Pallet fork lubrication: pallets and pivots.

[EatPeach]

5 minutes ago, Graziano said:

If this method is unsuitable for you then may I suggest you lubricate the pallet folk by removing the balance complete then adding a bit of power to the watch and apply a little bit of 9415  directly onto the escape wheel locking point say on every third tooth ,only the smallest amount whilst moving the pallet folk back and forth. This will also work

So in doing so are those lubricants gonna to be more evnely spread than the method which is to oil the impulse face of the fork?

[Graziano]

2 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

So in doing so are those lubricants gonna to be more evnely spread than the method which is to oil the impulse face of the fork?

Yes that is correct 

[CaptCalvin]

1 hour ago, Graziano said:

Yes that is correct 

In theory. 

[Graziano]

24 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

In theory. 

works for me

Edited March 20, 2020 by Graziano

[Marc]

I would hazard a guess though that which ever technique is adopted, after 10 minutes of running it would be impossible to determine whether an escapement was lubricated dynamically or statically.

As ever, when it comes to lubrication it's impossible to get any two watchmaking practitioners to agree and it comes down to personal preference. As long as which ever technique is carried out correctly, both will achieve the same end result, and preference is largely determined by which technique a given watchmaker finds easiest or most convenient.

[jdm]

4 hours ago, CaptCalvin said:

In theory. 

 

2 hours ago, Marc said:

 after 10 minutes of running it would be impossible to determine whether an escapement was lubricated dynamically or statically.

Exactly. But the distinct and perceptible advantages of traditional, static lubrication are:

• Work on steady parts, no stress, smaller chances for costly mistakes.
• Works on any watch, no matter how hidden the escapement is.
• Can examine the applied quantity 

Then as mentioned everyone has the right to do as he most likes. And others the right to comment on it beside telling how they do. 

[EatPeach]

2 hours ago, Marc said:

I would hazard a guess though that which ever technique is adopted, after 10 minutes of running it would be impossible to determine whether an escapement was lubricated dynamically or statically.

Yes, I agree. I usually regulate the movement 6 or 24 hours later to see if the status shows that the movement is function well. And I for sure, as a beginner and underlearned, can't determine how the movement is lubricated. But I think I should make my problem more clear is that my particular case is the movement's amplitude drop after ten minus and never came back to the status right after lubrication. And that for sure puzzles me. I didn't mean to start a war between two method of lubrication. And I sincerely thanks everyone enter this question and patiently answer me.

[jdm]

2 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

But I think I should make my problem more clear is that my particular case is the movement's amplitude drop after ten minus and never came back to the status right after lubrication. 

I would not blame the escapement and much less its lubrication. Which mov't is that, has the MS been replaced?

[EatPeach]

2 minutes ago, jdm said:

I would not blame the escapement and much less its lubrication. Which mov't is that, has the MS been replaced?

Seiko 2220, I didn't find any NOS MS and the barrel is sealed.

[jdm]

10 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

Seiko 2220, I didn't find any NOS MS and the barrel is sealed.

Seikos swing less than Swiss watches and do just fine anyway, if you get 230°, and a good pattern in all positions that is perfectly acceptable.

Seiko barrels are not sealed, just closed more tightly since the idea is to replace it as a complete ass.y. Since that is easier said than done, only in extreme cases, like a broken spring, is advisable to open them. Which is a slightly more delicate operation than the usual.

Edited March 20, 2020 by jdm

[EatPeach]

Just now, jdm said:

Seiko swing less than Swiss makers and do just fine anyway, if you get 230°, and a good pattern in all positions that is perfectly acceptable.

Seiko barrel are not sealed, just closed more tightly since the idea is to replace it as a complete parts. Since that is easier said than done, only in extreme cases, like a broken spring, is advisable to open them. Which is a slightly more delicate operation than the usual.

I get a amplitude around 210~220 in pendant and dial up/down position after theamplitude is stable. During durantion of changing position, the amplitude would drop to 190 back come back to 200~210 10 or 20 seconds. I've ask someone in the forum had serve this movment and he said the barrel is sealed. I dont know if that was true but I did find no way to open it. I guess we need more testimony then to know whether if it is really sealed. But anyway I got two 2220 movement and based on the tactile experience I wind the watch, the mainspring is quite soft compare to Swiss movement's mainspring.

[jdm]

4 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

I get a amplitude around 210~220 in pendant and dial up/down position after theamplitude is stable. During durantion of changing position, the amplitude would drop to 190 back come back to 200~210 10 or 20 seconds.

That is fine. Even the Seiko service manuals specify the need to wait 30 secs between checking on different positions.

4 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

I've ask someone in the forum had serve this movment and he said the barrel is sealed. I dont know if that was true but I did find no way to open it. I guess we need more testimony then to know whether if it is really sealed.

You can link that answer here. I do not have any 2220 with me but I don't see a reason why it should have a barrel different from other Seikos. Note that is not an encouragement for you to open it, actually I recommend that you don't.

4 minutes ago, EatPeach said:

But anyway I got two 2220 movement and based on the tactile experience I wind the watch, the mainspring is quite soft compare to Swiss movement's mainspring.

For that you would need compare watches having the same crown diameter and the same gear ratio to the ratchet. I find a very small much difference between e.g. a Seiko 6R15 and an ETA 2824, but the first has 50 hrs reserve, winding vs. 40.

[EatPeach]

40 minutes ago, jdm said:

For that you would need compare watches having the same crown diameter and the same gear ratio to the ratchet. I find a very small much difference between e.g. a Seiko 6R15 and an ETA 2824, but the first has 50 hrs reserve, winding vs. 40.

Let's say maybe the experience of  screwing down the rachet wheel screw or winding from the rachet wheel screw is more accurate. Feels a lot softer for me anyway. But so far I have no evidence to show the MS is the cause of amplitude varience. The jewels are all clean so due to my unconfident of my lubrication skills. The intuition suggest me to doubt the issue is probably caused by my butter hands.

Edited March 20, 2020 by EatPeach

[Nucejoe]

The amplitude drop is relevent to pallet oiling. I start with little amount and let the movement run for a day or two, then add more oil if needed till I get a good result. Works for me, since I am spend as much time as it takes for good reults.

[StuartBaker104]

There is a nice picture of a correctly lubricated pallet jewel in here. Never been able to get mine to look that perfect!

http://www.nawcc-index.net/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf
 

[JohnR725]

Attached PDF starting on page 13 another method.

On 3/19/2020 at 10:05 PM, EatPeach said:

I have one strange case though, the movement right after assembly has 260~270 amplitude but drop to 230 after 10 minus or so. Is this relevent to the pallet stone oiling?

What happens if you wind the watch back up?

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf

[EatPeach]

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Attached PDF starting on page 13 another method.

What happens if you wind the watch back up?

 

8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication cousins uk.pdf 1.28 MB · 3 downloads

I've seen this file before but I also confused because some other service viedeo or technical sheet might use more/less oil than this.

Nothing change. I don't think it's a matter about how much power left in the mainspring. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, EatPeach said:

I don't think it's a matter about how much power left in the mainspring. 

It is. In the very first seconds it delivers a lot of torque, and you read a larger amplitude. 

But with correct lubrication it will show a close or same amplitude 10 minutes after full wind, one houlatet and possibly 20 hours later if the mainspring effect. 

See topic below about the same phenomenon 

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/4569-6r15-amplitude-record/

 

 

[JohnR725]

The reason why there is confusion over lubrication is because there is confusion. 

Before the electronic timing machine starting with paper tape first onto a digital machines. You wouldn't know the effect of lubrication so many of our early technical references or places where people don't have a timing machine things can get interesting for lubrication. But as soon as you get a graphical display you can tell if you've under lubricated that does show up. The add-in amplitude and they can really see the effect of poor lubrication.

Always amusing if you have a group of watchmakers that supposedly should know what they're doing and to discuss escapement lubrication.

Then there is another problem are you timing your watches properly?

The reason I ask if you know how to time your watch is when you initially wind it up you can wind it up really tight if you're not careful and even if you do wind it up to the end it's going to have a little more power. If you look at a variety of the manufacturers such as Omega's recommendation "Measures to be made between 30 and 90 minutes after fully winding.". Or time module which is Seiko's OEM division their recommendation is "Measurement should be done within 10~60 minutes after fully wound up.",  ETA Is interesting in that it has its technical guides but it also has for a lot of their watches manufacturing information sheet where you find all sorts of interesting technical specifications like this "All check are made without the calendar in function and chrono not coupled. The check has to be done at full winding, referred to as 0 h, after 1 to 3 hours running." Then yes like lubrication of the escapement there does seem to be some minor variations in how to do timing. So it appears to be the quickest would be 10 minutes followed by 30 then one hour depending upon who you look at. Personally I usually find 15 minutes to 30 minutes works fine.

Then the other aspect of this is what is the watch doing at 24 hours later. Most the watch companies not all will publish what they expect that 24 hours and not always concerned about when it's wound up but they are concerned about whether it can run 24 hours without an issue.

 

[transporter]

Just to throw another theory into the fray, I read in either one of De Carl’s or freid’s  books that they use a small piece of peg wood, basically they get the oiler with oil and allow the oil to soak/sit on the peg wood, then they use the peg wood to directly apply the oil to pallet stones. I personally have used this method and I seem to find it works fine.

As to wether there is contamination from the wood I haven’t seen any yet looking under the microscope.

[EatPeach]

6 minutes ago, transporter said:

Just to throw another theory into the fray, I read in either one of De Carl’s or freid’s  books that they use a small piece of peg wood, basically they get the oiler with oil and allow the oil to soak/sit on the peg wood, then they use the peg wood to directly apply the oil to pallet stones. I personally have used this method and I seem to find it works fine.

As to wether there is contamination from the wood I haven’t seen any yet looking under the microscope.

I'll have no idea whether it's good or not since I use 9415. I think it won't soak into the peg wood so it'll act it's like a oil pen in my particular case. But I'm not sure if you use 941. probably function better

[watchweasol]

Hi Find attached a couple of publications regarding lubrication. they may be of some help to you 

Moebius Oil and Grease Application Chart - Leosics.co.uk.html BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches (1).pdf

[EatPeach]

Hey guys. I was killing my time and reading the technical sheet of 7s26. I found seiko suggest watchmaker to oil both two pallet fork pivots. Then I check other models as well, the results are the same. The technical sheets of 7s26,7s36,7009 all recommend  watchmaker to oil the two pallet fork pivots with MobiusA( presumably 9010). I think this is not a very common practise. What do you think? What's the purpose of this？Will you oil it?

Edited May 9, 2020 by EatPeach

[watchweasol]

Hi  This subject has been discussed a lot regarding oiling pallets etc the use of fixodrop to facillitate holding the oil on the pallet with no spread, and everybody has their own theory on the subject as you will see   Use the search box on the top right of the screen to search for the subject and you will probably find many diverse opinions on the subject.  I have attached two commercial publications for your interest.    cheers

BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches (1).pdf Moebius Oil and Grease Application Chart - Leosics.co.uk.html

[Nucejoe]

Are we talking pivots of fork arbour or pallets.