Lubricants

[12toneman]

Excellent! Both of these are great. Many thanks!

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If you look at the chart it looks like Novostar B Is just about the universal oil for everything in the watch?

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Yeah- what's up with that? 

[JohnR725]

  On 5/30/2016 at 1:13 PM, 12toneman said:

Excellent! Both of these are great. Many thanks!

Yeah- what's up with that? 

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Before we get into the mysteries of Novostar A reminder of how do we know that we doing lubrication properly? For this we need a timing machine ideally the before and after of servicing after should look better. Specifically the best test is to look at amplitude basically inefficiency test. If we have the right tech sheets it will actually tell us what were supposed to have. Then ideally whatever we see should last for several years depending upon whether the watch is sealed up like a automatic watch or more open to the elements were things will change like a pocket watch.

I like one of the biggest problems we have with all horological lubrication is the lack of proper technical specifications. Then for companies like Novostar We get confusing technical specifications. So I was looking for a site that would have specifications for their lubrication most sites are very limited the link below is better but still not perfect.

http://www.beco-technic.com/novostar-oel-6-ml-17313.html

So this is there type "B" lubrication if you look at the picture the bottle you'll notice the word bracelets Which I must make the wild assumption means tiny. So tiny watch look at the description and you see a reference to clocks and its viscosity. Usually for viscosity the heavier the larger the pivots size so this is a relatively light oil yet it's recommended for barrels and clocks?

http://www.beco-technic.com/novostar-oel-10-ml-17314.html#

So for the next one this is the type M on the bottled says pocket and on the chart seems to be less popular. Slightly Hanoverian viscosity and noticed on both of them the total lack of synthetic natural artificial we see the lacking a few specifications.

http://www.beco-technic.com/novostar-oel-20-ml-17315.html#

Now the type R bottle labeled Alarm clock and in fine print pendulum clock obviously this should be the heaviest oil if we believe what the Bible says. Notice how the descriptions all start to look the same? Although from the viscosity this is the heaviest of all three and compared to Moebius lubricants very very light oils.

The most common specification we can find for lubrication's is viscosity which unfortunately really isn't enough but it's mainly all we get. Attached is an image of various lubrication viscosities. So the amusing aspect the viscosity is looking at the chart it doesn't seem like it's really important to use a light oil and a fast-moving situation and a heavy oil and a slow moving situation which is what is recommended. For instance look at Nye 140c Incredibly fluid oil and it is recommended for watches. It even has tech sheet somewhat confusing but it exists

http://lam.free.fr/tmp/nye_watch_oil_140c.pdf

The notice on the chart that the Nye 140B even more fluid is there clock oil. I've seen a bottle of this it looks like water so not a lot of answers just a lot of confusing things. There are other things that come into play with how fluid the oil is is also the contact angle or how fast as it spread on various materials. Usually for lighter lubricants Moebius  Recommends surface treatment normally skipped over by hobbyists due to cost but widely used in industry to keep lubrication where it's supposed to be. Unfortunately for us if we're using a lubricant that should be surface treated beforehand were doing the wrong thing.

So for the mystery of Novostar and nye I have zero idea. Other than I find horological lubrication an amusing subject.

[sstakoff]

Anyone have a recommended lubricant for the cannon pinion on a Heuer/Breitling/Buren calibre 11 or 12 ??? The spec says Cuypers #3 - don't think that's around anymore!

 

[Geo]

I would use a spot of Moebius D5 or HP1300.

[sstakoff]

  On 6/23/2016 at 6:38 AM, Geo said:

I would use a spot of Moebius D5 or HP1300.

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Sounds good. Not sure what the properties of Cuypers 3 were.... I believe the Cal 11/12 guide only refer to 3 lubricants - 9010, HP1300 and Cuypers 3.

[sstakoff]

In the ETA 7750 guide, they refer to HP-1300 as well as HP-1300 SC. I have never heard of "SC" and cannot find anything describing what exactly that is. Does anyone know??

[jdm]

  On 6/23/2016 at 11:30 AM, sstakoff said:

In the ETA 7750 guide, they refer to HP-1300 as well as HP-1300 SC. I have never heard of "SC" and cannot find anything describing what exactly that is. Does anyone know?

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I don't think it exists. Another example of sloppiness in redacting tech sheets.

[Bill3]

Don't take this answer to your serious question too seriously, but I read somewhere on the web about using DW10 synthetic motor oil on watches.  I have not done it, but that seemed so curious that I thought I would mention it to this learned body to generate discussion.  In the same discussion it was said that a watch oil sold on EBay under the name "Liberty" was in fact synthetic motor oil parceled off into small containers.

No flames please, I mention it here to see what others have heard about this unusual practice.

[clockboy]

There has been lots written about the lubs for watches & many of the articles are driven mainly by their relative high cost. However when considering the amount that is actually used when servicing a watch I personally don,t think it worth the risk moving away from Moubias. 

[jdrichard]

  On 7/1/2016 at 11:52 PM, Bill3 said:

Don't take this answer to your serious question too seriously, but I read somewhere on the web about using DW10 synthetic motor oil on watches.  I have not done it, but that seemed so curious that I thought I would mention it to this learned body to generate discussion.  In the same discussion it was said that a watch oil sold on EBay under the name "Liberty" was in fact synthetic motor oil parceled off into small containers.

No flames please, I mention it here to see what others have heard about this unusual practice.

I have 5 litres in my garage.

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[jdrichard]

I wonder if synth motor oil 5W20 or better would compare in viscosity to 9010 or HP1300 ? And perhaps for pocket watches, barrels and 2nd gears and winding stems, perhaps............?

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[Bill3]

Make no mistake, I have never tried synthetic motor oil on a watch.  I posted about it because I thought it was so novel and curious.  I would like to hear the experience of others who have tried it.

[Alastair]

Ive two Accutrons running on Mobil-1 for going on 10 years now....

--No joke, they really do have Mobil-1 5W40 fully synth Motor Oil on all the pivots. Since getting back into this hobby, I plan to strip/clean them, be interesting to see what they are like! They are still working and keeping good time--but they would regardless of oil and its condition....

[jdrichard]

  On 7/17/2016 at 9:45 PM, Alastair said:

Ive two Accutrons running on Mobil-1 for going on 10 years now....

--No joke, they really do have Mobil-1 5W40 fully synth Motor Oil on all the pivots. Since getting back into this hobby, I plan to strip/clean them, be interesting to see what they are like! They are still working and keeping good time--but they would regardless of oil and its condition....

This goes a long way in proving that a good synth oil on the barrel and the heavier more stressed parts of the movement, might work just fine. The Swiss möbius oil makers may be snake oil makers??

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[szbalogh]

  On 7/17/2016 at 9:45 PM, Alastair said:

Ive two Accutrons running on Mobil-1 for going on 10 years now....

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I am curious about this. 

And what do you think of Epilame substitute? De Carle sais it is some kind of fat dissolved in something. Epilame is partially fluorinated fatty ester. Maybe we could try for example beeswax or something like that. 

[Alastair]

Not sure on epilames or know much about them, apart from their extreme cost! Are they worth it?--Who knows, Not me thats for sure.

I'm sure Moebius make and supply excellent oils, a billion watches cant be wrong! and they have the expertise and backing to make (But Do they actually make?) good oils specific for purpose--There's a Huge range they do isnt there, and All their premier oils are Lots of dosh!...

--I suspect that they buy in good base-oils, and blend to the specific requirements. Does this warrant the cost of £90,000 a Gallon! (based on 2mL at around £20 for 9010 and 4.5L/UK gallon), personally I dont think so. They are going by the fact that 2mL of 9010 will do a thousand watches, not the fact it Costs them that much to actually Make and supply! Another thing in their favour--Swatch own them and a whole load of other watch oriented Co's so thats what they recommend to use in all the literature....

Also--I doubt that Moebius have the recorses, facilities and expertise of equivalent level of say, Exxon-Mobil for instance, whose business is just Oils with no vested interest in other mechanical devices such as watches.....

As a sort of half-baked test Ive got a small ladies Seconda that is very dirty and currently doesnt run although is physically intact as far as I can see. Be interesting to see how well/poorly it will run with some Mobil-1, fully-synth 'New-Life' 0-W 40 in there. My only concern is the rather difficult looking shock-springs this tiny movement has, Ive never dealt with them so will have to see how to do those. They are a ring with three legs and a cut out in the bezel They look damned near impossible for an old duffer like me!....

The Kinematic Viscosity of this Mobil oil is 78.3 Cst at 40 deg C. The Kinematic Viscosity of Moebius 9010 is 120 Cst at 20 deg C It is well known that oils thicken on cooling but Ive no idea exactly how much the Mobil would thicken if measured at the same 20 degrees that Moebius quote for the 9010 I suspect the numbers may be similar with the Mobil being thinner due to having extreme cold-flow properties for arctic etc cold--something the Moebius issue a different oil blend for......

I

 

[jdrichard]

You need to go for it and save the rest of us a fortune in oil cost of the 0w40 works well. I'm sure some of that eBay oil is just that...with printed labels.

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[clockboy]

In my humble opinion lubing with un- tested oils is madness.

Scenario service a watch & after 6 months it stops. Is it a build issue or is it the oil stopping to perform???

[Alastair]

Hmm... Untested.....? ah--OK if you like.

Why would the motor-oil stop the watch--If it works when first done, It'll continue to work--A stoppage would Not be due to oil degradation....

Motor-oil has to put up with very much harsher conditions than found in any timepiece, much higher pressures and temperatures... It doesn't appreciably thicken or degrade at the extreme temperatures found in vehicle engines such as the ring-land area or the extreme shear etc found on turbo spindles or main/big-end bearings etc, and doesn't appreciably evaporate, (Unlike 9010 watch-oil which contains volatiles such as alcohols)  good synthetics don't carbonise either like the old mineral-base motor-oils, showing their inherent Stability.

--Why should a good synthetic motor-oil complete with its integral anti-wear package cause an issue in a fairly temperature stable environment shielded from dust and contamination--such as found inside a watch?

Only issue I think of, (Maybe a non-issue as it offers less drag)--Its somewhat Thinner/lighter in viscosity than Moebius.

The two Accutrons I did about ten years ago and with Mobil-1, 5-W40 synthetic are still running fine but as mentioned I do intend to service them in the next month or so, as by any stretch they are well overdue for service.

 

[clockboy]

If the oil does not stay where put. Motor oil is designed to move watch oil is designed to stay put. 

2ML of HP 1300 is approx. £14  at a guess this will lubricate approx. 50 watches.

EG 0.28p per watch

[jdrichard]

  On 7/21/2016 at 5:03 PM, Alastair said:

Hmm... Untested.....? ah--OK if you like.

Why would the motor-oil stop the watch--If it works when first done, It'll continue to work--A stoppage would Not be due to oil degradation....

Motor-oil has to put up with very much harsher conditions than found in any timepiece, much higher pressures and temperatures... It doesn't appreciably thicken or degrade at the extreme temperatures found in vehicle engines such as the ring-land area or the extreme shear etc found on turbo spindles or main/big-end bearings etc, and doesn't appreciably evaporate, (Unlike 9010 watch-oil which contains volatiles such as alcohols)  good synthetics don't carbonise either like the old mineral-base motor-oils, showing their inherent Stability.

--Why should a good synthetic motor-oil complete with its integral anti-wear package cause an issue in a fairly temperature stable environment shielded from dust and contamination--such as found inside a watch?

Only issue I think of, (Maybe a non-issue as it offers less drag)--Its somewhat Thinner/lighter in viscosity than Moebius.

The two Accutrons I did about ten years ago and with Mobil-1, 5-W40 synthetic are still running fine but as mentioned I do intend to service them in the next month or so, as by any stretch they are well overdue for service.

 

I agree with you fully. This is an issue of physics of a watch movement vs an auto engine and the chemical composition of moebius 9010 vs a 5w40/20 motor oil . I agree that a synth motor oil should not break down within a watch, given the contained and non-harsh environment. That said, the real difference is the respective size of the parts. So it is "all about the designed level of friction" that the watch company had specified; noting that for older pocket watches, I think that animal fat or butter would have worked. I used butter on guitar tuners in 1978 and it is still working today on that guitar.

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[Alastair]

  On 7/22/2016 at 1:42 PM, clockboy said:

If the oil does not stay where put. Motor oil is designed to move watch oil is designed to stay put. 

2ML of HP 1300 is approx. £14  at a guess this will lubricate approx. 50 watches.

EG 0.28p per watch

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Capillary Attraction (Science 101) causes the oil to stay put--not the properties of oil itself, regardless of the blurb Swatch tell you!

IMHO--You cant design into a Fluid Medium a desire to stay where it is! A fluid will move/flow to suit its surroundings--thats why its a fluid. If it didnt--it would be Grease-which Isnt a fluid!  Does Moebius pour out the bottle?--Sure it does! Even Fish-Oils that Moebius used to supply Flow and creep, but its the Capillary Attraction that makes it stay in jewel-holes...

Using a 100x Microscope, I checked one of those 10 year Mobil Accutrons...

There's Oil Still in the jewel-holes of the four that are visible on the top bridge These are endstone type, Lets see Moebius try That for size!....

I was going to invest in fresh Moebius--Don't think I will now after seeing that oil is still there, watch working fine and after 10 Years!

[jdm]

  On 7/22/2016 at 5:14 PM, Alastair said:

Capillary Attraction (Science 101) causes the oil to stay put--not the properties of oil itself, regardless of the blurb Swatch tell you!

IMHO--You cant design into a Fluid Medium a desire to stay where it is! A fluid will move/flow to suit its surroundings--thats why its a fluid. If it didnt--it would be Grease-which Isnt a fluid! 

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I hear what you say and the attached pseudo-science, but when it comes to practice I think everyone here agrees that Moebius with HP-1300 (interestingly called an oil-grease) does a damn good product, that stays where is placed, and it's easy to handle and apply. Then if there is a cheaper of even free alternative I can't say, I don't regrat the 14 punds I've spent on it. 

[Alastair]

Absolutely!

HP-1300 or the viscous D5 is a different type of product--with a different target lubrication job! I cant think of an alternative for those heavy grade viscous oils/greases, but for the thin light oils like 9010/20 I believe that a quality Synth motor-oil say 0-W40 is a viable alternative...

I dont think it would be a good idea to use motor-oil where a D5 type or a loaded Grease was recommended, as the risk of movement would be higher in the likes of keyless-works etc......

Jewel-holes and plain-bearings/shafts etc, I think its OK.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Alastair

[jdm]

  On 7/28/2016 at 8:34 PM, Alastair said:

HP-1300 or the viscous D5 is a different type of product--with a different target lubrication job! I cant think of an alternative for those heavy grade viscous oils/greases, but for the thin light oils like 9010/20 I believe that a quality Synth motor-oil say 0-W40 is a viable alternative...

I dont think it would be a good idea to use motor-oil where a D5 type or a loaded Grease was recommended, as the risk of movement would be higher in the likes of keyless-works etc......

Jewel-holes and plain-bearings/shafts etc, I think its OK.

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I'm quite familiar with both motor oils (being a motorhead) and have recently learned about fine watch oils (jewelled pivots,etc) like the 9010 and I can tell with certainty that they have totally opposite properties lubricant agents. I think that is only only with a very idle mind or in dire necessity (servicing watches in rural Africa or Myanmar)  that a rational technician could consider the remote possibility of replacing fine watch oil with motor oil, regardless if synthetic or mineral base, and its viscosity..

i guess that for some the gusto of saving 14 pounds against an evil corporation is so savorous to take over reasoning.

Edited July 28, 2016 by jdm