Fake Military Watches?

[Tmuir]

I think this Pocket watch falls into the topic above.

Printing on the dial looks crude which set off the first alarm bell, but a watch advertised as being made during WWII for the German military with the words in English 'Made in Germany' on it?

Come on!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLD-WW2-Years-GERMAN-Military-POCKET-Watch-Serviced/282823850130?hash=item41d99d7892:g:hz8AAOSwL9paa2pj

Yet another case of a cheap old watch been fitted with a new dial trying to be something its not.

Anyone got any other obvious bogus watches they want to add to the list?

[vinn3]

as I recall,  the "fake watches"  started with the rolex.  it was said " a $400 US  for selling a fake rolex".    now fakes are quite common and hard to identify.  vin

[Hendo]

29 minutes ago, vinn3 said:

as I recall,  the "fake watches"  started with the rolex.  it was said " a $400 US  for selling a fake rolex".    now fakes are quite common and hard to identify.  vin

While that's possibly true of modern watches, the Swiss were the first mass producers of fake, or misleadingly labeled watches. They were copying the British and French watches of the day, and later the Americans. There's a whole industry of fake vintage pocket watch or pocket watch conversion military watches coming out of Eastern Europe. Ukraine comes to mind as a prolific producer, although some of the work I've seen firsthand is often very skilled. There's also fake military wristwatches out of Southeast Asia, in particular Vietnam.

[Chopin]

It's fake, trust me. There are a few prominent sellers of fakes from Bulgaria, Ukraine, maybe other Eastern European countries as well. Of course there's also India and South America...

Item location:

European Union, Bulgaria

[jdm]

The watch may be authentic vintage but the dial is reprinted. Bulgarian sellers have found that is appealing to the naive buyer so the place all kinds of cheesy images like Che Guevara playing darts with Fidel. There is no IP violation or counterfeiting,  so you can complain as much as you want but Ebay will not remove listing.

 

 

[vinn3]

2 hours ago, Hendo said:

While that's possibly true of modern watches, the Swiss were the first mass producers of fake, or misleadingly labeled watches. They were copying the British and French watches of the day, and later the

2 hours ago, Hendo said:

While that's possibly true of modern watches, the Swiss were the first mass producers of fake, or misleadingly labeled watches. They were copying the British and French watches of the day, and later the Americans. There's a whole industry of fake vintage pocket watch or pocket watch conversion military watches coming out of Eastern Europe. Ukraine comes to mind as a prolific producer, although some of the work I've seen firsthand is often very skilled. There's also fake military wristwatches out of Southeast Asia, in particular Vietnam.

Americans. There's a whole industry of fake vintage pocket watch or pocket watch conversion military watches coming out of Eastern Europe. Ukraine comes to mind as a prolific producer, although some of the work I've seen firsthand is often very skilled. There's also fake military wristwatches out of Southeast Asia, in particular Vietnam.

I think;  we should define the word"fake"  as it applied to watches.  vin

[StuartBaker104]

It’s a pretty crude movement too. I doubt it would have made the grade for any military procurement.

[oldhippy]

Its a fake and its crap.

[dadistic]

Well, the ploy is working, it's been bid up fairly high. I guess P.T. Barnum had it right.

[Tmuir]

Just noticed the seller has it as a private listing, so you can't tell if its actually 24 separate bids, or just the seller with 2 fake accounts he has used to bid on his own item to make it look like it is hotly contested so it might trick someone into thinking its worth bidding on as 24 other people already has.

If no-one wins he just cancels the sale and hasn't lost anything

[vinn3]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:44 AM, vinn3 said:

I think;  we should define the word"fake"  as it applied to watches.  vin

miss labeled watches,  could you mean "private label goods"?  Hamelton put over a dozen different dial labels on their high grade items for their customers.  this is not a fake.   i would say a asian watch with a Hamilton  label is a fake. ? vin

[Tmuir]

To me a fake is something not made or authorised by the original maker.

There are levels of 'fakes' the Swiss made pocket watches to look like they were made in the USA, but weren't and were much more cheaply made. If sold as a watch made in the USA you could call it a fake. If sold as a Swiss watch in the 'American Style' I wouldn't call that a fake, but it could still trick some buyers into thinking they were getting something the aren't.

 

My post was more about modern fakes. Either something made within the last few years to look like its much older, or a genuine old watch / clock modified to make it look like its more valuable than it is like the post above with an old watch fitted with a new dial to make it look like it was a German military watch.

 

Then you get homage watches that can fall into a grey area.

[Hendo]

On 1/28/2018 at 11:44 AM, vinn3 said:

I think;  we should define the word"fake"  as it applied to watches.  vin

How strict do you want to be? I was a little general with some aspects of my statement, but nothing I said was untrue. Modern watchmaking does tend to have more absolute terms in what is considered fake. 

[vinn3]

its not a big deal to me, I tend to buy vintage watches.  to some buyers it is.

[Deggsie]

Its a fake and its crap.

Your definitely a fellow Englishman old hippie [emoji3]

 

 

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[JollyRoger44]

Authenticity feedback please. Listed as 1920 manufacturers date. Detail and engraving of skull and chain fob tops. 

Im green and wet behind the ears so please educate me. 

 

Much appreciated in advance. 

[eezy]

As a general first rule I ignore anything with military images on the watch face.

Not that I've got several thousands to spend on a watch

[Tmuir]

I agree with what eezy says, although there are some exceptions to the rules.

If military timepieces interest you there are a number of useful books.

Military Timepieces by Z.M. Wesolowski reasonable price consider it a starting book to get you interested

Waltham Trench watches of the great War

Elgin Trench watches of the great war, both by Stan Czubernat medium priced good books if you are interested in WWI Elgin or Waltham watches

Military Timepieces by Marvin E Whitney, pricey but the best reference on military timepieces from the USA

Military Timepieces by Konrad Knirim and British Military Timepieces by the same author. Both hideously expensive, written in German and English, fantastic colour photos and brilliant reference books, first one on German and obviously the second on British Timepieces, but it also has a small bit on British allies military timepieces.

The first book is easy to get as are the Waltham and Elgin books, Marvin's book can be found is you search, but you are very unlikely to find a cheap second hand copy. The last 2 books are still in print and available from Amazon, you have more chance in winning lotto than finding a second hand copy of this book as anyone who has bought it is very unlikely to let it go.

[yankeedog]

1920's manufacture with 1941 marked on the dial?

[yankeedog]

2 minutes ago, yankeedog said:

1920's manufacture with 1941 marked on the dial? considering that date, no nazi identifiers ?

 

[3volv3]

Good day everyone, first post here and I'm signing up now.

Looking to buy my first ww2 D.H type watch, a Helvetia, and I would really appreciate your opinions on authenticity?

Thank you in advance, hoping to get some feedback.

 

Kind regards,

Nico

[HSL]

If you look in the book "German Military Timepieces of World War II Volume 3 German Army/Waffen-SS" by Ulric of England and
on Page 33 you can see how a genuine should look like, Helvetia made a similar watch before like in the early 30's and after the war so they became popular to sell from countries like Ukraine where they just popped in a Helvetia caliber 82A or similar in a fake case.

Germans are known for their efficiency and during a raging war they wouldn´t care to engrave the movement with the amount of jewels and so on the barrels and thats why the most confirmed genuine are just blank inside with just 82A stamped on the side; while one from the 30's would have some text and even some serial numbers on the train bridge. All the casebacks in the book has the 3190 engraved in them and so do the fakes, but the most genuine has a CB mark stamped on the inside.

The things to be aware of here is the serial number on the trainbridge, looks like a 6-9 number serial, what you would expect on a pre war (81-24) movement.
The movement mostly provided during the WW2 was the 82A-24. On this specimen you also can see the text General Watch Co , Helvetia's parent company on the movement which I think never occures on the real deal.

The D 15004 H looks a bit familiar to a case I bought from the bay in 2017 just for reseach purposes, think the serial was D 15009 H or something like that.
But who knows progress in identifying these gems might have progressed but I wold want to see the inside of the back and a better closeup of the movement before buying it.

[HSL]

Just as a fun fact in the same theme, there was a bunch of cases roaming around for a while. I'm sure they are contemorary WW2 stuff but probably never used. I've seen these NOS cases with Helvetia 800C movements in them.
I guess they seem to be more accepted these days but is it a genuine WW2 watch? Can one just pop in a movement in them and say they just made a restauration, after all the cases doesn't meet any specs setup as a military watch. Maybe they needed a coctail watch for nicer receptions?

 

 

[3volv3]

@HSL, thank you for your response. I think I will let this one go for now and look for a Helvetia with the right specifications to make it an original D.H watch.

[Tmuir]

Looking at Konrad's book I agree.

There should be no engraving on the back of the movement, also the dial and case is too good.

The back of the case looks to of been refinished and the dial is pristine.