Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.

[rogart63]

This six movements costing me £5. And £5 for shipping.

[bobm12]

Great deal! If I didn't have so many projects I would start one of those! but soon....:)

Edited February 28, 2015 by bobm12

[rogart63]

I usually lubricate the jewels with Moebius 9415 sometimes 9010 . But when i set the finished movement in the Timegrapher i could see an uneven pattern sometimes. My thinking is that i comes from lube on the escape teeth. How will i do not to get this pattern. Am i using to much lube? I think i use very little anyhow? Try to only get it on the top of the jewel. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by rogart63

[Ado213]

if its a high beat (28800vph) then 9415 is the correct oil, its an oil that turns to grease on impact, however on low beat (21,600 vph) 9410 is the correct oil which does not have these impact characteristics

Pallet jewels should only be lubricated on the impulse faces, not on the top at all. it is good practice to have no visible bead of oil on your oiler when you apply to the pallets, just "wipe" the oil across the face of the jewel, the actual contact area of the pallet with the escape wheel is very small, so little oil is needed, too much just causes drag.

there is another method of oiling the pallets, which is to apply the oil to one tooth of the escape wheel, the theory being it will eventually spread this oil over all contact points.

The noise you see on your timegrapher can be the oil, if you have not applied too much this noise should settle down after a minute or two, The reason being that the oils spreads over the escape wheel contact points over this period, however another symptom of the noise is the pallets themselves, incorrectly set pallets will generate noise.

 

[rogart63]

Fantastic info  I mean the impulse point when i wrote the top . But as you says it's has been better after the watch has run for a couple of days. Watch this time was a seiko 6309 . I guess i need to buy some 9410 then.  The metod of oiling one escape teeth i will test next time.  

[bobm12]

Hi Roger,

Ado means 941, for low beat movements. I don't think there is a 9410, may be a typo. An alternative to 941, used for low beat movements is 9010 if the former is not available.

Cheers,

Bob

[Ado213]

Well spotted on the typo, 941 is correct for low beat and is still available to buy. 

Rogart, if it's taking "a couple of days" for the pallet noise to settle, your putting far too much oil on, it should not take this long for the oil to spread over the contact areas.

It takes a real steady hand to apply oil to pallet jewels and extremely good vision. As my vision is not as it was, I do mine under a scope now, only takes a minute and I can see exactly what I'm doing. I was taught to clean them off and reapply oil if I got any oil on top of the pallets, a pain I know but it seems to have paid off over the years.

oiling is a skill in itself and should be practiced and perfected, as we all know it can make a big difference in a movements performance.

 

 

 

[clockboy]

I learn,t this recently. The angle you use to load lubricant on to your oiler alters the amount & shape of oil on the oiler tip.

An upright 90 deg. entry gives it a tiny about of oil on the tip which is what you want for the pallet jewel. Also what helps is really good magnification.

[Tudor405]

Hi

    In Marks video on servicing 1900/01 he says not to lubricate the pallet pivots. What is the reason for this? While I am sure it is correct can anybody tell me the reason

[Marc]

Ask a lubrication related question and you will get as many different answers as you do responses.

However, here is my take on it.

Consider the amount of movement and the forces involved at the pallet fork pivot compared to elsewhere in the watch, and weigh up the pro's and con's for leaving it dry. The torque at the pallet fork pivot is probably less than anywhere else in the movement, and the angle of rotation of the pivot in the jewel is something like 5 to 10 degrees. As a result the rate of wear through friction at this point is minimal and so any advantage (from a friction wear perspective) of oiling the pivot is also minimal.

On the other hand, because the torque is so small at this point, the effect of drag on the pivot caused by the viscosity of the oil becomes significant, sapping the energy that should be being transferred from the escape wheel to the balance wheel and robbing you of balance amplitude, with a corresponding drop in consistency of rate.

So put simply, if you oil it it may last a little longer but the watch won't keep very good time, if you leave it dry it may not last as long but the watch will perform better.

I have heard of watchmakers who compromise by merely wiping the pivot with oil so as to leave the thinnest of films on it before installing it. I don't know of any research into the benefits / pitfalls of this approach.

Other opinions may differ

[Geo]

Succinctly put Marc! 

[ftwizard]

Question is, do i need to lubricate the pallet fork pivots of a non jewelled movement. Metal on metal doesn't seem like a good idea, but i know it can cause problems in a jewelled movement.

Edited October 15, 2016 by ftwizard

[digginstony]

Simple answer is no you wouldn't lubricate the fork pivots pretty much for the same reasons for not lubricating in a jewelled movement.
I see where you're coming from though. In a movement that has bushed jewels. New bushes are used to compensate for wear or the holes are closed with a staking set. Same as if the jewels were no more than holes drilled into the main plate and bridges.

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[oldhippy]

If the pallet pivots are not jeweled then you oil them with an extremely tiny amount and you must use the type of oil that is used only in escapements. It is not good practice to have metal against metal and rubbing, this will cause wear.  If the movement starts playing up by erratic time keeping then you have used too much and the pivots start dragging in the pallet bridge and bottom plate.  

[digginstony]

If the pallet pivots are not jeweled then you oil them with an extremely tiny amount and you must use the type of oil that is used only in escapements. It is not good practice to have metal against metal and rubbing, this will cause wear.  If the movement starts playing up by erratic time keeping then you have used too much and the pivots start dragging in the pallet bridge and bottom plate.  

This thread seems extremely quiet. I thought it would evolve into a lively debate. I knew my comment could be seen as controversial. I stand by it though.
In a more modern non jewelled movement the assumption is the quality is not going to be great. If any wear does occur, the hole can be closed. Or it could be reamed out and bushed or jewelled. Rather than risk effecting the watches operation with excess oil on the pallet pivots.
In all fairness, oiling the pivots on a non jewelled movement and the risk of the oil becoming congealed at a later stage, is greatly reduced with modern synthetic oils.
Also I believe the quality of the "Watchmaker" and the materials used, has a far greater bearing on the longevity of the movement, than lubrication issues.

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[oldhippy]

It has been controversial for years an I'm sure it will continue to be so. Many watch repairers/makers say you don't need to oil the pallet pivots because the degrees of movement the pallets take is so minimal there's no need for oil and therefore there won't be any wear, if there is it will be very tiny.  

[ftwizard]

I did oil them (9010) and it seems to be running well, so I'll leave it for now. If it starts to act strangely, I may strip it down and do it again. I think I'll leave them dry in the future.

 

[digginstony]

I did oil them (9010) and it seems to be running well, so I'll leave it for now. If it starts to act strangely, I may strip it down and do it again. I think I'll leave them dry in the future.

 

Oldhippy has spent a lifetime in watch making and had no issues. Also Mobius 9010 is an excellent choice. Whether to oil or not is a very subjective subject anyway.



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[watchwork99]

I did my training and apprenticeship with H Samuels & qualified through the BHI.  Ok that was 50 years ago but then, as now,  the maxim was to never oil pallet pivots.  I never have nor do I know anyone else who does & if you think about it there is no reason to,  metal or jewelled.

[JohnR725]

There are a number of reasons why were not supposed to oil the pallet fork pivots. First it's considered unnecessary because it's a non-rotating part. The second the pallet fork has to move very fast when it does move. Lubrication has an interesting property of reducing friction but it also has a dampening effect. Depending upon the watch if you have a timing machine that can measure amplitude you can see a decrease if you oil the pivots. Of course it depends on the viscosity of the lubrication and then of course with time should the viscosity increase the loss of amplitude will be dramatic.

Then images of Seiko lubrication charts. Notice one has the pivots lubricated and the other one does not. Seiko is interesting in that sometimes they oil the pallet fork pivots?

[oldhippy]

I did say its very controversial and it will carry on being so.

[digginstony]

There are a number of reasons why were not supposed to oil the pallet fork pivots. First it's considered unnecessary because it's a non-rotating part. The second the pallet fork has to move very fast when it does move. Lubrication has an interesting property of reducing friction but it also has a dampening effect. Depending upon the watch if you have a timing machine that can measure amplitude you can see a decrease if you oil the pivots. Of course it depends on the viscosity of the lubrication and then of course with time should the viscosity increase the loss of amplitude will be dramatic.

Then images of Seiko lubrication charts. Notice one has the pivots lubricated and the other one does not. Seiko is interesting in that sometimes they oil the pallet fork pivots?

Everything in my very bones tells me not to oil the pallet pivots. This comes from bitter experience. In my earlier days when after servicing a movement and it actually still WORKED. The results were to say the least, disappointing. This wasn't from oiling the pallet pivots but generally just over oiling.
Fascinating that Seiko recommend oiling the pivots on a particular movement! In my very limited experience and the particular movements I've had in my possession I've observed that the Swiss tend to have a higher amplitude than their Japanese counterparts. Don't know if this is a general rule or not?
If so would a movement with a higher amplitude be more susceptible to contamination of the pallet pivots than a movement of a lower amplitude. This might explain Seiko recommendation.
But oiling the pallet pivots I personally believe is contaminating not lubricating. It would take a lot to convince me differently.

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[rodabod]

I think testing with a timegrapher would really help for this particular case. 

[Cad101]

I never oil a pallet pivot I have always been under the impression that the amount of movement on a pallet pivot was minuscule and would take a very long time to wear out plus adding oil to something that hardly moves just gives it more chance to dry out and clog up thus causing friction on the balance.

[oldhippy]

If oiling is undertaken correctly as I have all ready said the amplitude will increase.