Cleaning Fluids

[oldhippy]

You can clean modern clock movements in an ultrasonic. Never ever, clean antique valuable clocks in such things they can cause irreparable damage.   

[AndyHull]

I hate to be pedantic, but if it says 37Hz it 'aint ultrasonic. You need to be careful. There are some really cheap "dental ultrasonic" cleaners on ebay that are not remotely ultrasonic, since they use a small vibrating 3V motor. They are at best agitators. They may well vibrate at 37Hz for all I know. The point is ultrasonic is high frequency sound, and it's frequency is measured in killo hertz so they would be say 37kHz or 40kHz or whatever. Anything typically between 20kHz and 250kHz would be accurately described as ultrasonic.

The other thing you need to be aware of is the output power. As has previously been stated, the better units put out more ultrasonic energy, and in some cases this means they have more than one transducer (the transducer is in effect a loudspeaker that operates in the kHz range, and pumps out the ultrasound. There is a good description here -> http://tmasc.com/qa process.htm

If a small ultrasound cleaning unit states an output power of 500 Watts or more, this is probably the power of the heater, rather than the ultrasoinc transducer. Typical small ultrasoinc sounders are under 100 Watts

If you want to see someone tearing down a slightly larger workshop cleaner (clock sized rather than watch sized, and way bigger than the one I have, mine only has two transducers), take a look at this ->

The other thing to be aware of is that often these units include a heater. High sound output power and the ability to heat the cleaning medium to near boiling point may not be necessary in a small unit, and in fact may be undesirable when cleaning very delicate parts.

If you are looking for a relatively cheap "basket" to keep the parts in, you could try using some of the small  mesh ball loose leaf infusers .

This sort of thing...

 

A quick search of ebay or amazon will bring up lots of them, and they are relatively cheap.

I've not pressed my little ultrasonic cleaner in to service on watch parts yet, but I have cleaned a few items like inkjet print heads, switches, electronic components,  small circuit boards and so forth. Its not been used in a while ,so  I will need to locate it in the attic first.

Other more knowledgeable individuals will need to chime in with suitable cleaning agents for watch parts, I would not know what is suitable. Some watch parts however may rely on shellac, which is soluble in some alcohols, so take care with what you use. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by AndyHull

[clockboy]

Perhaps you are being a bit pedantic. The ultrasonic machine I was referring too was the Elma "P' Line (Industrial use) Multi-Frequency & digital. Starting price £775. 

[AndyHull]

26 minutes ago, clockboy said:

Perhaps you are being a bit pedantic. The ultrasonic machine I was referring too was the Elma "P' Line (Industrial use) Multi-Frequency & digital. Starting price £775. 

Just call me Mr Pedant from now on.
The little cleaner I have is an ebay China special, they come in about £50 new, but I picked up mine "spares or repair" for about a tenner a few years back. It needed a new power switch and a fuse and it was good to go. It looks similar to this, but without the heater, and with some other generic Chinese brand name.

What I will say is that the quality of construction of the Chinese ones is reflected in the price. It is stainless steel, and  it certainly works for the infrequent use I subject it to, and does actually use a couple of fairly robust looking genuine ultrasonic piezo transducers.  However the circuit boards are single sided through hole cheapest of the cheap FR4 ish material, with lots of noname brand capacitors etc. and as I said I had to replace the mains switch because it had crapped out, and the push buttons for the timer don't inspire confidence.  

If I were doing this commercially I would go for quality, but for occasional hobby use it is fine.

[phydaux]

1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

Some watch parts however may rely on shellac, which is soluble in some alcohols

I did not know that, although I did know that the impulse jewel was held on to the balance wheel by shellac.

[AndyHull]

Well here is another useless fact you may not be aware of in that case.. wood working French polish consists of shellac dissolved in denatured alcohol aka methylated spirits.

I suspect the shellac glue used to fix the impulse jewel is formulated somewhat similarly, but I'll let the experts chime in on that one.

Shellac is a very traditional natural substance, which has been used since well before the invention of modern plastics  for bonding things where bond strength doesn't need to be too high, but the glue needs to take up very little volume and where it may be necessary to remove and re-fit the items being bonded.  Eighteenth century superglue if you will.

[anilv]

On 11/8/2018 at 7:19 AM, phydaux said:

I did not know that, although I did know that the impulse jewel was held on to the balance wheel by shellac.

Pallet jewels as well.

 

[margolisd]

I use a couple of these. One for clean and the other for rinse...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/James-Products-Ultrasonic-Jewellery-Spectacle/dp/B00N4XB5YU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1541761920&sr=8-4&keywords=ultrasonic+cleaner

I use this cleaning solution:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-wf-pro-cleaner

And this for rinse:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/elma-suprol-rinse

For pallet fork and balance wheel I use Bergeon one-dip to avoid damaging the shellac.

These baskets are great for small parts:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01819HN24/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So far I've had really good results even on some very dirty old watches.

[Vacherin]

I wondered how effective the old 1960s/70s cleaning machines are compared to low end dual transducer chinese items Andy Hull mentions?

I was offered a larger Elmar Vacmatic. Like a small cupboard on 4 castors with 4 jars in the bottom with pipes going in! Are these just museum items nowadays? Here is a picture of a smaller table top machine. This is the sort of thing.

 

 

[oldhippy]

When I retired, I had an old National like this and this L & R automatic, which was the bee’s knees.  

[phydaux]

5 hours ago, margolisd said:

.

These baskets are great for small parts:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01819HN24/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

What about the rest of the parts?  Will everything from a, say, disassembled 6498 movement fir in those baskets, or will I also meed something bigger?

[margolisd]

The mainplate and bridges can just sit in the large plastic basket the cleaner comes with. All the small parts can fit in two or three of the small metal baskets I linked to

[AndyHull]

Googling the Hazmat sheet for the Elma Luxury cleaner, etc, I noticed that the Bergeon 2552 One Dip appears to contain 99% tetrachlorethane

https://www.scribd.com/document/61062721/Bergeon-2552-One-Dip-899-F0668

Take care with that, and avoid contact with your skin, eyes etc.

Back in the distant past, we used to use it a lot of that in the workshop to clean printer parts and other computer bits. Later we moved to isopropanol, which is slightly less hazardous (but not suitable for contact with shellac, and probably much more flammable).

Tetrachloroethane can be pretty nasty stuff, and a potential carcinogen. Pay close attention to the safety warnings, and use in a well ventilated area.

Interestingly one of the things I experimented with initially on the first watch I cleaned recently was an old can of Ambersol electrical safety cleaner, which appears (from the familiar smell) to also contain tetrachlorethane. 

It is a very potent de-greaser. Iit will remove the grease from you skin, and can easily penetrate the skin to potentially enter the bloodstream, so use gloves and eye protection, don't breath the fumes, and remember to re-lubricate anything that has come in to contact with it. 

The other cleaners mentioned are mainly detergents and simpler hydrocarbons (so perhaps turps substitute or lighter fluid and simple washing up liquid might work, not that I would recommend experimenting, unless you are particularly curios). Their main hazard appears to be their flammability. 

[margolisd]

Wow I had no idea one-dip was that dangerous. Doing a bit of research on tetrachloroethane confirms it. This is from an ATSDR Public Health Statement:

"An increase in liver tumors was observed in mice following oral exposure.

The EPA determined that 1,1,2,2-tetrachloroethane is a possible human carcinogen. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) determined that 1,1,2,2-tetrachloroethane is not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity."

I think I might get rid of mine. Nasty stuff indeed.

[AndyHull]

38 minutes ago, margolisd said:

Wow I had no idea one-dip was that dangerous. Doing a bit of research on tetrachloroethane confirms it. This is from an ATSDR Public Health Statement:

"An increase in liver tumors was observed in mice following oral exposure.

The EPA determined that 1,1,2,2-tetrachloroethane is a possible human carcinogen. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) determined that 1,1,2,2-tetrachloroethane is not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity."

I think I might get rid of mine. Nasty stuff indeed.

I'm not sure getting rid is necessary, but avoiding exposure to it is advisable.

Beer is a liver carcinogen, tetrachloroethane likewise.

Just treat it with respect, and as I said, avoid contact with skin, eyes and by inhalation as much as possible. Work in a well ventilated area, wear suitable gloves and eye protection and you should be fine.

As I said, I used it for years, for cleaning computer and printer parts in the  workshop in the eighties and nineties and to the best of my knowledge, my liver is still fully functional (although I suspect exposure to beer would be a more likely vector for damage if it is not ).

Edited November 11, 2018 by AndyHull

[watchweasol]

Hi Andy  Likewise I used it for the same purpose. we has a self consensing bath for cleaning circuit pcbs in the factory I like you used it by hand.  I myself use a mixture of citit bang , ammonia, and a drop of detergent in the ultrasonic , used in a well ventilated area (not the kitchen) and constantly check the progress of the cleaning. Too long exposure removes the lacquer from the plates . Small jobs can be cleaned with Carburettor  cleaner ( good for balances no deposits left).

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

I never liked one-dip. I always used Ronsonol lighter fluid. It doesn’t harm anything in a watch and it is shellac friendly.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

I never liked one-dip. I always used Ronsonol lighter fluid. It doesn’t harm anything in a watch and it is shellac friendly.

 

Hi, I got zippo lighter fluid and am testing , short term soaks seem alright, soaked over night or longer seem to have paled the co!or as though have chemically  reacted with chrome plating, Dose Ronson act the same, something to be concerned about?

[oldhippy]

I never found Ronsonol to turn a different colour. Only when it got dirty.

[phydaux]

On 11/10/2018 at 4:17 PM, AndyHull said:

Bergeon 2552 One Dip appears to contain 99% tetrachlorethane...  Back in the distant past, we used to use it a lot of that in the workshop to clean printer parts and other computer bits.

Was that the stuff where, if you got one drop of it on your clothes or on the carpet, then it would just stink FOREVER?  As in to make the stink go away you had to just take out a knife and cut a square out of the carpet where the drop fell?  Or just throw your jacket away because it would never stop smelling like chemicals?

[phydaux]

One time I was cleaning a customer's ink jet printer and I asked my boss for some alcohol to clean it with.  He handed me some foaming spray cleaner in a can, said to use that.  I sprayed it on the plastic printer parts, and watched in horror as the plastic melted before my eyes.

[AndyHull]

3 minutes ago, phydaux said:

Was that the stuff where, if you got one drop of it on your clothes or on the carpet, then it would just stink FOREVER?  As in to make the stink go away you had to just take out a knife and cut a square out of the carpet where the drop fell?  Or just throw your jacket away because it would never stop smelling like chemicals?

Not that I remember, no. It was far too volatile for that.

[Wdc]

Does anyone have experience or knowledge if 100% Lacquer Thinner will hurt watch parts as part of a cleaning routine? Excluding of course plastic parts or the pallet fork.

I have been using it for years a a strong solvent for tough cleaning and I know it will not hurt metal, ferrous or non-ferrous but I am not sure about the synthetic jewels.

I have been using the following regiment, right or wrong.

10min - 100% Lacquer Thinner soak (cut grease & grime

30 mins – ultrasonic in water 4-5 cups, dish detergent 2TBS, Ammonia 1 cup

5 mins -  91% alcohol rinse

 

Reason I ask is I am thinking to skip step 2 water, ammonia and add 100% Lacquer Thinner into my stainless ultrasonic cleaner.

 

So how many gasp & shrieks do I hear out there?

[oldhippy]

Why don’t you use the proper cleaner and rinse? That is why they are available, using those you know very fell nothing will come to harm.  All suppliers stock them.  

[Nucejoe]

Hi Wdc.

Many base metals react chemically with thinners. Some thinners are just kerosene, no harm, however,  Various thinners of different chemical base and strength are out there, and with short soak time you may not observe the damage to the base metal but it is there, the fluid penetrates through pores of gold or nickle plating.

I test the long term soak with junk pieces, to find the answers for me, since not all brands are available to me, If available to you, You already got best advice from OH.

Regards joe.