses, facilities and expertise of equivalent level of say, Exxon-Mobil for instance, whose business is just Oils with no vested interest in other mechanical devices such as watches.....

As a sort of half-baked test Ive got a small ladies Seconda that is very dirty and currently doesnt run although is physically intact as far as I can see. Be interesting to see how well/poorly it will run with some Mobil-1, fully-synth 'New-Life' 0-W 40 in there. My only concern is the rather difficult looking shock-springs this tiny movement has, Ive never dealt with them so will have to see how to do those. They are a ring with three legs and a cut out in the bezel They look damned near impossible for an old duffer like me!....

The Kinematic Viscosity of this Mobil oil is 78.3 Cst at 40 deg C. The Kinematic Viscosity of Moebius 9010 is 120 Cst at 20 deg C It is well known that oils thicken on cooling but Ive no idea exactly how much the Mobil would thicken if measured at the same 20 degrees that Moebius quote for the 9010 I suspect the numbers may be similar with the Mobil being thinner due to having extreme cold-flow properties for arctic etc cold--something the Moebius issue a different oil blend for......

I

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm... Untested.....? ah--OK if you like.

Why would the motor-oil stop the watch--If it works when first done, It'll continue to work--A stoppage would Not be due to oil degradation....

Motor-oil has to put up with very much harsher conditions than found in any timepiece, much higher pressures and temperatures... It doesn't appreciably thicken or degrade at the extreme temperatures found in vehicle engines such as the ring-land area or the extreme shear etc found on turbo spindles or main/big-end bearings etc, and doesn't appreciably evaporate, (Unlike 9010 watch-oil which contains volatiles such as alcohols)  good synthetics don't carbonise either like the old mineral-base motor-oils, showing their inherent Stability.

--Why should a good synthetic motor-oil complete with its integral anti-wear package cause an issue in a fairly temperature stable environment shielded from dust and contamination--such as found inside a watch?

Only issue I think of, (Maybe a non-issue as it offers less drag)--Its somewhat Thinner/lighter in viscosity than Moebius.

The two Accutrons I did about ten years ago and with Mobil-1, 5-W40 synthetic are still running fine but as mentioned I do intend to service them in the next month or so, as by any stretch they are well overdue for service.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the oil does not stay where put. Motor oil is designed to move watch oil is designed to stay put. 

2ML of HP 1300 is approx. £14  at a guess this will lubricate approx. 50 watches.

EG 0.28p per watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm... Untested.....? ah--OK if you like.

Why would the motor-oil stop the watch--If it works when first done, It'll continue to work--A stoppage would Not be due to oil degradation....

Motor-oil has to put up with very much harsher conditions than found in any timepiece, much higher pressures and temperatures... It doesn't appreciably thicken or degrade at the extreme temperatures found in vehicle engines such as the ring-land area or the extreme shear etc found on turbo spindles or main/big-end bearings etc, and doesn't appreciably evaporate, (Unlike 9010 watch-oil which contains volatiles such as alcohols)  good synthetics don't carbonise either like the old mineral-base motor-oils, showing their inherent Stability.

--Why should a good synthetic motor-oil complete with its integral anti-wear package cause an issue in a fairly temperature stable environment shielded from dust and contamination--such as found inside a watch?

Only issue I think of, (Maybe a non-issue as it offers less drag)--Its somewhat Thinner/lighter in viscosity than Moebius.

The two Accutrons I did about ten years ago and with Mobil-1, 5-W40 synthetic are still running fine but as mentioned I do intend to service them in the next month or so, as by any stretch they are well overdue for service.

 

I agree with you fully. This is an issue of physics of a watch movement vs an auto engine and the chemical composition of moebius 9010 vs a 5w40/20 motor oil . I agree that a synth motor oil should not break down within a watch, given the contained and non-harsh environment. That said, the real difference is the respective size of the parts. So it is "all about the designed level of friction" that the watch company had specified; noting that for older pocket watches, I think that animal fat or butter would have worked. I used butter on guitar tuners in 1978 and it is still working today on that guitar.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, clockboy said:

If the oil does not stay where put. Motor oil is designed to move watch oil is designed to stay put. 

2ML of HP 1300 is approx. £14  at a guess this will lubricate approx. 50 watches.

EG 0.28p per watch

Capillary Attraction (Science 101) causes the oil to stay put--not the properties of oil itself, regardless of the blurb Swatch tell you!

IMHO--You cant design into a Fluid Medium a desire to stay where it is! A fluid will move/flow to suit its surroundings--thats why its a fluid. If it didnt--it would be Grease-which Isnt a fluid!  Does Moebius pour out the bottle?--Sure it does! Even Fish-Oils that Moebius used to supply Flow and creep, but its the Capillary Attraction that makes it stay in jewel-holes...

Using a 100x Microscope, I checked one of those 10 year Mobil Accutrons...

There's Oil Still in the jewel-holes of the four that are visible on the top bridge These are endstone type, Lets see Moebius try That for size!....

I was going to invest in fresh Moebius--Don't think I will now after seeing that oil is still there, watch working fine and after 10 Years!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/22/2016 at 7:14 PM, Alastair said:

Capillary Attraction (Science 101) causes the oil to stay put--not the properties of oil itself, regardless of the blurb Swatch tell you!

IMHO--You cant design into a Fluid Medium a desire to stay where it is! A fluid will move/flow to suit its surroundings--thats why its a fluid. If it didnt--it would be Grease-which Isnt a fluid! 

I hear what you say and the attached pseudo-science, but when it comes to practice I think everyone here agrees that Moebius with HP-1300 (interestingly called an oil-grease) does a damn good product, that stays where is placed, and it's easy to handle and apply. Then if there is a cheaper of even free alternative I can't say, I don't regrat the 14 punds I've spent on it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely!

HP-1300 or the viscous D5 is a different type of product--with a different target lubrication job! I cant think of an alternative for those heavy grade viscous oils/greases, but for the thin light oils like 9010/20 I believe that a quality Synth motor-oil say 0-W40 is a viable alternative...

I dont think it would be a good idea to use motor-oil where a D5 type or a loaded Grease was recommended, as the risk of movement would be higher in the likes of keyless-works etc......

Jewel-holes and plain-bearings/shafts etc, I think its OK.

Edited by Alastair

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Alastair said:

HP-1300 or the viscous D5 is a different type of product--with a different target lubrication job! I cant think of an alternative for those heavy grade viscous oils/greases, but for the thin light oils like 9010/20 I believe that a quality Synth motor-oil say 0-W40 is a viable alternative...

I dont think it would be a good idea to use motor-oil where a D5 type or a loaded Grease was recommended, as the risk of movement would be higher in the likes of keyless-works etc......

Jewel-holes and plain-bearings/shafts etc, I think its OK.

I'm quite familiar with both motor oils (being a motorhead) and have recently learned about fine watch oils (jewelled pivots,etc) like the 9010 and I can tell with certainty that they have totally opposite properties lubricant agents. I think that is only only with a very idle mind or in dire necessity (servicing watches in rural Africa or Myanmar)  that a rational technician could consider the remote possibility of replacing fine watch oil with motor oil, regardless if synthetic or mineral base, and its viscosity..

i guess that for some the gusto of saving 14 pounds against an evil corporation is so savorous to take over reasoning.

Edited by jdm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Alastair said:

OK--In the spirit of education--What are the opposing properties of (Thin Grade, 9010/20) watch-oil and motor-oil?

Some just off my mind:

watch oil: restricted temperature range. Motor oil - the opposite

watch oil: to forms lubrication between hars stones and metal film - watch oil - meta to metal only

motor oil: resist pressure via oil pump:- watch oil: no pumping pressure

motor oil: contain all kinds of additive like anti-foam, cleaning, detergent for combustion residue. watch oil, nothing of that is needed.

I'm sure anyone can come up with with some 30 more and then the most important: the product is designed and tested by the maker and moto (or watch) maker. Or do we want to have a laugh all together at the next watch fair, see you at the Mobil booth.

 

 

Edited by jdm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just my own observation here.  About 3 years ago when repairing some vintage long clocks I did a very small scale test of Mobil 1 vs a clock oil I have used for years because I am cheap and was looking for a alternative.  The Mobil 1 was 0w20 which our Prius's use.  Two very similar clocks cleaned and lubed, one with clock oil and the other Mobil 1.  Both are still running fine today but...and it's a big but.  In performing this test I had put a small amount of Mobil 1 in a clean bottle cap which I was using for a oil cup during the servicing.  Couple of months ago while cleaning my computer desk I found this bottle cap with what remained of the Mobil 1.  It was a noticeably thicker and sticky.  Wish I had saved it now to post a pic but I didn't.  I wouldn't have thought a fully synthetic oil like Mobil 1 would evaporate like that but it sure did. The bottle cap had remained covered with a tinfoil cap so it wasn't dust and it is possible it could have reacted with the thin plastic coating on the inside of the bottle cap but that appeared unaffected when I poked around it with a toothpick.  Like I said at the start, just an observation.  And thankful that clock oils aren't as costly as watch oils.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just my own observation here.  About 3 years ago when repairing some vintage long clocks I did a very small scale test of Mobil 1 vs a clock oil I have used for years because I am cheap and was looking for a alternative.  The Mobil 1 was 0w20 which our Prius's use.  Two very similar clocks cleaned and lubed, one with clock oil and the other Mobil 1.  Both are still running fine today but...and it's a big but.  In performing this test I had put a small amount of Mobil 1 in a clean bottle cap which I was using for a oil cup during the servicing.  Couple of months ago while cleaning my computer desk I found this bottle cap with what remained of the Mobil 1.  It was a noticeably thicker and sticky.  Wish I had saved it now to post a pic but I didn't.  I wouldn't have thought a fully synthetic oil like Mobil 1 would evaporate like that but it sure did. The bottle cap had remained covered with a tinfoil cap so it wasn't dust and it is possible it could have reacted with the thin plastic coating on the inside of the bottle cap but that appeared unaffected when I poked around it with a toothpick.  Like I said at the start, just an observation.  And thankful that clock oils aren't as costly as watch oils.  

I suspect that on a watch Mobil 1 would be a disaster

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of our members has a chart of his experiments with motor oil and posted it so I suppose you guys can check it out...I tried to find it (pdf) but didn't have much time. I'm sure it will give some information about the subject. Also, oils and lubrication is an argument waiting to happen as Clockboy said, so no matter what the result as per experimentation and/or chart consultation, I'm sure we will always be reluctant to change our ways, specially when they gives us good result and peace of mind. Therefore, Moebious will always have the upper hand and Mobil will never make it to the watch industry...unless they are willing to spend lots of money to win the - for them -- "meager" new market (no comparison in volume sales cars vs watches).

Just my two cents. Also, I will try and use always the recommended oils until I know better but that's simply affirming the above.

Cheers,

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dr Tillwich Oils.

An alternative source from Germany for specialised (watch) lubes which are cheaper than M etc.   They have some really decent oils and greases. Home site data sheets and source on e**y links below.  I spent many years in lube industry so can help interpret tech data if needed.

http://www.dr-tillwich.com/index.php/en/produkte-3/schmierstoffe/datenblaetter

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/uhrmacherwerkzeuge/Uhrenole-Dr-Tillwich-/_i.html?_fsub=9879334017&_sid=111822197&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...