Cleaning Fluids

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, AlexanderToerzs said:

Since lighter fluid is exactly what is refered to as white spirit in the UK, naphta in the US and benzine by de Carle I would grant it "horological product status" through the back door so to speak  Cheers Alex.

Actually if you look at the material safety sheet it is Light Hydrotreated Distillate 70% by weight and Hydrotreated Light Naphtha 30% by weight.

 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, GregG said:

The cleaning method must be not just work setup friendly, but also girlfriend-friendly. XD  Somehow I don't think she'll be too keen on having me store jars of lighter fluid around the apartment.  And the cleaner I use is not ammonia based so I don't worry about the safety of the procedure on the watch parts.  I've done about a dozen watches with this stuff (https://zep2.zep.com/product/zepcommercial/heavy-duty-citrus-degreaser),

Having just now looked at the material safety sheet for your cleaner I recommend you don't read it if you think ammonia is bad for your health. Then you have to keep us up-to-date on how well this works.

[GregG]

25 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Having just now looked at the material safety sheet for your cleaner I recommend you don't read it if you think ammonia is bad for your health. Then you have to keep us up-to-date on how well this works.

To be fair, I never said ammonia is bad for your health XD

Correct me if I'm wrong, but checking the SDS, the only thing listed as a potential hazard is the fragrance, which falls under an allergen.

Even then, I searched for each ingredient manually.  Sodium hydroxide is possibly a hazard if touched, and I couldn't find a lot of information on Trisodium NTA, but otherwise, the remainder of the ingredients I couldn't find anything significantly hazardous.  Some of the ingredients are used in cosmetics and as food additives.

[jdm]

12 hours ago, AlexanderToerzs said:

Since lighter fluid is exactly what is refered to as white spirit in the UK, naphta in the US and benzine by de Carle I would grant it "horological product status" through the back door so to speak.

I think you have missed the ample discussion we had already in this same topic. I will summarize again the key facts to help anyone reading to make his informed choice.

• The scientific name of the "petrol based product with many names" is Petroleoum Ether https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_ether and has guaranteed purity and no additives.
• The products you can buy at the hardware store are for general cleaning, or burning , etc. Again, no guaranteed purity.
• Lighter fuel may look the same to the layman but chemical differences aside I don't think the manufacturer goes to great lengths to filter it. But for sure they add some fragrance to it. In the end it's formulated to burn, not to clean. It also cost much more than the above in quantity, and is never recommended by books or washing machine makers.

Buying based on ease of availability why not use engine fuel then - OOPS that's recommended against also. In the end this old book from the beginning of 1900 is always right.

 

[LittleWatchShop]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It depends on which cleaning fluid he's using. You can get non-ammonia watch cleaning products that it probably wouldn't matter. No matter what if it has ammonia do get a beautiful cleaning effect but no more than about 4 to 5 minutes is the most most the time you really don't need that anyway.

I watched the video again.  Cannot find Quadralene which is the solution he appears to use.  I will cut my time back to 4 minutes.

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I watched the video again.  Cannot find Quadralene which is the solution he appears to use.  I will cut my time back to 4 minutes.

Thanks to house keeping our discussion got fragmented. Somewhere else is a discussion on baskets and it was a comment made of brass being bad because the ammonia is bad for it. As we now were fragmented discussion I'm going to fragmented by asking the same question here

for everyone using any brass baskets anything with brass that you used for cleaning in the watch solution look at it and see if it looks like it's etched or pitted or any signs of chemical damage.

I was looking at my brass baskets they look fine.

So here's the problem we can find examples of at least I know of examples of if you leave it too long in the cleaning solution with ammonia at some point in time it goes past cleaning and it starts to etch or break down the copper dissolve it out of the brass basically it's a bad at some point in time. It appears to be as a guess looking at my cleaning baskets if the exposure is 1001 minute exposures versus 1000 minutes in the fluid it looks like he'll survive short exposures lots of them. It's only the long-term exposure that's a problem.

The reason why I was using four minutes is because one of the schools I was at had taped the machine over at four minutes. So in a classroom situation the machine was being run every single day continuously without harming the watch plates at least that we were aware of. Then I'd think one of the cleaning fluids actually had a time recommendation but I can't remember which one.

I guess the easy way to tell is if you clean for four minutes and everything is nice and clean it's fine if it needs longer cleaning time you could increase cents or just make sure you precleaned really good. In other words the cleaning fluid is not going to break free and clean up hardened lubrication in the jewels peg wood would be good.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, GregG said:

To be fair, I never said ammonia is bad for your health XD

It's usually what everyone complains about is the smell of Ammonia.

13 hours ago, GregG said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but checking the SDS, the only thing listed as a potential hazard is the fragrance, which falls under an allergen.

Are we looking at the same safety sheet?

[LittleWatchShop]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It's usually what everyone complains about is the smell of Ammonia.

My wife gave a mild complaint about the smell.

BTW, L&R Rinse #3 bottle says rinsing for 3-5 minutes.  The cleaning bottle does not give guidance regarding time.

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

L&R Rinse #3 bottle says rinsing for 3-5 minutes

Interesting about the rinse as I usually didn't worry about that.

Look at cousins I found the spec sheet for elma wf pro There recommending anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes.

 

[GregG]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It's usually what everyone complains about is the smell of Ammonia.

Are we looking at the same safety sheet?

My mistake, I was checking the ingredient list.  There is the SDS, which is what you have posted.

[jdrichard]

Way too much information:). I clean by hand using lighter fluid

I use the ultrasonic cleaner for the case but may start cleaning parts in it. Now I am really not sure what cleaning solution to use, however, it appears that putting parts in a glass jar in the Ultrasonic cleaner is the best option.

[jdm]

31 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

I clean by hand using lighter fluidI

Worth to note once again that  lighter fluid is not an horological product.

• Does not have guaranteed purity
• Has additives specific to it's intended use, which is to burn, not to clean.
• It is never recommended by any manufacturer or watchmaking book.
• It is more expensive, per quantity, than a professional petrol-bases solution (petroleum ether)

[oldhippy]

22 minutes ago, jdm said:

Worth to note once again that  lighter fluid is not an horological product.

• Does not have guaranteed purity
• Has additives specific to it's intended use, which is to burn, not to clean.
• It is never recommended by any manufacturer or watchmaking book.
• It is more expensive, per quantity, than a professional petrol-bases solution (petroleum ether)

No matter what you think about Ronsonol lighter fluid there is nothing in it that can harm watch parts. It is  shellac friendly. I used it all the time as a watchmaker which in my time in horology came to around 30 years.   

[jdrichard]

On 6/9/2021 at 6:36 AM, oldhippy said:

No matter what you think about Ronsonol lighter fluid there is nothing in it that can harm watch parts. It is  shellac friendly. I used it all the time as a watchmaker which in my time in horology came to around 30 years.   

And you can find it noted in some of my old manuals

[jdm]

16 hours ago, jdrichard said:

And you can find it noted in some of my old manuals

Really? Maybe during the war it was the only thing available. Below a page from an early 1900 watchemaking book, benzine is the same product is still best fo degreasing, and post-ammonia rinsing. You will find the same guidance in the Bulova school text, etc. 

[jdrichard]

On 6/10/2021 at 3:02 PM, jdm said:

Really? Maybe during the war it was the only thing available. Below a page from an early 1900 watchemaking book, benzine is the same product is still best fo degreasing, and post-ammonia rinsing. You will find the same guidance in the Bulova school text, etc. 

So benzine, equals lighter fluid:)

[oldhippy]

According to google the makeup is different.  

[Michael1962]

Is the best way to clean parts by immersion for a length of time or brushing and rinsing regularly to avoid possible damage?

[mikepilk]

I recently switched from using purified Naphtha to Elma WF Pro. I was surprised how much better it cleans and gives a really nice shine.

The smell isn't too bad - worst when you open the Elma container. I have fan and open window to keep the fumes down.

I use a small amount in 50 ml glass beakers supported in the ultrasonic of warm water.  Suggested cleaning time is 2 - 10 mins. I find one cycle of 2.5 mins in my cleaner cleans most parts well, but do 2x for dirtier parts.

I was worried about any effects on acrylic when cleaning a case, but I tried on old acrylic glass and didn't see any problems. 

[Michael1962]

I don't have an ultrasonic cleaner. I would be cleaning by hand. I have seen some US cleaners, but they are all the run of the mill Chinese ones. I would not know what they are capable of.

Heavier duty ones here in Australia are expensive.

I have emailed the company for a copy of the MSDS for the chemical (W9:1) I am looking at.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Michael1962

[clockboy]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:01 AM, Deggsie said:

 

Hi all. Are there any components that is should not put into ammoniated watch solution? I’m going to do my first clean using Elma WP Pro today, which judging by the smell of it, it is definitely ammoniated.

 

Regards Deggsie

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s a great cleaner but as you have found it smells and as I have a small workshop in my house I changed to L&R solutions. To help with fumes I open a window and have a small portable fan blowing across the cleaning machine which also helps ( and keeps my dearest happy)

[JDBooth]

I am new to watchmaking. I have recently tried my hand at cleaning watch parts in an ultrasonic cleaner using the #111 cleaning solution by I believe L&R. I set the temperature to 50c and clean for 10 minutes. I have not found much on the subject of temp/time variations. Anyways. Twice now I have performed this process and both times the solution leaves a thick white gel which usually take 3-4 rinses to remove it. Any ideas as to why this is happening?

[jdm]

4 minutes ago, JDBooth said:

I am new to watchmaking.

Just wanted to let you you know, we have a section dedicated to new members to introduce themselves. 

[nickelsilver]

18 minutes ago, JDBooth said:

I am new to watchmaking. I have recently tried my hand at cleaning watch parts in an ultrasonic cleaner using the #111 cleaning solution by I believe L&R. I set the temperature to 50c and clean for 10 minutes. I have not found much on the subject of temp/time variations. Anyways. Twice now I have performed this process and both times the solution leaves a thick white gel which usually take 3-4 rinses to remove it. Any ideas as to why this is happening?

What are you rinsing with?

[Nucejoe]

33 minutes ago, JDBooth said:

I am new to watchmaking. I have recently tried my hand at cleaning watch parts in an ultrasonic cleaner using the #111 cleaning solution by I believe L&R. I set the temperature to 50c and clean for 10 minutes. I have not found much on the subject of temp/time variations. Anyways. Twice now I have performed this process and both times the solution leaves a thick white gel which usually take 3-4 rinses to remove it. Any ideas as to why this is happening?

Welcome to WRT forum.