Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.

[DouglasSkinner]

I have been taught that one should not lubricate the pallet arbor jewels.  I have a watch in which the pallet arbor jewels have endstones.  In that case should I lubricate the endstones the way one should, say, the balance staff endstones?  Or should I not?  Thanks!

[jdm]

No, the recommendation is not to lubricated pallet pivots period. If you have time you can observe yourself what's the difference in amplitude between having dry or oiled pallet pivots. 

[oldhippy]

Never oil the pallet pivots. If you do it causes drag, if you watch the action of the pallets they only move from side to side. A very tiny drop on the faces of the pallet stones is all that is needed. Some repairers prefer to just oil a few of the escape wheel teeth and by the rotation of the wheel; this will automatically oil the pallet stone faces. You must always use oil that is recommended for watch escapements.    

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Never oil the pallet pivots. If you do it causes drag, if you watch the action of the pallets they only move from side to side. A very tiny drop on the faces of the pallet stones is all that is needed. Some repairers prefer to just oil a few of the escape wheel teeth and by the rotation of the wheel; this will automatically oil the pallet stone faces. You must always use oil that is recommended for watch escapements.    

How about oiling just the pivot-endstone interface? 

Isn,t this D skinner's question?

 

[oldhippy]

How about oiling just the pivot-endstone interface? 

I think that comes under pallet pivots. Which I mentioned. Oil on the inside of a endstone will seep down to the pivot. Gravity plays a big part it is bound to run down. 

[DouglasSkinner]

Thanks, guys!  I don't oil the pallet pivots but having endstones threw me.  I'm not going to oil them (or the hole jewels either).

[Nucejoe]

32 minutes ago, DouglasSkinner said:

Thanks, guys!  I don't oil the pallet pivots but having endstones threw me.  I'm not going to oil them (or the hole jewels either).

Thanks to you I learned,  have never face endstones on fork arbor, didn,t know. 

Best wishes

[DavidMasters]

As OldHippy stated above I have learned(self taught) to use a tiny amount of oil on a couple escape wheel teeth and nothing more.

[nickelsilver]

Thanks, guys!  I don't oil the pallet pivots but having endstones threw me.  I'm not going to oil them (or the hole jewels either).

Just remember the endstones are to reduce friction. In pivots without them the shoulders rub the face of the jewel, and even if the shoulder surface is reduced to the max the surface is still way more than a rounded pivot end. Better quality pieces will have convex jewels to reduce the surface touching, best quality goes all the way to end stones.

They are rarely encountered on forks though so can understand the confusion.

[PeterS]

I’ve been following Mark’s course and he tells us that the oil should cover 30% of the end stone – that’s what I have been doing.
I have a book by Mark W. Wiles who states that the oil should be 50%-70%

What do you think?

[rduckwor]

I have no great wealth of experience, but I shoot for 50-70%.

RMD

[nickelsilver]

His description isn't really clear. The oiled area should be around 60% of the surface when the jewels are assembled together.

With most Incablocs you'll need to oil the cap, then set the chaton on top. It's hard to predict what the end result will be without just doing it a bunch of times and getting a feel for what the initial oil spot will become once in contact with the hole jewel. There's no practical way of adding oil once assembled as the chimney is in the way (A Bergeon 1A auto oiler can do it*). No way to remove excess of course.

With Kif or old non-shock settings, assemble the jewels, oil the sink in the hole jewel, then insert a fine pin to carry the oil through to the cap. These are more forgiving as you can start small and add until it looks right.

*There's a risk with the auto oiler that some oil may touch the chimney and could possibly lead to oil wicking out of the jewel. It's also hard to be sure the tip is really clean. I got one in school but haven't used it in 20 years.

[clockboy]

I tend to apply 50% approx. and have no issues. When using an auto oiler I do a test first to see the amount being dispensed. 

[PeterS]

I found a BHI document online. It all depends whether the endstone has been treated with Epilame or not.
If treated, when assembled it should cover 2/3 of the diameter and if not treated it should cover ½ of the diameter when assembled.

The other two methods are as nickelsilver described, a fine pin and the 1A auto oiler.

 

 

[nickelsilver]

I found a BHI document online. It all depends whether the endstone has been treated with Epilame or not.
If treated, when assembled it should cover 2/3 of the diameter and if not treated it should cover ½ of the diameter when assembled.

The other two methods are as nickelsilver described, a fine pin and the 1A auto oiler.

 

 

Yep. I epilame them but didn't mention it as most folks don't. The end result is all that matters.

[Cmmb8519]

Hi all

 

Just finished service of a EB8800. This is the most basic version of it, with only one jewel in the hairspring pivots.

 

I would usually not lubrificate the pallet fork pivots (and did not on this one) given there is no friction, but since this one is metal on metal, should apply a bit of 9010 to the pivot ends of the pallet fork?

 

Many thanks

 

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

 

[oldhippy]

Yes you should. Metal against metal is not good and will create wear. Only the tiniest amount is needed other wise it will create drag. So small the amount you can hardly notice it. A good tip also is oil just a few teeth of the escape wheel and not the pallet pins, the rotation of the wheel and action of the pallets will distribute the oil.   

[Nucejoe]

8 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Yes you should. Metal against metal is not good and will create wear. Only the tiniest amount is needed other wise it will create drag. So small the amount you can hardly notice it. A good tip also is oil just a few teeth of the escape wheel and not the pallet pins, the rotation of the wheel and action of the pallets will distribute the oil.   

Plus you would be surprised,  ampltiude flies as you lube escape teeth. 

[EatPeach]

I've been using  Moebius 9415 to oil the pallet stone. I usually oils the exit pallet impulse face with the amount like you drop a little bubble on it.

I really don't know how much amount I should applied and is there any sign to tell whether I'm overoil or underoil.

I have one strange case though, the movement right after assembly has 260~270 amplitude but drop to 230 after 10 minus or so. Is this relevent to the pallet stone oiling?

[Graziano]

Hi there , have a look at this video of servicing a mechanical watch at the end the pallet stones are lubricated through the inspection hole , this method always works for me and it should increase amplitude .This method is called dynamic lubrication , if your amplitude has dropped somewhat and not improved after a while, say an hour then maybe take out the escapement and clean and start again .This is a hotly debated topic and there are many different answers .But on saying that you are using the correct lubricant, but don't apply too much and if you can, place the 9415 along the angled surfaces of the pallet stones ,this will increase your amplitude . Only a small amount ever so gently ..........Hope this help

You may have to file down an oiler to a fine needle shape ,or purchase an escapement oiler as an ordinary oiler is to big .

Edited March 20, 2020 by Graziano

[EatPeach]

1 minute ago, Graziano said:

Hi there , have a look at this video of servicing a mechanical watch at the end the pallet stones are lubricated through the inspection hole , this method always works for me and it should increase amplitude .This method is called dynamic lubrication , if your amplitude has dropped somewhat and not improved after a while, say an hour then maybe take out the escapement and clean and start again .This is a hotly debated topic and there are many different answers .But on saying that you are using the correct lubricant, but don't apply too much and if you can, place the 9415 along the angled surfaces of the pallet stones ,this will increase your amplitude . Only a small amount ever so gently ..........Hope this help

 

I do aware of such method. But I think this method would not be available since I only got a 20x magnifier and I don't think I can actually have a clear visual experience and a percise phenomenology about how close the oiler to the escapwheel. This would be a challenge to me.

[jdm]

4 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

I do aware of such method. But I think this method would not be available since I only got a 20x magnifier and I don't think I can actually have a clear visual experience and a percise phenomenology about how close the oiler to the escapwheel. This would be a challenge to me.

Exactly. That is mostly a show off, it's unapplicable in most cases and has not demonstrated advantages. 

[CaptCalvin]

Omega wants nothing more than a wedge when teeth slide along impulse face, but Rolex wants you to really glob it on there. AWCI deems oil on top and in the gaps between escape teeth unacceptable. The GS I observed under a microscope have whole heaps of it all over the escape wheel. My conclusion is, do whatever you want as long as relevant parts are clean and properly treated with epilame and oils are kept away from the body of the pallet fork.

Edited March 20, 2020 by CaptCalvin

[Graziano]

21 minutes ago, jdm said:

Exactly. That is mostly a show off, it's unapplicable in most cases and has not demonstrated advantages. 

With all due respect  I must be a show off because that's the only way I will lubricate the escapement with or without epilame. I even get amongst it all from the balance side on a running movement after servicing and apply lubrication to pallets with 10x loupe .So It works for me, as I posted this is a well debated topic and I say each to their own The only thing I use a microscope for is jewel damage inspection  

Edited March 20, 2020 by Graziano

[Graziano]

1 hour ago, EatPeach said:

I do aware of such method. But I think this method would not be available since I only got a 20x magnifier and I don't think I can actually have a clear visual experience and a percise phenomenology about how close the oiler to the escapwheel. This would be a challenge to me.

If this method is unsuitable for you then may I suggest you lubricate the pallet folk by removing the balance complete then adding a bit of power to the watch and apply a little bit of 9415  directly onto the escape wheel locking point say on every third tooth ,only the smallest amount whilst moving the pallet folk back and forth. This will also work .as  I said in my previous post the amplitude should increase . Hope this helps

Edited March 20, 2020 by Graziano