Need help with used Bergeon Platax tool No. 2677

[VWatchie]

These are the two punches (0.1 and 0.15 mm) used to put force onto the balance staff to remove the roller and to drive out the balance staff. For anyone not familiar with the Platax tool here’s an excellent video of its use.

As you can see, the two holes/grooves in the punches are clogged, and I wonder if anyone knows if this is by design or because they have been clogged by broken off balance staff pivots?

Unlike the Platax punches, these roller remover punches from Bergeon’s dedicated roller remover tool No. 30070 have extraction holes so that any broken off pivots can be removed.

What suggests that the Platax punches are clogged by design is that they lack these pivot extraction holes. What speaks against this theory is that the clogged Platax punches will inevitably bend or break the pivots instead of putting the force onto the cone of the staff. One could argue that it really doesn’t matter much but putting force on the cones gives a better and more controlled distribution of the force. Also, why have two punches (0.10 and 0.15) when both will have the same effect, that is, bend or break the pivot?

My guess is that the Platax punches have been clogged by broken off pivots, but that clearing them would be extremely difficult and not worthwhile as the tool can still be used.

BTW, in the video I linked too @Markmentions that if enough people would show interest in a Platax tool video tutorial he could make one. I believe several comments expressed such an interest, including me, so when and if you have the time for it Mark, it would be much appreciated!

Edited September 8, 2021 by VWatchie

[clockboy]

The holes are blocked. Not sure how to clear as they are broken pivots which will be blued steel. Possibly anneal the tips and drill.

[JohnR725]

it is one of the unfortunate problems of tools like this? I know the punches for my k&D have a similar problem.

[Plato]

This might be a daft suggestion, but... 

Maybe try heating the punch to expand the metal then dip the end in water to try and free the remainder of the staff?

If the remainder of the staff cools quicker than the punch, it might just free it. At least that's my guess, I've never tried it. 

[VWatchie]

Thanks for your suggestions, but I think I'll try to snap off or file down the pivot (unless it's already broken) before I punch out the staff. It should give a larger area for the punch. To bad the punches for the dedicated roller remover tool doesn't fit the Platax tool. Anyway I'll be using the dedicated roller remover tool to remove the roller rather than the Platax. Let me know what you think!

[praezis]

11 hours ago, VWatchie said:

...before I punch out the staff ...

Maybe you should read this before...

Frank

[watchweasol]

An interesting concept, removing from the roller side. But whether you remove from either side the use of the lathe to cut away the hub or the rivit leaving the balance wheel rim un touched is probably the best way, always assuming a lathe is available.

[praezis]

Hi, I was pointing to the next-to-last post with the microscope view.

It shows why punching from the rivet side - with or without removed rivet - will widen = damage the hole. The staff was already distorted to taper shape by rivetting. This widened part will be forced through the hole then.

All pros that I know and appreciate will remove the hub by those reasons.

Frank

[clockboy]

15 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Thanks for your suggestions, but I think I'll try to snap off or file down the pivot (unless it's already broken) before I punch out the staff. It should give a larger area for the punch. To bad the punches for the dedicated roller remover tool doesn't fit the Platax tool. Anyway I'll be using the dedicated roller remover tool to remove the roller rather than the Platax. Let me know what you think!

I own a Platax tool and when used I only apply the lightest taps to remove, if it shows no sign of removing then I cut the majority of the balance rim away with my lathe before finally tapping out with the platax. Some Staffs seem to be made of real strong metal and I type with experience these vintage staffs if punched out it widens or distorts the hole. The key is what ever method is used the balance must not be distorted in any way.

[VWatchie]

I have very limited experience and have only used the Platax tool to remove staffs from modern (< 70 years old) wrist watches. It has worked well and the staffs have come out with very little force. The biggest risk is if you don't know how to use the Platax tool properly. You must, of course, make sure punch never reaches the hole in the balance. BTW, doesn't the hole in balance wheel also become wider and wider as we punch in new staffs? Perhaps modern balance metal can both expand and retract? Yes, that seems to be an insane idea, but nothing surprises me and I'm certainly not a metallurgist.

Come to think of it, jewels are wider than the jewel holes, but still we can replace a jewel several times, perhaps even indefinitely(?) without widening the jewel hole? Or maybe not...

[clockboy]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I have very limited experience and have only used the Platax tool to remove staffs from modern (< 70 years old) wrist watches. It has worked well and the staffs have come out with very little force. The biggest risk is if you don't know how to use the Platax tool properly. You must, of course, make sure punch never reaches the hole in the balance. BTW, doesn't the hole in balance wheel also become wider and wider as we punch in new staffs? Perhaps modern balance metal can both expand and retract? Yes, that seems to be an insane idea, but nothing surprises me and I'm certainly not a metallurgist.

Come to think of it, jewels are wider than the jewel holes, but still we can replace a jewel several times, perhaps even indefinitely(?) without widening the jewel hole? Or maybe not...

Good points indeed. All I know I changed a vintage balance a few years ago using the Platax and when fitting the new balance it was too loose to rivet.
There was a very good article a few years ago in the BHI mag with regard to punching out staffs and an example was given changing a vintage Rolex staff. The guy who summited the article informed that these staffs used metal that in his experience had to be annealed before cutting the rivet and showed how to anneal without damaging the balance. 

[nickelsilver]

There's always a risk of opening the hole in the balance when punching out a staff. On a hard steel balance (bimetallic) or a Glucydur there's a smaller risk of enlarging it too much, with softer nickel balances it's pretty sure the new staff will be quite loose. Supposing you manage to get the new staff riveted, there's no assurance that the staff is centered in the enlarged hole, so you'll have to spend more time poising- which on many balances means removing metal with no means of adding.

 

The K&D staff removing accessory for staking tools and the Platax do ensure that the balance isn't distorted when punching out a staff. The Platax is particularly useful for dismantling assemblies where you need support between two parts. But I'm with Frank on removing the hub. Or, if the balance is Glucydur or nickel you can soak it in alum for a few hours.

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Or, if the balance is Glucydur or nickel you can soak it in alum for a few hours.

That sounds like a super safe method, thanks! Is there any easy method to determine what type of alloy a balance is made of? What other alloys are balances (usually) made of?

[rodabod]

If those were my own punches with broken pivots inside then I'd try drilling with a carbide bit. It it snaps, then remove the end of the punch on the lathe and re-drill.

[nickelsilver]

13 hours ago, VWatchie said:

That sounds like a super safe method, thanks! Is there any easy method to determine what type of alloy a balance is made of? What other alloys are balances (usually) made of?

They are pretty much bimetallic (brass and steel), Glucydur (which is hardened beryllium copper), or nickel alloy. If you aren't sure, check with a magnet, as long as the balance isn't ferric it's OK. There can be some discoloration of the balance at times but it seems to clean up with normal watch cleaning solutions.

[VWatchie]

For anyone interested I made a PDF how-to guide for the Platax tool. If you read it and find anything missing or incorrect, pleas let me know so that I can update the PDF. Thanks!

[Colditz]

I too would like to see a video of the 30070 in use. Seconded VWatchie.

 

 

[Colditz]

If I recall I watched video of Mark shaving some of the riveted staff in a lathe with a graver prior to punching out to weaken  the metal.

This seems a safe way if you are in doubt about the strength of the balance staff.

[jdm]

8 minutes ago, Colditz said:

I too would like to see a video of the 30070 in use.

 

[Jack75]

I have made Platax punches from silver steel. The only trick worth passing on is that to drill the hole the best method is to start with a centre tool and then use an end mill of the appropriate size. Curiously they drill much faster than a twist drill and are available from https://drillbitsunlimited.com/Default.aspx

Incidentally, Matk Lovick had a video of the use of a Platax to replace the balance staff of a vintage Cyma watch. The title was 'Fitting a new balance staff to a vintage Cyma www mitary watch' It can be found with a google search.

[clockboy]

I have made replacement punches as well. However I used steel rod not silver steel but hardened the tips. These punches do not require any force as such as the parts being removed are small with only tiny gentle taps for them to work. 

[pent]

So I have a Platax tool with the exact same problem, clogged punches.  I bought some drill bits but the smallest set I found was still too large to drill out the broken pivot.  Has anyone been able to unclog these?  I have some Vissin that I could try, but I'd be worried about damage to the punch.  I may consider heating as well.  Perhaps this is why the tool is no longer made.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, pent said:

Perhaps this is why the tool is no longer made.

The problem with that theory is in other words this is a defective tool where is the replacement tool?

Reality is it's no longer made because it's no longer needed.

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Reality is it's no longer made because it's no longer needed.

Because everyone uses a lathe, or the K&D thingie?

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Reality is it's no longer made because it's no longer needed.

Has been replaced with what, or balance staffs are no longer being replaced by professionals but instead the entire balance complete is replaced?