Cleaning and oiling balance and jewels

[JohnR725]

Then back to cleaning pivots and for that matter the entire watch. Maybe another solution would be purchasing proper solutions designed specifically for this. So rather than looking at the usual sources for these things I looked at Amazon and eBay. I'm giving the Amazon links of a couple below there is probably more I just didn't go looking for them. I noticed eBay had at least one of these listed below. Then fourth link PDF description of these.

So you will note with the cleaning product you need a associated rinse product. Then minor caution when you're using professional fluids that clean extremely well be careful not to leave your watch in there all day or you'll find it goes beyond cleaning and starts to etch. You can usually recognize this the solution will turn blue that's the copper that used to be in your watch plate now in solution. Worse case was a watchmaker told the story of going on vacation forgot to take the watch out the cleaner and now needed a new movement. Then unfortunately depending upon the temperature the fluid a variety of unknown conditions I wouldn't go over 10 minutes with any of the cleaning solutions I typically aim for five minutes. The rinse itself shouldn't be an issue but just to avoid any unpleasant surprises probably best not To leave your watch in any fluids for any length of time.

https://www.amazon.com/Ultrasonic-Ammoniated-Watch-Cleaning-Solution/dp/B06X9CC2RM

https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Rinsing-Solution-Chlorinated-Solvents/dp/B06WWH9Q3Z

https://www.amazon.com/Ultrasonic-Non-Ammoniated-Watch-Cleaning-Solution/dp/B01LQYMRRC

http://www.lrultrasonics.com/pdf/Jwlry.WatchSolutionsGuide.pdf

 

[Klassiker]

Hello JohnR725,

Thank you for putting so much time and effort into your replies. All the information I was asking for is there, and then some!

I'm going to be much more brief this time.

Quote: minor nitpicky complaints - minor; OK if you see it that way. I'd prefer to say detailed. Likewise nitpicky. Complaints: no, I definitely wasn't complaining, just asking for clarification, which you very generously provided. Thanks again.

I have the 2nd edition of Fried's Watch Repairer's Manual, and my quote was taken from page 153 of that book, in the section Polishing a Dirty or Tarnished Pivot, in Part III: How to Polish a Balance Staff Pivot of Chapter IX ADJUSTING A BALANCE STAFF.

[Lc130]

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Helpful to have the background history? What was the watch doing before you service the watch?  Then timing machine results dial up, dial down and at least one crown position crown down would be fine more would be better. Not just numeric results we need the graphical display. Then the following a proper timing machine protocol is to wind the watch fully up let it run for 15 to 30 minutes typically. Time for 30 seconds in each position and allow 30 seconds in between shifting positions to settle down. A lot of this will depend on the type of watch some will settle down faster than others.

 

Thank you!  I'm away at the moment and plan to get back into this watch later next week.

 

Charlie

[JohnR725]

19 hours ago, Klassiker said:

Polishing a Dirty or Tarnished Pivo

Thank you it makes it much easier to find the reference if you know where it actually is in the book versus the page number. Especially when you have multiple editions of the book and things tend to shift around a little bit. Then anyone who has the third edition it's page 156

So I see is that Henry does actually use the term dirty. Then from the link above " Crusty pivots, like crusty jewels, need a thorough scrubbing ". I guess maybe I'm being overly nitpicky tarnished in my mind is not the same as crusty and scrubbing is not the same as polishing.

[jdrichard]

I should've extracted out each section of your reply like this it might make it easier to read. Polishing in general does not change the shape I have no objection to the method only polishing usually doesn't remove crusty stuff and is a final step not the only step.
Then the reference to the Balloon chock and heavy burnishing? That is in reference to the video in the video the burnishing tool appears to be a clock pivot burnishing tool. A clock burnishing tool is in general way too aggressive on a watch pivot.
 

If this is my video you are referring to, I use watch and pocket watch balance staff burnishing tool. One half is a file and the other is scored metal, rounded on one side to follow the cone like couture of the pivot.


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[luiazazrambo]

Hi *,

I am practicing on scrap movements after failing on a couple of projects. Every time i brake off a screwhead (this is how my Christmas present to my Mrs ended up too) at the end of the cleaning process during re-assembly i just sink into the carpet next to my lost movement parts and it takes me a while to appear again. So now I have this movement on the picture and I am confused as always. First of all if it says AS 1228 should i not be able to find this movement on ranfft for example, or on any other site, i seem to fail to find it? And secondly I cleaned and oiled everything apart from the balance jewel, because the plate which holds it in place screwed from the hairspring side. How do you clean and oil this jewel? Do you have to remove the hairspring? (When I type hairspring down I am jumping into the air, i have nightmares about hairsprings.) I would normally google it or read about it ,but i don't even know how to phrase my search text.

best regards,

lui

[Jon]

This is a fiddly job if you have never done this before, so it might be an idea to practice on a scrap movement.

The cap jewel is a non shockproof type and will need to be unscrewed from underneath the balance cock. You can see the end of those screws in the picture you posted. First you will need to take off the balance cock from the movement and carefully turn it upside down, making sure the balance staff pivot is sitting safely in the jewel hole, Then turn the 'boot' which I have marked with a red arrow 90 degrees, so the hairspring can be released from between the boot and the curb pin. Do this with a very fine screwdriver, as there is an indentation in the boot to do this.

The friction fit stud that the end of the hairspring is pinned to with a tiny brass tapered pin. I have marked this with a red circle. This stud is held in place by friction, by the looks of your picture, rather than a small screw coming out from that arm and will release with downward pressure on the top of the stud in the picture. The arm that the stud fits into will need to be supported in some way to do this, usually using a staking set to do this if it is a really tight fit. I use an adapted tool that pushes the stud and holds the underside of the arm at the same time.

Once the stud is free and the boot moved 90 degrees the hairspring and balance wheel are free. You can then undo both the screws on the underside of the balance cock to remove the cap jewel to be able to clean and oil it

 

[luiazazrambo]

I was worried that you would write something like this. In this case I go home and will have a go with it. This time i am going to try to spend less than 5 hours to try to bring the hairspring back to its original shape after I twist it and bend it accidentally before i put it into the bin.  Thank you for your time. I am going to take pictures as I go and upload here. 

[Tmuir]

What Jon has said is the best option and the only way to clean it correctly.

If its not too gummed up with dirt there is a less scary way to atleast oil it which is better than nothing whilst you are still learning.

Place the balance upside down and carefully lift the balance slightly, not too much or you will damage the hairspring.

Now with your finest oiler place a drop of oil directly on the pivot hole without putting oil on the hairspring else you will need to clean it all again and start again.

Next using a very fine wire, or a tool like this

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/oilers-3-in-1-incabloc-specialist

Poke the fine wire into the pivot hole so it touches the end stone. Capillary action will draw the oil into the pivot hole oiling the pivot.

This is not the preferred way to do it as you haven't cleaned out the old oil, but consider it a stepping stone until you feel confident doing what Jon said above which is the best way to do it.

[AndyHull]

The movement seems to be similar to the EB 687/AS 698 -> http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&EB_698

There seem to be several variants of this movement all with caliber numbers that don't show upon either ranfft or 17jewels.info

For example this AS 867 "Beaver" ->

 

 

Take care with the balance, as I have been unable to find a replacement balance staff for mine.

[luiazazrambo]

1 hour ago, Tmuir said:

Place the balance upside down and carefully lift the balance slightly, not too much or you will damage the hairspring.

Now with your finest oiler place a drop of oil directly on the pivot hole without putting oil on the hairspring else you will need to clean it all again and start again.

Thank you for this, this is what I have done, but unfortunately I think i also oiled the hairspring a little bit. So yes I have to start it over again, however I want to do a proper cleanup for two reasons. First of all i am doing this for my pleasure and I want to learn, secondly the movement stops ticking immediately once the balance staff sits on the jewel if i flip it over its running smoothly.

[luiazazrambo]

1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

The movement seems to be similar to the EB 687/AS 698 -> http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&EB_698

Hi Andy, 

well done! Again!

Found this:

http://www.kanikune.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=115

Best regards,

Lui

[luiazazrambo]

And John Senior is selling balance staff for your/my movement however you cannot call your Beaver 404 anymore if you buy a balance staff which is more expensive than the watch itself:

http://www.obsoletewatchandclockparts.com/723-balance-staff-all-types.htm

I can see there are variants for the AS867 but you can ask John for details if in doubt.

 

[luiazazrambo]

Hi *,

I managed to oil the cap jewel as instructed. I removed the hairspring from the stud instead of the stud from the arm. Is that a bad practice? The movement does not really run though, well it runs only in face down position as the pivots of the balance staff has a T shaped head and one of them even seem to be a little bit bent. I would need to try to polish the pivots what I have never done before, not even sure if it makes sense with the balance staff or to replace the balance staff. I am still happy though. I managed to clean this movement, then put it back together, oiled it etc, no broken screws, twisted hairspring, broken pivots, lost parts..  And most likely I found the fault in this movement. Ahh I even made a new hook for the mainspring as it was broken.

Best regards,

Lui

[anilv]

T-shaped at the tip of the staff? That would be the end of the staff 'mushrooming' due to impact. I would expect damage to the jewel as well. Sometimes the staff needs to be changed. Polishing may remove the 'T'd portion but I would imagine the staff would be effectively shorter as what happens is material is moved outwards/sideways.

Go ahead an try polishing.. you've got nothing to loose.

Anilv

 

[AndyHull]

12 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

And John Senior is selling balance staff for your/my movement however you cannot call your Beaver 404 anymore if you buy a balance staff which is more expensive than the watch itself:

http://www.obsoletewatchandclockparts.com/723-balance-staff-all-types.htm

I can see there are variants for the AS867 but you can ask John for details if in doubt.

 

Thanks for the useful links, I might bend the 404 rules slightly, since the 404 only applied to the initial purchase price, and doesn't include P+P (which can be more than the cost of the watch in some cases).   

After all, the time I put in to repairing them is worth more than £4.04 , but I do try to keep things as economical as I practically can, since very few of these interesting 404 time pieces are ever likely to be  worth a fortune.

I'm off on my travels at the moment (back in India), but I'll probably order a balance staff for it  when I get back.

[luiazazrambo]

8 hours ago, anilv said:

T-shaped at the tip of the staff? That would be the end of the staff 'mushrooming' due to impact. I would expect damage to the jewel as well. Sometimes the staff needs to be changed. Polishing may remove the 'T'd portion but I would imagine the staff would be effectively shorter as what happens is material is moved outwards/sideways.

Go ahead an try polishing.. you've got nothing to loose.

Anilv

 

Hi Anilv,

Thanks for the comment. I wanted to write 'mushrooming' but decided not to use it as I was not sure if this is the correct word to describe this. I only have a cap jewel which is ok, for the pivots i have a drilled pivot hole in the plate and the balance cock. Is the jackot tool (dont have one) used for such an operation?

Best regards,

Lui

[SparkyLB]

I followed Mark's disassembly/reassembly to the letter.  I think all went well.  Before I can put it back on the Timographer 1000, I have to clean and reinstall both incabloc assemblies.   

I'm doing the best I can, but I would be appreciative for any advice on how to achieve this.

Reassembly I can handle.  It's cleaning and lubricating that I'm a bit foggy on.  I know the end stone must be spotless, oiled to about 33% in the center with 9010 on the flat side; and the upside-down chaton placed on top, then observe the bubble. 

My problem is how do you all accomplish the cleaning of these tiny items?  I don't feel I can hold the stone down with tweezers with one hand, and apply the micro-drop with the other.  I KNOW that holding the end stone by the sides is not possible for me, as I feel I would ping it.   

I'm considering naptha in a petri dish, holding down the end stone with my tweezers and wiping with a paintbrush (nylon, fine tip reserved for cleaning parts) while submerged, and same with the chaton, then placing on tissue paper and using a blower CAREFULLY to dry.  Does this sound reasonable?

I have not lost a part, and would be crushed if the two assemblies would prevent me from finishing. 

I'm guessing it's done in a variety of ways by different people.  I'm very interested in your method.  I realize it's a bit lengthy to write, but any tips would be immensely helpful to me. 

 

If the forum would be so kind, what's your method?

 

[rodabod]

If the machine doesn't clean them sufficiently after I've given them a rub with pegwood dipped in naphtha, then I submerge them in naphtha for a minute and then rub again, before a wipe across clean tissue paper.

To oil, hold the sides of the cap jewels with tweezers but don't squeeze hard at all. If they ping then you may have "beaking" tweezer tips. Your oiler hand can rest on the bench top while applying which will keep it still. Do it inside a large clear plastic bag if you are paranoid of losing anything.

[Nucejoe]

Spread a white sheet of paper or thin cardboard on a flat surface, drop the end stone on it  flat side down facing the paper, put you index finger on end stone, pour a bit of naphta or lighter fluid over the paper, scrub the end stone over it as much as you like, end stone will clean incredibly. Under magnification you will inevitably see paper debrie around the permeter of the end stone, drop it in a small jar add ligher fluid, shake, save the extra fluid. 

I fish out the end stone out of the jar by my finger. No need whatsoever to blow dry since it is a stone, 

put a bit of Rodico on tip of a screw driver, another safe place for the end stone to stay put, oil , drop in chaton.

Holding end stone in your tweezers is an unneccessary skill.

Good luck.

 

 

[SparkyLB]

Thank you, rodabod.  I've not heard the term "beaking," but I'm guessing it's akin to the tips forming more of a "C" shape than both flat and parallel?

 

I am grateful for the tip.  I will try this.  Thank you. 

[SparkyLB]

Thank you, Nucejoe.  Do you use the rodico on the screwdriver to hold the stone down so it doesn't rise when removing the oiler?

Check that, I think I understand.  You "stick" to the convex side, oil the flat side while stuck to the screwdriver, then flip into chaton and hold the jewel down while removing the rodico-loaded screwdriver.  Yes?

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by SparkyLB
revelation?

[rodabod]

35 minutes ago, SparkyLB said:

Thank you, rodabod.  I've not heard the term "beaking," but I'm guessing it's akin to the tips forming more of a "C" shape than both flat and parallel?

Yes, what happens is that the tips start to flare outwards when squeezed hard together. It's much easier if tweezers keep their tips parallel and aligned.

One other thing regarding cap jewels, and jewels in general is cleanliness. You do not want any trace of oil or anything else that the oil droplet may use to help it spread. It's one of the reasons why some people argue that water-based cleaning is superior as oil-based cleaners inevitably leave some residue (though I would argue it doesn't seem to be a problem in practice when using fresh fluids).

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, SparkyLB said:

Thank you, Nucejoe.  Do you use the rodico on the screwdriver to hold the stone down so it doesn't rise when removing the oiler?

Check that, I think I understand.  You "stick" to the convex side, oil the flat side while stuck to the screwdriver, then flip into chaton and hold the jewel down while removing the rodico-loaded screwdriver.  Yes?

 

Yes, you got my meaning  right on both accounts, stick the convex side to rodico so the end stone stays put even when you flip over to lower the end stone onto the chaton, and end stone doesn't rise when you remove the oiler.

You said it better than I, you sound like you have done this before. 

Making a tent of plastic sheet or cover over the work or inside plastic bag, saves us a lot of searching on knees. Good to make a habbit of.

Good luck.

[SparkyLB]

23 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes, you got my meaning  right on both accounts, stick the convex side to rodico so the end stone stays put even when you flip over to lower the end stone onto the chaton, and end stone doesn't rise when you remove the oiler.

You said it better than I, you sound like you have done this before. 

Making a tent of plastic sheet or cover over the work or inside plastic bag, saves us a lot of searching on knees. Good to make a habbit of.

Good luck.

Thanks for the tip.  No, I haven't tried that.  I'm fairly new to this, and this is the first time I've disassembled an Incabloc.  It's going to take some practice getting it back together.  I'm not discouraged by repeated failures, I'm building muscle memory.  Thankfully I've not lost any parts on this one task, at least.  I got as far as oiling the stone, but the drop was large enough to cover the whole stone.  It looked like a Jiffypop!  I wonder if you remember those, perhaps I'm just showing my age.  I put it away, under the cover, and will wait until tomorrow. 

 

I appreciate you guys.