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Howzit Watch Fans, ...I'd like to share a nice watch with a history with you . I just acquired an Eterna Matic Kon Tiki . Eterna is famous for Introducing the ball bearing rotor on todays self winding watches . The Logo for Eterna is 5 ball bearings . I have attached a link called The story of Eterna : http://eterna-fanatic.com/pages/eterna-information.php The Kon Tiki commemorates the the Pacific Voyage of explorer Thor Heyerdahl on a Balsawood raft in 1947 .... The Kon Tiki watch I have has a movement numbered 1422 UD , and is from 1961 . Eterna chose to date their watches by movement numbers instead of serial numbers because they changed movement numbers so often as demonstrated by the fact that in 1961 alone , there are 9 movement numbers . The watch commemorates the voyage with a gold emblem on the case back depicting the sailing raft "Kon Tiki " . On to the watch....the first few pics are the sellers... On to my pics .....The wach was serviced according to the seller , and I found fresh silicone lube on the case back and crown gaskets . Also a very clean movement with virtually no marks or scratches visible . I cleaned the case and installed a new crystal , and although the original Gay Freres bracelet came on the watch , I found the links to feel too lightweight and rather chintzy ,[ that's my take ] . So I installed the links from a bracelet I had in my stash but used the original end links , which needed a bit of body and fender work , and also kept the original deployment buckle with the Eterna / Kon Tiki logos and the Gay Freres inscription . I hope you enjoyed looking at this watch as much as I do . Aloha , Louis

Picked up this from the bay this week a really useful catalogue with info on Incabloc. It shows the sizes the jewels & springs etc. One thing I have picked up already is, not only are the cap jewels not always that same for the upper & lower but also the springs are sometimes different for the upper & lower.

TheBeerGuy: As david pointed out, you can buy a French set of screwdrivers, re-tap and replace the set screws, and buy a set of Burgeon blades. That's what I did, and they work just fine. Here's another example of buying non-Burgeon products that work just fine. In one of the previous posts, someone recommend buying a pair of Burgeon hand levers for $219.00. Here's a pair that I have and they only cost $6.13 + shipping. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-Metal-Precision-Watch-Hand-Remover-Pin-Lever-Replace-Watchmaker-Repair-Tool-/381381404354?hash=item58cc1a66c2:g:ddgAAOSwd0BV4~fr The quality is very good and they function as designed. I also have a larger pair (made in India) for pocket watches, but I don't use them very much. There are some high end tools that Burgeon and Hortec make that can't be found elsewhere, but for basic tools there are cheaper alternatives. Honestly, I find this name brand worship ridiculous. Thanks!

Hi Micky, I have a couple of hand presses. The old one is a twin station version of the press you have and is built like a brick sh** house; the second single station press is more lightweight. Both of these give a huge amount of feel when fitting hands, but I have made adjustments to the single stage one to give great sensitivity and feel. The anvil fitted to this press is made of high density polythene and prevents the movement being marked. The small anvil, Bergeon 5409 is a great addition. It has a centre pin that rises to support the bottom pinion when pressing hands on. This eliminates the possibility of moving the bottom jewel during the process. It is not suitable for all movements though.

I have put this on other posts but just recently I have been very disappointed with Bergeon. I don,t mind paying a premium for better quality tools but I suspect many of their tools are now being made outside of Switzerland. In my opinion if buying Bergeon it is best to buy the vintage Bergeon tools as they seem to be of a better build quality.

I 100% agree with you David. For years I have thought that a lot of the "High Quality" (expensive) stuff has come from China, and not just watchmakers tools. The bottom line is buy what works well makes you happy, whether it cost hundreds of pounds or pennies, just choose carefully guys.

Seiko, In my view the actual quality of a tool is its ability to perform the task that is expected of it. Other considerations are simply sales fluff. Once I discovered that the Bergeon lathe was actually manufactured by a company (Dixie) that is owned by Mori Seki (a Japanese company), I began to take a closer look at what Bergeon actually is. In contrast to Horia, which actually does manufacture products, I suspect that Bergeon is really a sales and distribution operation. This would explain why many of their products look exactly like similar products that are marketed as Chinese. There will always be a hard core element that looks a lot more closely at a brand name than the actual product. They will always look the the Chinese product as "cheap Chinese junk" and a Swiss label as "the finest quality". This is in spite of the fact that both products are probably made in the same Chinese factory. While I see nothing wrong with that world view I simply have a different way of looking at things. After all, why pay a reasonable price for something that does a great job when you can pay an excessive price for something that does the same job and has a designer label. david

Oh my ! At this price, I do not think these tools are for beginners. But I can be wrong .. Price, is this the reality of what it is worth? .. It seems to me that it is expensive a little do not you think?

This is a set of Bergeon tweezers and the set sells for $435.66. The Bergeon screwdrivers were $480.00, the Bergeon case opener was $749.00, two Bergeon hand levers $219.00, set of three Bergeon hand setting tools $57.80, two Bergeon eye loupes $93.60, a Bergeon watchmaker hammer for $31.40, a Bergeon automatic watch winder for $1559.00, Bergeon oil cups and oilers $259.00, a Bergeon staking set for $995.00 and a Bergeon rubber blower $13.88. This comes to $4893.34 to get started working on watches. This is certainly one route to take. If it is $13.88 over budget then hold off on the rubber blower. david

Damn this is is amazing, price not so much, but it sure is very well made. DSC05374 by Micky Aldridge, on Flickr Anyone else have one, and if so, do you know the best base plate for off-centre pusher work, i.e. chronographs, ETA 7750/53? I have a new movement holder for these two movements on back order, but unsure of the base plate I need.

Going back to your original question. There is no restraint, other than financial, why the Chinese can't produce high quality tools or watches that are on par with any other manufacturer in the world. My personal choice is Bergeon and Horotec but I have many tools that are not by these two manufacturers. Also the Japanese produce very high grade tools if not specific to watch making. Load bearing tools of high quality should be treated using "Slow Tempering " to achieve the necessary hardness to maintain their stability. Case Hardening is ok but even the best processes normally can only achieve 25thou thickness. Cheap tools that may look identical to there more expensive counterparts can be untreated and soft but may well prove to be adequate. I think GEO got it right when he stated that it doesn't matter if you pay hundreds of pounds or penny's, as long as you're happy with your acquisition. Careful buying is the solution Sent from my SM-T585 using Tapatalk

The things that look like tweezers are the beginner watchmakers nemesis. They are expressly designed to ping small parts into low earth orbit, from where they will not return until a suitable replacement has finally been tracked down and purchased.

You can use the movement holder such as for the 7750 with the horotec but it is not as slick as the Boley or Bergeon but it does work.

Very nice Micky, I think you might have to have have a custom base unit made.

Cheers for that @Geo I will certainly look into that, but for 28XX ETA movements I have this slick movement holder, and found it fits the base of this Bergeon hand press perfectly. Its the base plate for 7750, and 7753 movements I wish to find, a base which allows for off centre pressing of the small chronograph hands. Slick 11/1/2 Inge fits perfectly by Micky Aldridge, on Flickr @sstakoff The timegrapher is amazing, so many settings, and custom settings, memory, print out functionality, and readout options, loving it, esp[ecially with the auto mic, I can let it run a custom test of all six positions whilst I carry on with other work. @clockboy I have both of the Horotec hand pressed, the singular type, and the trio model, I found the trio press tool a waste of month if I'm honest as the two pillars obstruct many movement holders for the two end pushers to be used.

<Horotech>

I have the horotec version which works fine but Geo,s do look of better build. However I only seem use it on chronographs as I find the hand tools quicker to use. Horotec 05.022

Was going to suggest the 5409 as well. Curious - what is your opinion on that MTG-9900A timing machine I see there????

Looks like you have a Duofix system there. Check this out: http://great-british-watch.co.uk/watch-anti-shock-settings/ That should answer your question - with pics!!!

No one said it has to be Bergeon ...If you happy buying cheap and think your getting a bargain good for you. No I am not a pro.. but I use tools of all kinds and prefer reliable ones.As we are talking about pros are you? EVERY pro I have read that teaches watch repair all suggest better tweezers, screwdrivers and to stay away from the cheap knockoffs. But what do they know. it must be a conspiracy and all the people who know are in on it. Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

I think you are comparing apple with oranges here. Most likely the handheld dies did slip simply because by hand pressing and turning cannot be applied effectively, but with a press style tool that is not a problem In fact the dies which you purchased first can be used on a 5700 type machine like the one that david pictured in a previous post, and I consider the handle to be included just as a convenience. The chinese also manufacture a copy of your second tool for about one half of what you paid.

No corners are cut, be reassured. We are trying to explain how most tools are exactly the same but overprice by Bergeon and others. BTW are you a professional? Sorry I didn't read your introduction.

Some cheap tools are fine & some not. A good example being, I purchased a a chinese set of Rolex style case opening dies for approx. £30 (see pic below). However when used they would not hold under pressure and slipped and I could not open a 3135 Rolex case. I then raided my savings and purchased a Horortec opener (Horotec 07.320) for £230BUT it worked perfectly first time & works first time very time with no issues. Unfortunately in horology some tools are expensive. THESE DID NOT WORK (for me anyway) BUT THIS TOOL WORKS 100%

Here is the tech sheet for the falsa 4009 to help you. Felsa_4009.pdf

I couldn't squint my eyes tight enough to work on the indexing mechanism , so I got a stereo microscope with a camera to work on these puppies . Luckily I was able to pick one up at a better price then is posted in this picture .

While the watchmaker does the results as you put it .. If they cut corners on the tools of their trade, chances are they cut corners on the quality of their work.

I agree with dinngstony While I would not buy a $480 set of Bergeon screw drivers, out of my price range, maybe if I had deeper pockets. I surely would not purchase a $5 set either, unless it was all could afford. When it comes to doing precision work personally I like the best I can afford. The best I can afford does not necessarily tie it to price. While I am pretty new to watch repair myself, what I do know is when I do other types of work Wood working, Electronics, with more accurate tools ( IE: better saws and blades - less run-out, Soldering irons that can be temperature adjusted ) I do a better job with a lot less aggravation. Buying better used equipment in good condition at discounted prices is the way to go. Not to repeat myself, another upside is you can always sell better tools if you do not need them any more. See how many people will want to buy your cheap tools. In the end its all relative, if cheap is all you can afford its not cheap to you.

I've just done a dit of research and my suspicions are confirmed. Hear is an extract from a K&D patent. " In the preferred form of my invention, as shown in Figs. 1, 2, and 4, I enlarge the upper portion of the guide-sleeve d and countersink therein a sleeve i, provided with a plurality of spring-tongues i' i2, carrying, respectively, a semicircular bearing-face, as i3 i4, adapted to partially encompass and frictionally engage the punch or plunger h. This sleeve i may be secured within the guide- sleeve d in any desired manner; but preferably it is made a “ driving fit.” It looks like removing the sleeve will be a real problem. You will probably require some heat and penetrating fluid like PlusGas to remove it. Here's a link to the whole patent script: http://kanddinverto.weebly.com/kendrick-and-davis-patent-us707887.html

My money says there is a build up of rust behind the springs that is forcing the springs into the bore. If this is the case removing the offending rust won't be easy. Without having it in front of me, I would guess that the springs are part of a sleeve that is the bushing for the stakes slinging through, and if this is the case it will have to be removed from the frame to allow thourogh cleaning.

Probably a lot of crud and dirt inside the tube? Try spraying it with some penetrating oil? Use a brush or something to clean the springs?

I have an MKS staking set and have had a Favorite as well as a couple of others and one thing that they all had in common was that the tube into which the stake was placed was actually a sleeve which fitted into the bore of the frame proper. The axis of the bore of the sleeve was very slightly off set from the axis of the bore of the frame and the sleeve could be rotated in the frame such that the axis of its bore could be brought to exactly coincide with the circle of holes in the anvil. The sleeves were either a tight friction fit or had a grub screw to lock them in place once adjusted. @JohnR725 I suspect that the knurled collar on your staking frame is probably something similar to this set up, but having never used a K&D I could well be wrong. I believe that K&D made quite a thing of the fact that in their staking sets you could let go of the stake without it dropping in the frame which means that they must have devised some means of providing a controlled amount of friction in the frame, and I wonder if what robmack is seeing in those 2 spring steel bars is that mechanism. If so then there should be some movement in those springs to allow the stake to pass, but enough resistance to grip. Is it possible that the springs have seized in the bore and a good soak in penetrating oil might solve the problem?

Time ago there was a disco in Bangkok named like that. When I see things like the Seiko below, that name comes to my mind. (WB adjusted between shots)

The picture above is a Bergeon Rolex Case Opener that sells for over $700.00 dollars. The picture below is a "cheap" tool and sells for around $150.00. I own one of these and it works great. This is a set of STELLA tweezers. They are well made, work great and cost around $30.00 for the set. This is a sew of movement holders and sells for $2.43 This is a set of Bergeon screwdrivers that sells for around $480.00. This is a set of cheap screwdrivers that sell for $5.49. Aside from the tips, which can be inexpensively replaced, they work about the same and do the same job. david

There are many threads covering this. In fact, one recently is largely the exact same topic, so maybe add to that thread to keep the useful results contained in one place. Buy Practical Watch Repairing by De Carle. Stick with good quality tools in general: Get some Dumont tweezers (number 2 or 3) and European-made screwdrivers (eg. AF Swiss) as these parts replace your fingers since you will rarely touch the watch parts with your hands. Cousins is an excellent online shop in the UK. But best advice would be to use the search function!

Thanks for the the name of somewhere else to buy second hand tools from David

Hi Guys, I thought I'd post this up, so the information is here for people looking for a watch parts cleaner and can't find one. As both Elma and L&R are no longer making their "tried and true" parts cleaner (as shown on Mark's Video), many people like me have been very frustrated looked for a second-hand one in good working order ... well stop looking ... you can buy one new!! There is a company in India making a direct copy of the old Elma Super Elite Cleaner, right down to the shape of the jars!! Here's the link: http://www.sunrise-exports.com/watchtools/equipments_machinery.html The models are Janta 796 and 797A ***Australian Forum Members*** You can buy them in Australia direct from Labanda www.labanda.com.au E-mail: [email protected] Brisbane: 07 3876 7481 Sydney: 02 8004 1626 Melbourne: 03 9038 8545 Perth: 08 6363 5517 I hope this is of some help to others like me who have been searching in vain to find a cleaner.