Hairspring Frustration

[Pip]

I know it’s me. I know it’s something I need to conquer. I always seem to struggle getting a nicely concentric hairspring when sitting on a balance to sit nicely and not bunch up the coils when I install the balance. Sometimes they sit beautifully, sometime not, and I’m annoyed with myself for not knowing why. Anyone able to point me in the right general direction? I know HS are a book or two on their own but this keeps happening and is driving me crackers. (HS and watch demagged and clean and dry).
Help me General Kenobi, you’re my only hope...
 

 

 
 
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[anilv]

Are these pics of the same balance wheel?

If the balance in the first pic (the one from below) is sitting with its pivot in the hole and the second is the same balance then I think the problem is with your technique in installing the balance wheel. Perhaps you could elaborate more on how you get the balance in place?

I personally prefer to hold the edge of the balance and balance cock in my tweezers when installing the balance wheel as I find I have more control. Most people tend to let the balance dangle while only holding the cock in the tweezers.

Anilv

 

[Pip]

Are these pics of the same balance wheel?

If the balance in the first pic (the one from below) is sitting with its pivot in the hole and the second is the same balance then I think the problem is with your technique in installing the balance wheel. Perhaps you could elaborate more on how you get the balance in place?

I personally prefer to hold the edge of the balance and balance cock in my tweezers when installing the balance wheel as I find I have more control. Most people tend to let the balance dangle while only holding the cock in the tweezers.

Anilv

 

Yes, same balance wheel. It’s technique that I’m asking for help with Anilv so I’ll try again with yours. Currently I’m in the dangling club and I can struggle to get the impulse engaged a bit.

 

 

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[clockboy]

The first pic shows a hairspring & balance in good condition. The second pic shows a hairspring that is either contaminated, magnetised or just damaged.Where the last coil attaches to the end stud has been bent inwards see pic. I would remove clean with a de- greaser, de-magnatise and install again before any manipulations.

[VWatchie]

This video shows how Mark Lovick installs the balance. In preparation, make the pallet fork (guard pin) point towards the centre of the movement. The watch repair lessons have a video that shows and explains in detail how to go about it.

[Pip]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

The first pic shows a hairspring & balance in good condition. The second pic shows a hairspring that is either contaminated, magnetised or just damaged.Where the last coil attaches to the end stud has been bent inwards see pic. I would remove clean with a de- greaser, de-magnatise and install again before any manipulations.

It's the same balance, the pics were taken about 5 minutes apart. Only thing that had changed was to move the regulator back towards neutral as it was pointed a little to one side.

It has been cleaned a couple of times (in lighter fluid and hung on a post with the HS dangling to dry) and demagged several. Maybe I need to buy a compass to check if my demagging is working.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Pip

[VWatchie]

40 minutes ago, Pip said:

(---) Maybe I need to buy a compass to check if my demagging is working.

1

Do you have an iPad or an iPhone? In that case, I'd recommend the "LEPSI - Watch MAGNETISM" App. I think it's available for Android as well but don't know how well it would work on your hardware (of course). I demonstrate it on my iPad here.

[rogart63]

On the picture it looks to be okay. Sometimes i can't get the hairspring clean enough with lighter fluid. I dip them fast in acetone and blow them with the blower. That usually fix most hairsprings. 

[jdm]

10 hours ago, Pip said:

 

It has been cleaned a couple of times (in lighter fluid and hung on a post with the HS dangling to dry) and demagged several. Maybe I need to buy a compass to check if my demagging is working.

Magnetism does not make more difficult to fit a balance.

Also, I recommend that you use petroleum ether or other purified chemical instead of lighter fluid, and do not let the balance dangle on the hairspring.

[anilv]

Take another pic with the balance sitting on top of the balance cock... If the gathering is damaged the pic won't be as nice as the earlier one. 

The problem with the dangling balance method is that it's a bit fiddly for watches like this Seiko.  It's fine for Swiss handwinds where the balance pretty much drops straight in but on watches where the balance is partially covered by a bridge the potential to snag the balance is higher. 

Anilv

[bojan1990]

I would say that the lighter fluid is just not enough to clean hairspring properly. At least rinse it in acetone and try again.

anilv is right, the dangling balance method is not suitable for watches where the balance is somehow covered. My method is to hold the cock and balance together with tweezers and put them where they have to be (approximately). After that I can manipulate with the cock only and put everything in place. For other watches the dangling method works just fine.

[Pip]

I downloaded the app @VWatchie and it's showing no magnetism is present. I will remove, take photo's, and reinstall tonight. I need to get this one sorted soon as I have donated it as a prize for a competition on another forum I'm involved with and want to donate a cleaned and serviced watch that's running well. It was in a right state before, I'm happy with all my work other than the balance installation. Thanks for everyone's help so far 

[VWatchie]

Are there any reasons other than oil and magnetism that can foul the coils?

@Pip When you have the time, it would be nice to see a picture of the watch itself! I actually have a similar situation with a Poljot 2614.2H movement. The Penultimate HS coil sticks to the utmost coil. I have demagnetized it, and I've just serviced it. I really can't detect any oil looking at the coils in my stereomicroscope but I guess it must be there  (noticed I had overoiled the balance end stone, ouch!)

[jdm]

22 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

The Penultimate HS coil sticks to the utmost coil. I have demagnetized it, and I've just serviced it. I really can't detect any oil looking at the coils in my stereomicroscope but I guess it must be there!

That's because the hairspring is distorted.

It takes a lot of magnetism or grease to make coils actually stick, even if these reasons are usually blamed first.

[vinn3]

4 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Are there any reasons other than oil and magnetism that can foul the coils?

@Pip When you have the time, it would be nice to see a picture of the watch itself! I actually have a similar situation with a Poljot 2614.2H movement. The Penultimate HS coil sticks to the utmost coil. I have demagnetized it, and I've just serviced it. I really can't detect any oil looking at the coils in my stereomicroscope but I guess it must be there  (noticed I had overoiled the balance end stone, ouch!)

   you need to read up or "video up" in the "entry shape"  of the lead into the main part of the hair spring.  its in all the books AND  if you have a "time grapher" (sp) it will tell ypi when thw shape "is best".  vin

Edited July 31, 2018 by vinn3
typo

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, jdm said:

That's because the hairspring is distorted.

It takes a lot of magnetism or grease to make coils actually stick, even if these reasons are usually blamed first.

 

That's interesting because it doesn't look distorted. It actually looks just fine. I can take an oiler and gently separate the coils, and they stay separated until it starts to run, but sometimes, it can tick for a week or two before the utmost coils stick together again. What would be the remedy if not a contamination but indeed distortion?

[jdm]

51 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

What would be the remedy if not a contamination but indeed distortion?

With manipulation. But if it's as you say then I don't know why it gets stuck.

[VWatchie]

49 minutes ago, jdm said:

With manipulation. But if it's as you say then I don't know why it gets stuck.

Manipulation is definitely beyond my current skill level. I'll clean it again so that I can rule out contamination for sure and demagnetize the balance separately in a plastic bag. Thanks!

Edited July 31, 2018 by VWatchie

[Pip]

Take another pic with the balance sitting on top of the balance cock... If the gathering is damaged the pic won't be as nice as the earlier one. 
The problem with the dangling balance method is that it's a bit fiddly for watches like this Seiko.  It's fine for Swiss handwinds where the balance pretty much drops straight in but on watches where the balance is partially covered by a bridge the potential to snag the balance is higher. 
Anilv

Here’s a photo I just took.



While not quite perfect it’s plenty fine for a Seiko 5 I would think and I’ve done some manipulation but not enough to improve on this much if at all.

Interestingly I just turned it over and then back again and it’s now sat like this which is nowhere near as good.


And then a very quick manipulation and it’s to this



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[Pip]

@Pip When you have the time, it would be nice to see a picture of the watch itself!

Here you go. This is before I started servicing it.




Annoyingly I didn’t take a pic that showed the balance and HS before disassembly. Must remember to do that in future.


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[ecodec]

I have a Seiko 5 in for repair. Lots of balance endshake. Staff looks OK. Low amplitude and stops. Probably jewel bearings, Lever flicks to the banking fine. We will see when I go in further.

[szbalogh]

1 hour ago, Pip said:

Here’s a photo I just took.
 

Pip, there is a checklist regarding hairsprings in regular watch service. I will not write it again you should do that first. 

But if it is surely clean and demagnetized then i would check the end curve is following the regulator pin path. It looks like the end curve or the HS attachment point, or the start of the end curve is distorted making the HS off center.

Edited August 1, 2018 by jdm
Please don't include pictures in quoting

[nickelsilver]

It's either really magnetized or contaminated. How are you demagnetizing?

[jdm]

52 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It's either really magnetized or contaminated. How are you demagnetizing?

No, that's not the reason. Seiko hairsprings are extremely easy to get distorted, and equally difficult to correct. read below:

 

 

 

[Pip]

53 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

It's either really magnetized or contaminated. How are you demagnetizing?

With my small blue electrical demagnitizer. You know the standard type from china. Seems to work ok. I've downloaded the Lepsi Mag app that was recommended by @VWatchieand it's showing no magnetism present.

I think that I need to up my HS cleaning game. I can't seen anything untoward on it but that doesn't mean it isn't there.