Need help with used Bergeon Platax tool No. 2677

[praezis]

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

balance staffs are no longer being replaced by professionals

They are, but not punched out.

6 hours ago, VWatchie said:

instead the entire balance complete is replaced?

These golden times were long ago.

Frank

 

[clockboy]

This thread was originally posted in 2021 in that time most of the issues have been covered. The Platax tool is no longer manufactured so only used platax tools are available and for extortionate prices. I own one purchased new and it is a great tool for removing balance staffs etc. However there are other tools available that do an excellent job such as attachments for a staking tool. The traditional way of removing a balance staff was to remove its rivet using a lathe. This method with care is faultless. 
As I have highlighted during this thread punching out a balance staff has to be approached with caution. It’s very easy distort a balance if too much force his applied. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pent]

Yes, my intention was never to reignite a discussion on how to remove balance staffs and rollers.  Only wanted to follow up to see if anybody had luck in any technique of removing broken pivots from the Platax punches.

[clockboy]

Apologies I did not read through all of this thread. Looking at the issue of removing a broken pivot from a Platax punch would be very difficult indeed. I did break the tip of a punch ( Don’t know how!,) . So I annealed the tip of the punch re- shaped the tip with my lathe to remove the broken part and re drilled and hardened the tip. So as a follow on I would have thought the same method would work to remove the broken pivot. 

[JohnR725]

On 6/4/2023 at 1:57 AM, VWatchie said:

Has been replaced with what, or balance staffs are no longer being replaced by professionals but instead the entire balance complete is replaced?

I was waiting for an answer from somebody before I came back to the group.

If you look at tools and material supplies over the years you'll see a trend of their just not available anymore. The Swiss appear to see that there is no longer in need to supply things for repairs. Like for instance balance staff for modern watches. If balance staffs are not being supplied is no longer a need for a tool.

One of the things interesting about Seattle is we used to have an AWCI chapter. This met with have regular meetings with lectures at some point in time we parted ways with AWCI but we still have meetings with lectures. The benefit of this is continuous learning and upgrading and interesting people to give lectures.

So Jeff worked his way up to the head watchmaker of a chain of jewelry stores I think they have about used to have about 30 watchmakers including a service center. That matter is they had watchmaker he went to all the various company trainings all over the place and he would bring that knowledge back to us. Like how to change a particular Rolex balance staff. But for this discussion when I was curious about was what about all the rest of the balance staffs and it turns out the method was the same for all of them. They use a Horia tool With special pushers to just push the staff out. Push isn't technically the correct term in a way. Rolex, Elgin and Hamilton possibly others all have stabs designed to break the rivet. In the case of the Rolex staff when it breaks it makes a satisfying popping sound as Jeff once gave a lecture at doing that. The rivet broke free and a beautiful circle and that is still the method that Rolex was recommending as of 2019 when he retires. So apparently some professionals are still changing balance staffs when they're available they're just not using the tool of this discussion.

Then I found different documentation for the tool it looks like even sizes of the holes

[VWatchie]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:08 PM, pent said:

Only wanted to follow up to see if anybody had luck in any technique of removing broken pivots from the Platax punches.

Nope!

I decided to live with the clogged holes and handle it as I describe in the PDF document in the following post:

 

[Jon]

On 2/10/2022 at 11:53 AM, jdm said:

 

Great vid. Straight to the point. Nice!

On 9/8/2021 at 10:23 AM, VWatchie said:

These are the two punches (0.1 and 0.15 mm) used to put force onto the balance staff to remove the roller and to drive out the balance staff. For anyone not familiar with the Platax tool here’s an excellent video of its use.

As you can see, the two holes/grooves in the punches are clogged, and I wonder if anyone knows if this is by design or because they have been clogged by broken off balance staff pivots?

Unlike the Platax punches, these roller remover punches from Bergeon’s dedicated roller remover tool No. 30070 have extraction holes so that any broken off pivots can be removed.

What suggests that the Platax punches are clogged by design is that they lack these pivot extraction holes. What speaks against this theory is that the clogged Platax punches will inevitably bend or break the pivots instead of putting the force onto the cone of the staff. One could argue that it really doesn’t matter much but putting force on the cones gives a better and more controlled distribution of the force. Also, why have two punches (0.10 and 0.15) when both will have the same effect, that is, bend or break the pivot?

My guess is that the Platax punches have been clogged by broken off pivots, but that clearing them would be extremely difficult and not worthwhile as the tool can still be used.

BTW, in the video I linked too @Markmentions that if enough people would show interest in a Platax tool video tutorial he could make one. I believe several comments expressed such an interest, including me, so when and if you have the time for it Mark, it would be much appreciated!

I would put a slight flat on the side of the punches near the tips after annealing the tips, then drill through the side so they look like your last pic with holes in the sides. You'll need a V block and clamps to hold the work still and a precision bench press drill with some decent tungsten carbide drill bits. Then you'll find removing the broken off staffs maybe a little easier. You'll then need to harden and temper the tips again afterwards. Jobs a good 'un then.

Or, you could turn some replacements on your lathe (if you have one) from some tool steel and harden and temper them with holes in the sides. I always have a supply of tool steel to make new stakes/punches and various tools. 

Here's some hand levers made to BHI specs... https://www.instagram.com/p/CpTjbxujGrP/

Edited June 5, 2023 by Jon

[LittleWatchShop]

Nice work Jon.  I would love to see your detail process for the metallurgical part--softening...working...hardening and tempering. 

[pent]

Thanks for some of the repair advice.  Luckily, the holes are not clogged enough to make the tool useless except for maybe the smallest punch, and the pivot broke off deep enough that there is still a hole, just shallower.  The other two appear to be in much better condition.  I may end up selling the tool once my staking set comes in.  

I also saw that Bergeon makes the 30070 tool, which is half a platax, just to remove rollers.  If those replacement punches are the same diameter as the platax punches, I could move the collars over and use them instead.  https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/roller-remover-with-punches-bergeon-swiss?code=R48644

Sadly, I have no clue about metalworking or turning.  Hope to acquire these skills as time goes on, but don't have them yet.

[VWatchie]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:53 AM, pent said:

I also saw that Bergeon makes the 30070 tool, which is half a platax, just to remove rollers.

I bought the Bergeon 30070 tool but unfortunately, the quality was so poor (Chinese copy!? Got it cheap on Amazon) I can't get the roller into the slots (extremely poorly made). However, the two punches are well made so I use them with my Platax. They don't have the same diameter as the original punches for the Platax tool, but as the diameter is slightly smaller it still works well to remove rollers. However, when removing the staff I use the original (also clogged) punches, but I file down the pivots first so that they will rest on the staff cones.