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  1. Haven't posted for a while as I've had family visiting and then sick with a cold . but did manage to work on this Gruen (AS 5203) watch which has really grown on me. It also has a cool escapement setup, and an even stranger keyless works (no sliding pinion!). Picture of pallet fork (stock image): Here is the before shot: Movement with and without automatic works: Here is the dial side showing the complicated keyless works without a sliding pinion Here is a closeup on that pallet fork in the movement: showing only 1 banking pin The image below shows the mechanism where the hands setting wheel is not horizontally brought into position, instead it engages and disengages vertically, rather than use a sliding pinion (stock image): And here is the finished watch with its new strap and crystal (original was cracked):
    5 points
  2. OK, there are different reasons for differences in rate in horizontal versus vertical position. But the main reason which is the base of the all this reasons is decrease in amplitude in vertical versus hiruzontal positions. One of the basic reasons has it's roots in the formula for the real balance-hairspring system own resonant frequency, which is long and complicated formula that shows that free oscillations actually are not isochronic. Here is a page copy from old book for watch regulation theory, which shows different cases of ange beginning/end of the hairspring and the way this angle affects the rate. Well, this is in Russian, but the vertical axis is 'gain/delay' in seconds per day and horizontal axis is the amplitude in degr. So, what is imortant here is that if the hairspring shape is chosen correctly, it will be able to compensate the escapement effect on the rate when low amplitude and thus relatively isochronical work will be acieved. And if the hairspring is simply 'vibrated', with no idea of what angle beginning/end will receive in the end, then easily a difference of entire minute per day in vertical/horizontal positions can be achieved. But, this is the designer's duty. If it is regular balance-hairspring couple from the manufacturer, then such problem would not exist. The most probable reason in You case would be that the hairspring touches something and thus gets shorter when big amplitude. This 'something' well can be the collet, if the hairsprinfg is not centered there. To see if it is the case, we will need picture of the hairspring where the collet is seen. So, remove balance from the cock, put it hairspring up and make a photo of the hairspeing
    4 points
  3. Another fan of Smiths watches here. Nice to have an English made watch. I'm currently working on a 19J cal 0104. I fitted a new crown. Just a generic one from Cousins Parts are usually quite easy to find should you have a mishap. I was making a final tweak to the hairspring on mine yesterday, when it snapped at the stud I looked in my drawer of Smiths parts. There was only one part in the drawer - a complete balance for an 0104 ! Couldn't believe my luck.
    4 points
  4. A basic check one does when checking a hairspring is how well centered and flat it is at the collet. Out of flat is visually quite clear in the watch, out of center is harder to describe, mainly the inner 1/2 of the coils look "jumpy" as the balance oscillates. Adjustment is done with the balance out, hairspring on, in ideally a set of hairspring truing calipers. These permit a better view of the spring, and better access, than regular calipers, though those work as well. Adjustment is done on the first 180 degrees or so of the spring from the collet. The caliper is adjusted so the balance can spin with no play. Just slowly turning the balance, follow the first coil/s of the spring from its exit from the collet, and it should make a nice progressive spiral. If it is out of center, it will seem to spiral out, then cease, then out, or even go back-and-forth sort of. As with everything it takes a bit of practice to figure out where and how much to adjust, but the basic rules of hairspring adjusting still apply. Adjustment in the flat is done 180 degrees from maximum error, in the round, 90 degrees. When checking the flat in the caliper, you have to focus on the first 4-5 coils, as the rest are influenced by the weight of the stud and will naturally look low. When all good, those first few coils will look distinctly flat viewed from the side, and the whole spring will look like one of the optical illusion spirals as the balance slowly spins (viewed from above). The effect on timing from a spring out of true at the collet can vary from almost unnoticeable to rather extreme. I was just working on a new-build, first time on the timing machine. I saw there was a little truing needed at the collet, but ran a cycle anyway. In my case, the verticals were slow compared to the horizontal, with an apparent poise error equaling 60s. I trued it at the collet, and the difference in both h/v and the "poise error" were cut in half. Another reason not to chase dynamic poise if everything isn't as perfect as possible. The effect of centering at the collet is used by good regleurs sometimes by introducing an error. Sometimes you find the verticals just want to run slow, with regulator pins adjusted perfectly etc. Like, perfect poise, but 15s slower than horizontal. Sometimes throwing the centering out at the collet by say half a spring thickness can resolve this. It is pretty much unnoticeable visually. Also, you have to guess which way to "throw it out", haha. A Levin hairspring truing caliper and a Swiss simple caliper that works well too
    4 points
  5. whenever I have timing problems at work usually the first thing I look at is the plot like this and the oscilloscope. I use it to explain why I'm having timing problems. But based on my past knowledge of you and a timing machine I would throw all of this away because you're going to lose your mind and become obsessed about a problem that you may or may not ever be able to fix or a problem doesn't actually exist sort of. yes one of the problems with the watch is a set of gears that in order to produce absolutely linear perfect power ideally shouldn't even be gears at all as gears will always produce pulsations of power. Then if everything isn't exactly perfect like the manufacturing the wheels are slightly out around pivots that don't fit absolutely perfectly or even if somebody furnishes the pivots and are slightly too small soup of flopping around in the whole not by very much conceivably will cause power surges as the tiny bit of the wheels moving around binding up with the gear train. Watches are really interesting things in that the average out a lot of their problems. Timing machines though will show all of these problems that may or may not really be a problem. For instance with this watch does it actually keep time with the hands on? I have a interesting book recommendation is that expensive book I have a video of a book review. It has a nice job of reviewing it it's not a perfect book but it sometimes has its moments. Like for instance there's a section on gears. then it even is a section on the faults of gearing fortunately that's only a couple of pages I could probably scanned that in. Where I'm going with this is watches are mechanical devices gear trains produce power fluctuations watches will still keep really good time with power fluctuations up to a certain points. Be careful not to get obsessed about timing machines software or if you think your first experience with a timing machine was a nightmare this will send you straight to the psychiatric ward. Understand why you're using the software and why you're looking at it. it's amazing how a few words can instantaneously cause of flashback to something in the past which I found to be a pain in the ass. One of my friends had centered his hairspring exactly as you describe and had it perfectly centered exactly as you described. But physically centering without the balance wheel in this case with the Hamilton 992 result of the hairspring that was not flat and not right at all with the over coil. I spent hours of time analyzing trying to figure out where he bent looking at another watch to put the hairspring back right because of what I perceive a stupid method of doing things. The preferred centering is with the balance wheel and hairspring together. Exactly what is described in the first quote above. it's one of the objections I have when people have hairspring issues and everyone says take the balance out of the watch hairspring issues with balance wheels typically occur in the watch you have to be able to see the problem in the watch you don't always have to fix it in the watch but you have to see the problem in the watch balance wheels out of the watch a lot of times a look really nice but not in the watch and collets perfectly centered aren't actually centered at all necessarily.
    4 points
  6. Wheels are generally rivetted to the pinions, and disassembly would ruin them. Some are friction fit, but again, disassembly would likely lead to a weaker union after reassembly. Best to clean them assembled.
    4 points
  7. I believe it is a spacer of sorts, it would keep the case-back say or anything from touching or downward pressure and altering the center wheel pivot and/or the regulator since it is also raised, just protection I guess, I have seen this on old Swiss and American movements...
    4 points
  8. There is a tool for this, if you can find one. It's called an Obama Jewel Hole Gauge. It consists of a finely tapered pin which you push into the hole as far as it will go. The pin then pushes back into the body of the instrument until the jewel is against the tip. The hole diameter can then be read off the scale in 0.01mm increments down to 0.05mm. If you could find a suitably fine tapered pin there's no reason why you couldn't improvise by marking where the jewel sits on the taper and then measuring it with a micrometer. In practice though if you are replacing a jewel you could always just measure the pivot that is going to run in it.
    3 points
  9. This seems to be complicated case... We have many variables here and we need to exclude some of them to make some progress. We have plots that show amplitude variations, but we don't know if this variations are significant, as they can be 'amplified' or 'smoothed' by the software. So, some observation of the amplitude by eye will be of help. Then, if we really have not isochronical work, then the main reason for this would be the hairspring being not 'linear'. And not linear may be sometimes not only because 'touching', but because bad hairsping material structure. Some of the advanced watchmakers claim that repairing badly bent hairspring is useless, because this springs will never be isochronic again. Well, my own observations are that such thing happens, but not in all the cases and it depends on the case if the result is acceptable or not. I will not suppose here that this spring has been repaired, but it has some strange behavior watching at it's work. It will be good if it is possible to test the movement with another balance or thest the balance on another movement...
    3 points
  10. Thanks guys. It's a Seawolf 10ATM pre spring bezel. The case knife stressed me a bit, but eventually got it off and cleaned - nearly seventy years of grime. Thanks. Cheers John
    3 points
  11. Exactly. This is a pic of the hairspring I'm working on. My horizontal v vertical rates are all over the place. There is no discernible terminal curve. My problem is that the outer coil is (possibly) hitting the regulator pin. It's hard to tell but it looks to be getting very close. Also getting close to the stud, which could be @VWatchie's problem. You can see that I need to adjust the inner coil to centre the collet. That will hopefully solve the problem. But then I'll take the spring off and attach it to the cock to see how it looks. I don't know if it's causing your problem @VWatchie, but I would say your inner coil looks like this
    3 points
  12. Hello all, just to give you a final conclusion to this topic: I got myself a new hour wheel and changed it without servicing the whole watch. Unfortunately, this problem persisted and I assumed that maybe some debris from the damaged hour wheel continued to cause issues. So I did a full service. Now it runs perfectly. Quite impressively actually: average of 0sec/day across 5 positions at full wind AND after 24h -- with a delta of only 4seconds). Thanks everyone for helping me pinpoint the problem. My friend is very happy now.
    3 points
  13. Well, I've done it. completed my first service on a pin movement. It was a non runner when I purchased it. When doing the service I found the reason. Two items on the crown wheel stopping rotation. Removed and cleaned. Only a cheap watch, but I wanted to try my skill. Pin are more difficult than jewelled watches, in my opinion. Running well. Disassembly 1 hr. Cleaning 1/2 hr. Assembly 1 1/2 hrs. Followed members instructions. Photograph each removal and watch in reverse for assembly. Happy bunny. thank you to all. Ross
    3 points
  14. I think you are referring to these. You can find them from Cousins, they are called countersink cutters.
    3 points
  15. The first thing I'd do is fix that terminal curve, so you have the same gap all along it. It must be distorting the hairspring when mounted. - bringing the outer coil too close to the stud. Possibly hitting it at higher amplitude. Oddly enough, this seems to be the same problem I'm having at the moment - giving plots very similar to yours. Hairspring re-shaping time. It's an easy fix for you, no need to remove the spring. Then re-assess.
    3 points
  16. Happy St. Paddy's day! My Alpina Heritage Pilot for the obligatory green!
    3 points
  17. There's a section in "The Chicago School of Watchmaking" on centring the collett. chicago lesson 19.PDF
    3 points
  18. one of the problems with multipage discussions is that it makes it hard to go back and reread everything so let's review the process? Did you measure the old staff and the new staff to verify that they're the exact same size? Then riveting despite the fact all the images show one round punch I usually use several of them. In other words I will start with the smallest one I can get start two spread the rivet then I'll do another one slightly larger to keep spreading the rivet or basically whatever it takes. Followed up with a flat punch to just flatten the whole thing out hopefully. The last watch I did didn't flatten out as well as I liked but is held nice and tight so worked fine. actually ended up with a small pile of staking set punches on the bench when doing it despite the fact the photos only show one magical punch I seldom find that works the way it shows in the picture. interesting method not sure I've ever seen it in any book and you really don't one of even begin to grasp what anyone understanding watch repair would think about this method. So if you solder a balance staff PN in a future watchmaker has to replace it is that going to be an issue? if you have a lathe visually the look really nice to impress your friends but they do have purposes in watch repair. Then why don't you start practicing with it and some scrap balance wheels I know hobbyist never practice it takes away the fun but still find some scrap balance wheels look on eBay practice cutting the hubs off see if you like that method. Personally I never did but to each his own. then find some metal start turning it on the lathe maybe make a balance staff a really big balance staff. Watch repair is all about practicing.
    3 points
  19. See, the hairspring has a imaginable center. It doesn't exist as some of the spring has been cut to make room for the collet, but even when manufactired, the spring didn't go to it's center. The idea of centering is to adjust the collet position so the collet hole center coincides with the hairspring center. Nothing to do with the spring on the bridge and the collet above the stone. This is done by bending the internal spring coil near the place where it is pinned or attached to the collet. You can imagine the well centered spring as a groove of vinyl record. If the record is centered on the platter, then the arm moves gradually and only to the center when the record plays. If the record has big center hole (45 RPM one) and it is placed not centric on the platter, then the arm constantly moves in/out. Such is the behavior of not centered spring. The centering of the spring to the collet is usually well described in the books where the attaching and pinning the spring to the collet is described. And yes, I mean the spring can touch the collet and this can 'short' the entire internal coil if the spring is not well centered to the collet. Also, not centered to the collet spring brings bad poising to the balance.
    3 points
  20. a very interesting timepiece inside. Fascinating to watch unfortunately usually very expensive. Then if you have an accident it's usually very expensive to repair. For those not familiar with what it looks like inside here's a short video
    3 points
  21. Actually, the traces are not so erratic, they are periodic. And the periode is something about 4-5 min as I see. In the watchmakers text books, there is a head for timefrapher trace diagnostic, and there one usually finds the short simple answer that the problem is the wheel that turns with the same period. Well, as H. Mencken says, to every complicated problem, a solution will be found - simple, clear and...wrong. The tings that change periodically in the watch movement are more than entire turns of wheels. For ehample, if the 2nd wheel pinion has 12 leafs, 60/12=5 min, so for 5 min the second wheel moves exactly 1 pinion leaf ahead. This is for movements with 2nd wheel in the center and with 12 leaf pinion, which is not the case here, but... Then, periodical rate changes are due preiodical amplitude changes due periodical torque changes, but this actially means that the escapement is not isochronic, so the rate strongly depends on torque. So, if in the first time, the movement is isochronic, then the rate will not so strongly depend on torque and thus on wheel radial trueing or teeth meshing problems. This are only theoretical thoughts. Now, what You have: In the video what i see makes me think that the hairspring is not well centered to the collet. This may lead not only to great periodical changing of studd-hairspring distance and touching when big amplitude, but in the same manner - to touching the hairspring inside coil to the collet too, which also leads to erratic but connected with amplitude rate changes. Then, the other thing is that decrease of amplitude leads to decrease in rate. In such case, the normal thing to do is to close the distance between regulator pins, not to open it more. But it is after cleaning the problem with hairspring center, if it exists. By the way, hairspring off-center leads to 'balance not poised' behavior, is there such thing? Reduce the amplitude by releasing the mainspring and see if the rate/amplitude will get less erratic and if there are ' bad poise' traces ih vertical positions
    3 points
  22. I'd never heard of a linear bumper before this. I love all the weird ways people have come up with to solve these problems.
    3 points
  23. For me, a bit of a "kinky" side step; two partially broken vintage quartz watches no less ! They do run and the chronograph functions do work, but, from both, the small chronograph seconds recorder (1/10 sec) doesn't reset and they don't run I've found some instructions on how to reset the small seconds recorder, but it doesn't say whether the recorder hand should run, or not, after a battery change; "Resetting the Chronograph to Zero: If your chronograph and 1/10 seconds subdial hand are not aligned after a battery change, do not worry as this is common and easily fixed. Simply make sure the crown is in normal position (pressed in against the case), the push Button C (bottom left) twice. The second hand will move, press C again. Pull out the crown to time setting mode. Now you can adjust the two misaligned hands: Button A will advance the central second hand forward, Button B will advance the 1/10 second hand forward. Push the crown back in." So, since both of them do have the same problem, it could be simple and the seller didn't know how to reset, or there could be more to it? Is it a coincidence that both movements do run (cal. 3510 + cal 3530) and do have the same problem ?? They added thrill is that these Citizen / Miyota 3510 movements (12 jewels ! ) are discontinued and apparently (very) hard to get (??). Perhaps one of those: "There is a thin line between a Hero and a Zero" Anyhow, without further ado here some pictures of what should be in the post;
    3 points
  24. For years, since I didn't know how much further I would take "watch-repair", I've been "scrubbing" my watch parts in Zippo lighter fluid........ Recently I decided to "up" my cleaning game. Bought a 2nd hand Elma S15H ultra-sonic and the "official" chemicals (in my case Elma WF pro (cleaning), Elma Suprol (rinse) and Isopropyl alcohol (IPA). That made a world of difference ! So, if you are serious in continuing this hobby, fed up scrubbing with lighter fluid and want to "up" your cleaning game to near professional levels; get the decent stuff
    3 points
  25. Yes you can. You have to thin the metal just in front of where the two halves of the tweezer are spot welded. About 2-3 cm length. The amount to grind off will be by trial and error and personal preference. I have some that are very light and some that are heavy.
    3 points
  26. I have successfully completed my first attempt at electro-plating. I have a few cases that were prepped by stripping the old plating and fully polishing (which took ages doing by hand). About 2 weeks ago I bought a book on the subject of electro-plating. I read the book cover to cover a few times (it was a very small book), and I thought I had a pretty good understanding of the process of electro-cleaning, surface activation, and the application of bright nickel plating. I also received some incredible help from a member of this forum who provided me with some info and tips that they've learned throughout their time in plating. I'm happy to say that my first try at this wasn't a total failure! Here are the results just after the final rinse. I wanted to plate about 20 microns on the case. My thought was that it would give me a little cushion to smooth out some of the defects. Thankfully the defects were actually quite minor. There was a small section where the plating looked to have a slightly rough surface. I believe this occurred when I was adjusting the position of the case in the tank. I bumped the anode and it came into contact with the case for several seconds. Everything else turned out quite nicely, with the exception of that rough patch. About 1 minute on a soft cotton buff with some white Dialux smoothed it out beautifully. I'm really pleased with the results!
    2 points
  27. Voltage on the probes is no constant: it depends on the connected resistor. In fact they output a current, no voltage. Important: voltage across the coil under test must be lower than about 1 V, else the circuit can spoil the result. Therefore special watch testers. The lower the test result compared to full range, the lower the voltage on the resistor/coil under test. If you test a separated coil, no Fluke or other meter can damage your coil. Fran
    2 points
  28. I do hand tool woodworking (luthiery, furniture, etc.). Requires have an incredibly sharp blade. I forget what grit my finest diamond hone is, but I finish with lapping compound on a steel backed strop. There exists a grade of hone called "surgical". I don't know if it was a medical standard at one point, still is, or if it was just as fine as could be had at some point in time, but I go way past that. Done correctly, you have no need for sand paper or any other abrasives. You get a glass smooth finish right off the blade with no fine dust to worry about. The trick to cutting pithwood is a really sharp blade, and kinda roll it on the table top. That'll get you one clean side, because the bevel of the blade will slightly crush the other side. Still usable, just not as pretty. Sounds like the commercial guys can get both sides clean, which would be nice. You might be able to get away with a fresh razor blade, and that would probably get you two OK faces.
    2 points
  29. Sorry, been busy with the day job. Or rather, the hunt for one.
    2 points
  30. Ali Baba's movement fits and works - I managed to successfully disassemble and reassemble the watch (thanks to some youtube tutorials). The date numerals are oriented sideways (90 degrees rotated from the correct orientation) on the replacement movement, but I can ignore that. They were almost impossible to see anyway, so that "feature" doesn't really affect the appearance. I was afraid I might mangle the hands or damage the dial face, but I managed to avoid that. Thanks for your replies, everyone. I don't know if I'll end up fixing any more quartz watches, but it's nice to know I probably can if I need to. Peace to you all.
    2 points
  31. One thing to note Ross when ordering a crown. I have a Smiths Everest and Imperial - neither have pendant tubes, so I needed 'dustproof crowns' https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/dustproof-watch-crowns The section around the threaded tube is sprung loaded to form a seal against the case. I cannot see from the pics whether yours has a pendant tube. This is what I fitted to my gold plated case I wasn't aware of the other expedition watches. But I'm on the look out now More watches to look out for. BTW there's a 25J Everest AUTOMATIC for sale on ebay.
    2 points
  32. The grail of Smiths watch collectors imo and I'm sure in anyone else's would be Hillary's watch now in a museum never to be owned by anyone. Next in line would be any of the other 13 that were issued to the first Everest climbers whose party reached the summit. Unlikely these would come up for sale, i dont know if their whereabouts are known. Then we have the 27 Greenland issues, o e of which is on your bench ( I'mstill extremely jealous ). Take a moment to read the link i posted earlier. Ps. The crown does not match the crown issued. Who was it originally given to if you dont mind me asking.
    2 points
  33. They can work, but you can see how extreme the Levin is in removing the maximum material on the caliper above the spring to allow proper viewing. The Swiss one has more material but works- though it is less handy than the Levin.
    2 points
  34. maybe i got the brand name a bit wrong , felicia ? . I guess you could say i blew it
    2 points
  35. Silly me, been shopping for a Bergeon pinion polisher tool.
    2 points
  36. that and a watch, sounds like a good holiday to me
    2 points
  37. Do not heat the the bearings. The heat can affect the temper of the bearing steel and also melt the packing grease inside the bearings. The motor shaft needs to be clean and rust free. Sandpaper and steel wool would do an adequate job. You will need a pipe that fits over the shaft loosely to tap the new bearings into the bearing seat. Watch the video below for a clearer explanation.
    2 points
  38. Unless you need to cut a new wheel or pinon never take it apart. Diamantine powder with a little oil is good for polishing steel.
    2 points
  39. Watch movements are very complex and inter-related mechanisms. If a tooth is bad, then the periodicity of a problem can simply be related to the time taken for one revolution of that wheel. However, if two interacting wheels have slightly bent pivots, worn jewels or are otherwise less then perfectly centered, it can theoretically be more complex. There can be some points where those problems would add together to bog down the movement, but other times where they could cancel each other out and give better performance. As they rotate at different speeds, those points of deflection would come and go and set up a resonance (for lack of a better term) that would repeatedly occur with a timing different than either of their rotation rates but related to their tooth ratio. Not sure that this would be relevant to your problem, but it seems to me that an issue that occurs somewhat rhythmically over the course of many minutes would be more related to the wheel train than a hairspring problem. But then again, my experience with hairspring manipulation rounds to zero, so you should listen to others!
    2 points
  40. From experience, no thoughts: friction here can eat much power. It is a kind of hidden fault. Test: without power the pallet must fall from one side to the other by its own weight. Frank
    2 points
  41. This is simple. Make 50 full turns then to be absolutelly sure that the bridle has began to slip. Actually, 6 full turns of ratchet wheel when winding is enough. Now, the spring should be fully wound, at least as much as the bridle resistence alows. Then, release the spring and count the ratchet wheel turns. If they are 6, then the spring has been fully wound. If they are 2 or so, then the briddle slipps earlyer than full wind.
    2 points
  42. the unfortunate problem of most electronic things are visually they can look outstanding and no longer be functional at all. Which is why you need a electronic test equipment to verify that they still have whatever electrical properties there supposed to have.
    2 points
  43. This is it. I've seen it on other calibers (jlc in particular). Back in the day casebacks could be very thin, and this guards against influence on the movement.
    2 points
  44. I've been fiddling with watches for about 8 years. We all get a bit over confident, then put in our place with a movement we cannot figure out. It happens to us all. I'm just trying to sort out a Smiths with a similar oscillating trace. There seems to be a repeating pattern every 4-5 mins. Third wheel? Might be worth checking the teeth. There's a known problem on some ETA movements (I've mentioned it before) - I think this might be one. The 'intermediate wheel (I think it's called) has too much end play, allowing it to touch the bottom of the barrel, and give readings like yours. Kalle (Chronoglide) has described it as a design fault. I always check on ETA movements, and often have to reduce the end-shake
    2 points
  45. I use water based cleaners with ammonia for clocks but I prefer water free cleaners for watches. Do a "foil test' in your ultrasonic cleaner to see if the unit is working properly.
    2 points
  46. their minor variations to this. Like for instance take a tiny piece of Rodico on the pivot of the staff hold the balance wheel an attempt to rotate the staff with your pin vice the pin vice is supposed to slip because yes the rivet really does have to be very secure if it rotates you'll see whatever you stuck on the end rotate.
    2 points
  47. You should remove the roller and continue riveting the staff. Use pin wice to hold the staff where the hairspring seat and test if the rim can be easuly turned.
    2 points
  48. The 99 cal was in the Ebel ATP and a black face dial model was made though the one you have isn't recognised. The case is not of the usual military style which would look heavier,nor the hands but these may have been changed at some time in its life and there are always exceptions to expected designs. The caseback may shed more light with markings and militaries are generally of a screwback with good water resistance of the time.
    2 points
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