Lubricants

[LittleWatchShop]

These are the lubricants my Dad left me.

I have purchased new oils for my hobby work...according to recommendations I got from this forum (just three- light, medium, and grease).

I have lots of this Elgin Oil. 

Seems to me, that my Dad used a lot of the 56-a, but I cannot say for sure.

[PeterS]

Thank you for your reply.
I'm trying to identify which modern, ideally synthetic oils are best for a pocket watch movement. The BHI guide puts everything into one bag from ligne 13 upwards. I'm guessing that the oils I listed above are fine. Just a bit confused why they list 9020 for some pivots and HP 500 for others and then just below the chart state that they are equivalent.

[nickelsilver]

5 minutes ago, PeterS said:

Thank you for your reply.
I'm trying to identify which modern, ideally synthetic oils are best for a pocket watch movement. The BHI guide puts everything into one bag from ligne 13 upwards. I'm guessing that the oils I listed above are fine. Just a bit confused why they list 9020 for some pivots and HP 500 for others and then just below the chart state that they are equivalent.

The 9501 you have is fine for the canon pinion and other setting parts, 8200 or 8300 or even the 9501 again for the mainspring,  then I'd recommend 9415 for escapement as it's just better all around and is fine for pocketwatches down to tiny calibers, either hp500 or 9020 for the train, but 9010 for balance and escape pivots.

[PeterS]

23 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The 9501 you have is fine for the canon pinion and other setting parts, 8200 or 8300 or even the 9501 again for the mainspring,  then I'd recommend 9415 for escapement as it's just better all around and is fine for pocketwatches down to tiny calibers, either hp500 or 9020 for the train, but 9010 for balance and escape pivots.

That was very much my plan until it struck me that the pocket watch movement is larger than the smaller watch movements I'm used to.

I have most of the oils, I don't have 9020 and HP500. I'll probably pick the HP500
I have 9415 but the guide states 941 up to 21600 and this one is 18000.
I also have 9010 but they say 9020 for the balance and escape.

The movement is ligne 18 or thereabout.

[jdm]

55 minutes ago, PeterS said:

I have 9415 but the guide states 941 up to 21600 and this one is 18000. 

How old is the guide? Lubrication is an evolving industry, 9415 has isotropic properties that were not available before, these are more important on on fast beat calibers however as Master Nickelsilver said, "just better all around". 

Quote

I also have 9010 but they say 9020 for the balance and escape

Will you use it in hot, temperate, or cold climates? On paper that could be the factor helping in choosing between two sysntetical oil having a marginal viscosity diffirence. 

Quote

The movement is ligne 18 or thereabout.

Do movement sizes really influence lubrication choices? So the prevailing sources lead us to believe. If that is supported by facts, that is left to the individual ingenuity to find. 

[PeterS]

It's British Horological Institute guide from 2007. That's fairly modern considering I have de Carle books from 1940s.

The owner doesn't use it. I guess he will put it on his coffee table from time to time and that's about it, so I'd say room temperature. Still, I'd like to do the best possible job I can.

I'm not sure how much the size matters, I'm no expert. I'm guessing it does matter, I just now came across Moebius chart and they also go by the size of the calibre. Looking at their chart, it's what Nickelsilver suggested.
9010 for balance and escape and 9415 or 941 for the pallet jewels.
That makes it easier for me as I only need the HP500 or 9020, I have all the other oils and greases.

The Moebius chart is here:
https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/category/moebius-lubricating-chart

British Horological Institute chart:
https://theindex.nawcc.org/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I have lots of this Elgin Oil.

Definitely keep the Elgin oil it supposedly last forever and it's extremely good. So good that it's prized by lots of people and still use today plus it was synthesized. I'm attaching the technical sheet for that.

Then a newer lubrication guide from Omega 2017. A big Problem with horological lubrication guides they don't always tell the whole story? For instance if you look at ETA  they recommend an awful lot of HP 1300 In locations like setting parts where I think grease Would be preferred. It's only when you get the newer tech sheets to find out that they surface treat basically the entire watch which allows them to get by with oil as it's not going to spread.

58 minutes ago, PeterS said:

The Moebius chart is here:

Newer lubrication chart can be found at this link Which now brings up an amusing problem notice at the bottom of the page this "The Synt-HP oils are preferentially in use for ruby bearings. For brass bearings, we recommend Microgliss D-4 or D-5."

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The 9501 you have is fine for the canon pinion and other setting parts,

I was talking to somebody who works in the swatch service center and 9501 other than visible watches 9504 is preferred. The 9504 appeared on my bench last week and for just trying it on one of the pocket watches I banish the 9501 as this is better.  the white high-pressure substance that they mix in does seem to do its job quite nicely at least for the one watch I tried.

2 hours ago, PeterS said:

I also have 9010 but they say 9020 for the balance and escape.

 

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Will you use it in hot, temperate, or cold climates? On paper that could be the factor helping in choosing between two sysntetical oil having a marginal viscosity diffirence. 

Interesting about the temperature reference for choosing 9010 or 9020. It rains a lot here I wonder if that qualifies? But somewhat joking aside if you do look at the lubrication specifications there are specifications for lubricants to be used in extremely cold locations plus those have to be surface treated or they will just spread away. But that's more like Arctic temperatures.

Typically I work on pocket watches you will find on my bench is zero 9010. The light oil a choice is 9020 unless I'm doing a quartz watch than its 9000. Then yes I'm going against the world for the entire world believes 9010 is the universal balance wheel pivot oil. But amusingly if you look at the tech sheet it says the oil does not spread except everyone who uses it typically surfers treats the stuff related to balance pivots. Yes read the specifications for shock protected jewels they have been surface Treated. Eta  even surfers treats their balance staff. Then as far as the world coming to the and sluggish amplitude I've never had that with 9020. Lubrication also becomes a personal choice and my personal choice for light oil is 9020.

If you look at the horological data of escapement lubrication originally it was 9010. Then they moved to 941 at least on paper. That little reference is just because they had a lubrication for escapement's doesn't mean people gave up to 9010 and embraced the new 941. Then for the higher frequency watches 9415 came out. But don't know if was cheap watchmakers or cheap watch manufacturers? In that they soon went from the low-frequency watches have this the high-frequency have that to an either or situation. Then now 9415  is recommended for everything providing you apply it correctly and don't get carried away with too much.

 

TS5500EN elgin oil.pdf Omega 8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Definitely keep the Elgin oil it supposedly last forever and it's extremely good. So good that it's prized by lots of people and still use today plus it was synthesized. I'm attaching the technical sheet for that.

Wow...cool.  Thanks for that!!

[PeterS]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Typically I work on pocket watches you will find on my bench is zero 9010. The light oil a choice is 9020 unless I'm doing a quartz watch than its 9000. Then yes I'm going against the world for the entire world believes 9010 is the universal balance wheel pivot oil. But amusingly if you look at the tech sheet it says the oil does not spread except everyone who uses it typically surfers treats the stuff related to balance pivots. Yes read the specifications for shock protected jewels they have been surface Treated. Eta  even surfers treats their balance staff. Then as far as the world coming to the and sluggish amplitude I've never had that with 9020. Lubrication also becomes a personal choice and my personal choice for light oil is 9020.

I'm positive that BHI specified 9020 for a good reason. I don't normally work on pocket watches so I don't have the need for it and I will use 9010 but if I was working on larger calibers more often I'd most likely follow their guidelines.

[SuspectDevice]

On 1/10/2014 at 8:29 AM, Mark said:

Moebius 8200 grease for mainspring. Moebius 8217 for barrel wall (automatic watches)

It's a lot but at a minimum get 9010, 9415, D5 and 8200

So how much slip are we talking about here if I use 8200 rather than a 8217 on an automatic?

My Elgin bumper 607 has some weird stuff going on with possible over-stressing the small "ratchet wheel lever" (I don't know what to call it because I can't find a part number)

Here is a picture...My guess is when the watch is almost fully wound, the rotor just moves back and forth over a few teeth and doesn't swing the whole way OR there isn't enough slip to keep from over stressing the mechanism.

My thought is I might want a bit more slip in the winding spring....Any ideas?

(Picture credit goes to Gene Jockey)

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by SuspectDevice

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, SuspectDevice said:

So how much slip are we talking about here if I use 8200 rather than a 8217 on an automatic?

You might find the link below interesting. On modern watches with modern automatic mainsprings breaking grease is required. They're designed specifically to use breaking grease. But in the discussion below the documentation is in reference to an earlier system for automatic watch mainsprings. It's conceivable with the older mainsprings that they're holding much much tighter. This means that using 8200 which would be unacceptable today because he would slip prematurely and slipped too much may be suitable for the older watches if you have the older mainspring.

You also notice in the discussion that Omega has a test to tell if it's holding enough. Strangely enough they don't have a test of its holding to well. For instance I saw Seiko watch were somebody used to much of one of the modern breaking greases and when it was manually wound up and hit the end it slept but it had way way too much force there is definitely a danger of damaging the automatic. This is where the application of some of the breaking greases is critical.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/18992-2-piece-automatic-mainspring

[SuspectDevice]

22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

You might find the link below interesting.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/18992-2-piece-automatic-mainspring

Excellent link...Thank you

The article uses "mainspring and slipping attachment" rather than the what has been referred to now as a "2 piece mainspring."

It older terminology is more useful regarding oil selection. 8200 appears to be the correct choice for possibly all bumper automatics assuming they all use slipping attachments.

[jdm]

6 hours ago, SuspectDevice said:

The article uses "mainspring and slipping attachment" rather than the what has been referred to now as a "2 piece mainspring."

Also known as bridle.

When some watch part has not been invented in England (the automatic watch actually was, but first produced in Switzerland) then you have all kinds of funny translations from French or German. 

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, SuspectDevice said:

It older terminology is more useful regarding oil selection. 8200 appears to be the correct choice for possibly all bumper automatics assuming they all use slipping attachments.

In the absence of any other data the above is probably correct if you still pass the test of being able to hold the winding up to a certain point before it slips. As long as the outer part is strong enough to hold and does not require breaking grease then it would be acceptable. But any of the newer watches I think unified you'd never build a hold any power at all once it slips it would release all of its power.

[jdm]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

But any of the newer watches I think unified you'd never build a hold any power at all once it slips it would release all of its power.

I don't think that a mainspring can behave like that.

With the MS unwound there is no torque on the barrel, but much force pressing it to the wall, because all the coils are outward wanting to expand more. 

As you start winding, the coiling starts moving toward the arbor. Torque available on the barrel quickly increases, but pressure (friction) decrease between the outer coil and the wall.

At almost full winding not even a full coil contacts the wall, but just an arc of it. Here the function of the bridle becomes important. Its tip is in the opposite direction and punts against the wall, effectively braking, while the above happens. Unlike the end of the main part, that would be dragged along. Some barrels (e.g. Sellita) also have notches on the wall to positively engage the tip of the bridle into the wall. 

At some point an equilibrium is found and even if the auto winding (which is, by nature, relatively weak) is able still turn the arbor, the MS will slip a corresponding tiny bit to avoid excessive stress on the innermost coil, which could snap over a long time. 

The braking grease is there just to move the equilibrium of forces futher toward building a larger power reserve, delaying slipping. Its total absence does not prevent an automatic MS to be wound anyway to a significant portion of its full potential. 

[jolax]

May I know what lubricating oil specs do I buy for lubricating parts like the pellet fork and gears for Seiko movement? And where is a good place to buy them with the that pin sharp oil dispenser? I am just a hobbyist and would like to complete my tool set here since I like to tinker with some of my cheaper watches. I wanted to be learn some basic watch repair skill or even be able to service my own watch in the future if I get to that point. Again, please do let me know what lubricating oils should I get here. Thanks guys!

[Klassiker]

For hobbyist work on Seikos, the same oils as for any other make. If you take the advice given by Mark in the 2nd post of this very thread, you will not go wrong. As for where to buy, it depends where you are in the World. There is a listing of suppliers on the forum.

[EdB]

What would be the best breaking grease for this movement? This will be my first automatic complication so I would like to get a grease that would be useful on more then this movement due to cost of breaking greases. 

Kluber P-125

Moebius 8217

 

[watchweasol]

Hi what and which greases and oils is an emotive subject and has many shades of opinion  http://www.ofrei.com/page246.html shows all the lubricants and there uses , there are also charts by moebius which doo the same. I have also attached the BHI recomendations .  You will no doubt receive many differing answers to this question based on peoples experiance.

BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

This "lubrication" issue is driving me a little crazy.  I bought a couple of bottles of Novostar (B and L) but it bugs me that the one for the train wheels is small and the one for escapements is large.  The bottle of grease is so big that I am going to grease my tractor with it and still have some for watches.

My Dad left me some Elgin oil.  According to @JohnR725it is good stuff.  So, I am thinking about using it on everything.  Yeah...poke me in the eye.  I am not doing this for hire...for my own amusement.

My brother restores vintage cars.  He says the car guys have all the same arguments about lubrication.

Discussing lubricants is a slippery slope.  (sorry...I could not resist!!)

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

My Dad left me some Elgin oil.  According to @JohnR725it is good stuff. 

As this is a lubrication discussion we should be nitpicky. By the way which Elgin oil? In the Age old bickering discussion here's a link to another discussion where I'm swiping an image. I'm also attaching a PDF. As you can see somebody tested the oils and interesting results.

Then Elgin oil has another interesting characteristic which was it was popular and still apparently is popular. Samples were gathered up years ago set off some place and being manufactured again. I'm attaching the PDF and the second link is where it can be purchased. Unfortunately it's not available in this country, I heard a rumor because it has the word Elgin on the bottle and whoever's holding on the Elgin watch name objected at least that was the rumor.

Novostar Is an interesting brand and always makes for interesting reading reading the various websites where they explain where each lubricant is to be used. Just add that confusion I have a chart which also has if you look carefully the equivalent lubricants from that other company that makes expensive watch oil. Then on the very bottom it even less the viscosities which I find interesting because their oils are very very light.

Then the last two links don't know what effect this will have on things but the company found that the very last link no longer exists it's now part of the company found at the third link.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/oil-type-reccomendations.39391/

https://www.beco-technic.com/werkzeuge-verbrauchsartikel/oele-fette-oelgeber/oele/etsyntha-elgin-watch-oil-praezisionsuhrenoel-7-g.html#

https://info.brw.ch/en/solutions/watchmaking-industry-and-micromechanics?utm_source=Toolshop&utm_medium=Banner&utm_campaign=07_21_Uhrenindustrie

http://www.afswitzerland.com/index.php/en/

 

 

TS5500EN elgin oil.pdf

[LittleWatchShop]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

By the way which Elgin oil?

This here.  Pretty sure it is M56-b

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Pretty sure it is M56-b

I would agree but looks like there's a little piece of paper in the back of the box? If you take it out unfolded place it on your flatbed scanner which I'm sure you have then we could all see what it says. Unfortunately I only have the A version of the oil. If you look at the chart that I posted up above you'll notice for viscosity is claimed to be light? My definition of that is it's almost like water I would never think of using it as a lubricants. The problem with superlight lubricants are and the chart shows that they really spread easily without surface treatments.

[LittleWatchShop]

[LittleWatchShop]

Note the comment about development with Mellon Institute.  This ties it to the chart comment for M-56b