I'm new, looking to take up horology as years are advancinhg

[dadistic]

I wish people who want to talk about Timex would at least go over the service information,  there is disassembly involved and you can build skills by working on these watches.  I know I did, they were very helpful in helping me develop my ability to work with small parts, and to understand the inner workings of a watch. 

And if you work on a calendar movement, guess what? You get to have fun with springs!  And did I mention unpinning and pinning hairsprings?  

I think they are perfectly appropriate for a beginner,  they are robust enough that you can have early success instead of taking a perfectly good watch and turning it into a parts watch. 

 At some point, yes, you do need to move on to something with jewels and bridges, but that doesn't have to be the first step.  At one point when I was first learning I must of taken the train bridge off and put it back on 20 or more times on a Seiko movement, just to practice getting the pivots in place and handling screws etc.  

Cheers!

[Waggy]

5 hours ago, dadistic said:

I think they are perfectly appropriate for a beginner,

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, and that's OK, if everyone agreed then the world would be a boring place and there would be no need for a forum like this ha ha 

[LittleWatchShop]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, and that's OK, if everyone agreed then the world would be a boring place and there would be no need for a forum like this ha ha 

I have serviced a few Timex watches. In terms of the architecture of them, there is very little fungible knowledge to be gained. However, as @dadisticseems to imply, if you can survive servicing them many times, you will acquire extraordinary tweezer skills and dexterity. Would I wish them on a beginner? No, because likelihood of success is far greater with a Swiss mvt.

Just adding my two cents...

[JerseyMo]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:59 PM, Waggy said:

Just a heads up that Timex are very tough as they are not built to service, see typical Timex movement below:

Parts are riveted instead of screwed, most watchmakers don't like playing with them and not a great choice to learn on.

Rivets?  That is a myth perpetuated by those who want to knock Timex because they are not serviceable in the same manor as a typical swiss mechanical.  I do agree they are not the best choice to learn on since the techniques learned will not transfer to other repairs.  

On 10/19/2023 at 2:29 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

I agree with @Waggy, not a  movement to start on. I have mixed emotions about such movements, partly balk at the crudeness, partly admire that such a crude movement could run so well and be quite robust. 

yes they are remarkable devices.  Just a small sample here.

On 10/20/2023 at 12:18 AM, Waggy said:

@dadistic Here is the Timex M31 movement, only one screw to be seen and several rivets

 

 

Don't mean to rag on Timex, or hijack this topic, but my point was that Timex are probably not the best type of movement to start out with - later on if you are up for a challenge then they are interesting to work on and love/hate their different approach to watchmaking.

you may not realize but the screws on the other side of the movement for those models M24 and well up to M109.  The M21, M22, M26, M29 were on the back side. Done were riveted together preventing the plates from being separated.  

[semmyroundel]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:32 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah an Ideal Logic or Worcester Bosch kinda guy, give me a call, mine needs a service .

My condolences

 

On 10/23/2023 at 2:57 AM, dadistic said:

I wish people who want to talk about Timex would at least go over the service information,  there is disassembly involved and you can build skills by working on these watches.  I know I did, they were very helpful in helping me develop my ability to work with small parts, and to understand the inner workings of a watch. 

And if you work on a calendar movement, guess what? You get to have fun with springs!  And did I mention unpinning and pinning hairsprings?  

I think they are perfectly appropriate for a beginner,  they are robust enough that you can have early success instead of taking a perfectly good watch and turning it into a parts watch. 

 At some point, yes, you do need to move on to something with jewels and bridges, but that doesn't have to be the first step.  At one point when I was first learning I must of taken the train bridge off and put it back on 20 or more times on a Seiko movement, just to practice getting the pivots in place and handling screws etc.  

Cheers!

Good points there, I'm leaning towards getting some old Seikos now to disassemble as the Ferel Swiss watches I just bought quite cheaply have an odd Baumgartner BFG686 movement which unlike most others.

2 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

I do agree they are not the best choice to learn on since the techniques learned will not transfer to other repairs.

I think this is the salient detail that seems to be the consensus. However, it's possible to use them to practice handling small parts-that'a plus.

ASs I alluded to earlier-I committed another gaff buy buying some Ferel Electrotime watches.

My reasoning was that they are Swiss watches, so should be fine to work on except that they have that Baumgartner movement. I was directed to a powerpoint that showed the servicing steps, but as they work unconventionally, I'll get some Seiko movements to start on.

So, are there any other 'weird' watches or just movements I should avoid as a beginner?

TIA

On 10/20/2023 at 6:27 AM, Waggy said:

Just to add to my previous comments, if I had my time back I would start with cheap WORKING movements, I know this is counter intuative, but if you finish a resoration on an non-working movement and it still doesn't work, did you mess it up, or was it never going to work or??? At least if you start out with something that ticks when you get it and you restore it and it doesn't tick you know you did something wrong. After you get a few of these under your belt you can then tackle your non-runners and see if you can bring them back to life. Just some free advice - but like my friend says "if free advice was worth anything they would sell it" 

I like Seikos, and would recommend as they are bullet proof and can take a lot of abuse and keep ticking and there are lots of spares out there as well as youtubes showing how to refurb them. I have had good luck and service from these guys:

https://speedtimerkollektion.com/shop/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=11&products_id=78256

Don't be put off by the NOT running statement, I think thye put this on everything just to cover themselves, about 3/4 of the Not running watches they send me run fine :)... again more free advice 

 

I have done a few, and like you say they can be fun, especially when you are feeling up for a challenge.

Then on some sad lonely day when you are looking to punish yourself.... erm I mean challenge yourself... break out the timex!

Thanks for that info Scott. These movements: https://speedtimerkollektion.com/shop/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=11&products_id=78256

I noticed that they have no stems or crowns, should I be concerned with that? And is it a good idea to have 6 of the same movement? Just trying to get a measure on what to buy to start my journey.

TIA

[Waggy]

4 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

I noticed that they have no stems or crowns, should I be concerned with that? And is it a good idea to have 6 of the same movement? Just trying to get a measure on what to buy to start my journey.

Good point, I'd maybe search the same site for offerings with stems/crowns as it makes putting the keyless works back together a little easier. I also think you have a good point in switching up models, if you want to stick with Seiko, then maybe look at some of the following 7009, 6309 and 7S36/7S26 (the 7S26 and 7S36 are almost the same movement). Maybe get two of each type you select, then you can be sure to have spares just in case you ping-a-spring into that worm hole under your desk that leads to Darkest Peru. All of the models I mentioned are very common so will have lots of YouTube tutorials by different people so lots of different ways to skin that cat. However, I would recommend Mikes My Retro Watches YouTube channel, link here, as he is a Seiko Guru and shows his mistakes and how he gets out of them, and he is also pleasant to listen to.

On the subject of pinging springs, get yourself a good magnet, I got some of the below from Amazon and stuck two of them onto a steel ruler and just waft it over the floor/desk/wife/cat.... to find springs, screws etc. saves hours on your hands and knees inventing new and creative combinations of swear words 

As an aside, I recently invested in a blacklight as the jewels in a watch (and all rubies I think) fluoresce under UV light like a red beacon making it much easier to find them after you tiddlywink them across the room with your oiler.

Tried my best to avoid a spat over Timex, but I feel like the kid in the crowd looking at the emperor with no clothes.

The poster below sums it all up.

Timex were making cheap and nasty movements that were designed to be essentially disposable (sorry, but dunking the entire movement in lighter fluid does not constitute a service, just a poor attempt to fake a 'me too', product) ....... this would be forgivable IF they were charging cheap disposable movement prices to their customers, but charging the same for their movements as a comparable Swiss or Japanese movement is just dishonest and exploitative. I can genuinely see the attraction and challenge of servicing a Timex movement because you are trying to do something out of the ordinary and test your skills, but this is not justification for a company cutting every corner in their designs just so they can maximize their profit by exploiting the naivety of their customers who are paying way over the odds for disposable junk, when, instead, they could invest their money in a quality movement that would last. This is why I cannot bring myself to recommend Timex in any way shape or form, yes they showed tremendous innovation in their designs, but the innovation was unethical by being motivated to maximize profit at the expense of their customers, not making better watches.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Waggy

[JerseyMo]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:09 AM, Waggy said:

This is why I cannot bring myself to recommend Timex in any way shape or form, yes they showed tremendous innovation in their designs, but the innovation was unethical by being motivated to maximize profit at the expense of their customers, not making better watches.

  Farewell my fellow time piece brothers.  Wishing nothing but Peace and Happiness to all!

[JohnR725]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:09 PM, Waggy said:

The poster below sums it all up.

Timex were making cheap and nasty movements that were designed to be essentially disposable (sorry, but dunking the entire movement in lighter fluid does not constitute a service, just a poor attempt to fake a 'me too', product) ....... this would be forgivable IF they were charging cheap disposable movement prices to their customers, but charging the same for their movements as a comparable Swiss or Japanese movement is just dishonest and exploitative. I can genuinely see the attraction and challenge of servicing a Timex movement because you are trying to do something out of the ordinary and test your skills, but this is not justification for a company cutting every corner in their designs just so they can maximize their profit by exploiting the naivety of their customers who are paying way over the odds for disposable junk, when, instead, they could invest their money in a quality movement that would last. This is why I cannot bring myself to recommend Timex in any way shape or form, yes they showed tremendous innovation in their designs, but the innovation was unethical by being motivated to maximize profit at the expense of their customers, not making better watches.

That's an interesting quote up above then yes everybody gets to have a point of view it still interesting plus not entirely technically correct.

One of the amusements is dunking in lighter fluid Is a lot of eBay sellers do that with the watches there selling. Because then they can sell their watch as running at least for a few seconds. Then quite a few people on this group dunk their watches in lighter fluid rather than investing in proper cleaning fluids.

The first link is to the history of the Timex watch company unfortunately it doesn't cover there Unethical business plans and how evil they are I wonder where we would find that history?

The image is rather interesting because that's an advertisement by the Bulova watch company. They are attempting to sell a watch probably quite successfully. Comparing their well-made seven jewel versus the evil Timex company watch. Except where exactly did that seven jewel watch come from? I recognize the movement number we've discussed it before.

So that Caravelle movement is really a Bulova movement. Which is really equivalent to a citizen movement basically they're all the same watch it's a Japanese movement. Then yes I remember that because we discussed that watch for servicing issues before So just for reference as I found one link to a discussion I know there's more.

Now as we got a nice Bulova advertisement image about some advertising from the scoundrels at Timex? Do a search for Timex keeps on ticking on YouTube I picked out a couple for you.

https://www.heddels.com/2019/08/cheap-tick-history-timex-watches/

Bulova 11DP (Citizen 0241)

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bulova_11DP

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Citizen_0241

https://17jewels.info/movements/c/citizen/citizen-0201/

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Citizen_0241

 

 

 

 

[JerseyMo]

17 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

  Farewell my fellow time piece brothers.  Wishing nothing but Peace and Happiness to all!

yes, how can I continue now that the truth has come out that Timex is the evil empire of the watch industry!  Oh wait just a minute.   So when Rolex creates a product that sells for 35K ( those are the cheap ones too) and only can be afforded by a small percentage of the world population "that's not greed" ?  I thought companies were in business to generate funds, create jobs, support economies and all that good stuff the politicians argue about?  What am I missing here?  I ain't missing nothing.   In fact have a look at these NOS beauties I picked up a few weeks back.  All from 1967.

Edited November 8, 2023 by JerseyMo

[watchweasol]

Hi like Jersey Mo  I take the timex as another step on the evouloution of the watch industry, people like them and wear them and buy them, why. What is the basic function of a watch. To tell the time. And if the timex watches do that then that’s a success. The fact that they are still being made, worn and sold all over the world . So what’s with the snobbery regarding which is the best brand. You buy a watch it’s a personal choice. I have about 30 watches and as many clocks but I wear a Lorus Quartz, it tells me the time ,day date and it glows in the dark and it’s dependable. Timex are very much in the same vein practical. Would your Rolex, or any other Swiss watch still tick after an afternoon working with a Jack hammer  breaking concrete ,probably not but a Timex would. In conclusion I respect JersyMo’s attachment and expertise he has built up through great patience and his knowledge of the brand. So let’s kick the SNOBBERY into touch we all have our own opinions some best kept to our selves. I would agree with the comments regarding they are not the best starter movement to work on as the construction differs from the many watches you will come across in the course of watch repair. But there are many cheap working watches to be had to practise on preferably pocket watches as the bits are larger and easier to handle.      My 10 pence worth.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

yes, how can I continue now that the truth has come out that Timex is the evil empire of the watch industry!  Oh wait just a minute.   So when Rolex creates a product that sells for 35K ( those are the cheap ones too) and only can be afforded by a small percentage of the world population "that's not greed" ?  I thought companies were in business to generate funds, create jobs, support economies and all that good stuff the politicians argue about?  What am I missing here?  I ain't missing nothing.   In fact have a look at these NOS beauties I picked up a few weeks back.  All from 1967.

 

5 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

yes, how can I continue now that the truth has come out that Timex is the evil empire of the watch industry!  Oh wait just a minute.   So when Rolex creates a product that sells for 35K ( those are the cheap ones too) and only can be afforded by a small percentage of the world population "that's not greed" ?  I thought companies were in business to generate funds, create jobs, support economies and all that good stuff the politicians argue about?  What am I missing here?  I ain't missing nothing.   In fact have a look at these NOS beauties I picked up a few weeks back.  All from 1967.

We can't point the finger at just one company, I'm sure most watch brands in their day have cut corners to compete, you choose a customer market that you want,  so you aim to get that market, business is business. A brief glimpse of Swatch's antics over the years shows real planned greed rearing its ugly head. There's probably not many that have decent ethics if anybody can name one,  and many more that hide behind them. From the videos I've watched they brought affordability and reliability to an important aspect of everyday life. It would certainly be a shame to lose a valuable member that has vast experience and knowledge in such a unique design. JerseyMo's passion of  Timex obviously shows, for that reason alone we cant let you leave.

[JohnR725]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:09 PM, Waggy said:

this would be forgivable IF they were charging cheap disposable movement prices to their customers, but charging the same for their movements as a comparable Swiss or Japanese movement is just dishonest and exploitative.

Are we discussing movement prices cheap disposable movements? For instance Ronda movements A well-recognized Swiss brand let's look at prices. So let's look at the link quality watches at quality prices versus Timex garbage at cheap prices oh wait I'm confused look at all the movements for less than $25 in fact see quite a few movements at nine dollars?

https://www.stsupply.com/watch-parts/movements/ronda-movements.html

Here's one

So we have a Swiss product quality Swiss product and how do we know it's a quality product because at the link below you can download the technical information including the complete a colorful service guide. Although who in their right mind would service a quartz watch that could be replaced for less than $10?

https://www.ronda.ch/en/productfinder/caliber/505

Now we have another problem Timex is easier to make fun of because they make their movements for the most part. Occasionally in the past when they didn't have specific movements they will purchase from other companies or they just will purchase the entire other company to get their movements. It makes it a lot easier to point at the target because one target. What happens to these quality Rhonda movements what watches expensive Swiss watches have these movements in them? I suppose you could argue that the expensive Swiss watch isn't as profitable as the Timex watch because maybe the Swiss spend more money making the cases the bands and other components to justify selling a watch for several hundred dollars with a nine dollar movement inside.

Oh and I think somewhere somebody was commenting about the price of Rolex suggesting that their greedy versus Timex. Except Rolex is a nonprofit company they're not in it to make money at least isn't that what a nonprofit company is for?

Then just a reminder for everybody this is a watch repair discussion group.

So personally for somebody starting out I always recommend a clone of a 6497 because it's relatively cheap. It's also a brand-new its typically running. I think it's good for people to see what a running watch looks like if they would pay attention. In other words what does a running watch really look like what does the balance wheel look like when it's oscillating what is a flat hairspring look like. Plus the all-important test if you disassemble a running watch and put it back together is it still running? Who can you blame if it's not running after you disassemble and put it back together.

Versus working on broken watches were they have no experience and the outcome of successful repair is unknown. Or working on any non-jeweled watch pin levers in particular which can be repaired the same as the Timex but they represent challenges that I think newbies should avoid. The same as newbies should avoid trying to repair a watch until they grasp what the watch actually is. Plus unless they like expensive lessons should avoid quality name brand Swiss in particular like Omega or Rolex to start with. Not that either those companies rip us off on the cost of spare parts that they won't sell us anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:31 PM, dadistic said:

as far as I'm concerned Seiko 7S26 movements  are much more challenging

I've done a single one of those, and it was extremely challenging for me. So much so that I couldn't get myself to do another one. Those tiny, tiny cap jewel springs for the escape wheel and the 3rd wheel (if I remember correctly) must have been designed by a sadistic Japanese WWII veteran 

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Although who in their right mind would service a quartz watch that could be replaced for less than $10?

Qualified with $10 of course.  Recently, I had a solid gold ladies watch with a bad ETA movement.  Battery leaked.  It was a fairly rare movement thus the ones I found were expensive: $75.

The movement arrived and was not working.  Soooo, I decided to see if I could get the old movement working.  Not in my right mind (left mind for this task!), I did service the movement.  It was not as hard as I thought it would be.  Anyway, it worked.  However, I was also able to get the NOS movement working as well.

[JerseyMo]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

It would certainly be a shame to lose a valuable member that has vast experience and knowledge in such a unique design. JerseyMo's passion of  Timex obviously shows, for that reason alone we cant let you leave.

thanks, I can't leave until everyone owns a vintage Timex   or those elusive rivets are found!

[HectorLooi]

I'm behind you all the way, Mo. I've learnt so much from you through the years. Your experience and insight on all things Timex are priceless!

The only movements that I thought were unrepairable were those cheap plastic quartz movements with plastic rivets that were ultrasonically welded. But I've been proven wrong when I saw a video from a 3rd world country, where the rivets were cut off, movement disassembled and cleaned and reassembled, then sealed with a few drops of glue.

Just because our affluence affords us to dispose of a $10 movement, it does not allow us to ridicule and insult others who would undertake the repair. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

thanks, I can't leave until everyone owns a vintage Timex   or those elusive rivets are found!

Deal

[Waggy]

12 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

Oh wait just a minute.   So when Rolex creates a product that sells for 35K ( those are the cheap ones too) and only can be afforded by a small percentage of the world population "that's not greed" ?

Apologies for wandering way off topic, but I feel I have an obligation to respond to the above. I believe this is a fallacious argument (Appeal to the masses aka Bandwaggon Fallacy), just because Ronda or Rolex or ...? are doing the same doesn't justify another company, Timex in this instance, doing it. In fact I would agree with you that Rolex are just as guilty as Timex i.e. selling 'good' movements at massively inflated prices, compared to cheap movements at reasonable prices. You could argue that both companies are exploiting their customers but by using 'mirror images' of the same tactic. However, I would argue that Rolex customers are knowingly being exploited and as such are willing participants in this exploitation, perhaps a good example of cognitive dissonance, as owning a Rolex for many is often more about having a status symbol testifying to your wealth on your arm than owning a quality watch. Whereas, I believe, most Timex customers would be surprised/disappointed to look inside their watch and see the quality of the movement, especially if compared side-by-side to another similarly priced watch, and this is the point I was trying to make.

13 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

I thought companies were in business to generate funds, create jobs, support economies and all that good stuff the politicians argue about?

This is rather a one-dimensional view of business, as it's more than just about generating profit and taxes, they also have a duty to their customers, the environment and society at large. Otherwise any legal but unethical business practice would be acceptable e.g. exploiting poor child labor laws in some developing countries to manufacture goods for more developed countries, or deciding not to recall a car due to bad brake design as it is cheaper to pay the compensation to the families of the dead compared to the recall and bad press costs. Hence, a business (as an entity) is a member of the society in which it exists (even a global society) and must follow the societal and cultural norms of that society, or eventually it will be rejected by that society and pay the price.

Finally, I would hate to think that any of my original comments, or the comments above have upset another member enough to leave the forum, this was not my intention and I apologize if my comments came over this way - sometimes a lot of context is lost in the written word. We are all adults and should be able to partake in a discussion that challenges our views and opinions, myself included. Hence, I was simply expressing my opinion and invite others to challenge these in a free and open discussion. Having previously lived in several locations where the expression of ones opinions is not a given right and often punishable by paying the ultimate price, I firmly believe that "Sunlight Is the Best Disinfectant". Therefore, I believe that "keeping opinions to oneself" is unhealthy and ones opinions, even bad ones, should be shared in an open and honest way, so that the holder of those opinions is held accountable for them and can't hide behind anonymity or fear of offending others, and I was simply (although maybe crudely) exorcising this sentiment.

I hope we can all respect and respectfully challenge the views of others (myself included) and let the matter rest here and get back to the fun subject of watches.

[RichardHarris123]

5 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

thanks, I can't leave until everyone owns a vintage Timex   or those elusive rivets are found!

I have one, I'll post pictures and you can enlighten me to what model it is.  It's not winding service tips will be much appreciated. 

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

vintage Timex

I don't suppose we could have pictures of examples of what you consider vintage?

[JerseyMo]

On 11/9/2023 at 4:45 AM, JohnR725 said:

I don't suppose we could have pictures of examples of what you consider vintage?

Here are some examples of what I keep in my collection and consider to be classic and vintage.   Have a look at the 17 jewel movement.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, JerseyMo said:

vintage

I was kinda hoping for a year but. Here's something interesting about Timex and their history

We see that Timex made electric watches. Some of them are quite interesting how they work or amusing depending upon point of view. But as a were talking vintage all we care about is number 67. Notice how it looks different than the other Timex watches? Then unfortunately will have to go to another site for the history

https://electric-watches.co.uk/makers/timex/

Notice what Timex did in the race to produce electric watch they acquired another company or absorbed it perhaps that's why the 67 looks different absorbed from another company. 

https://doensen.home.xs4all.nl/e3.html

There's another reference

https://17jewels.info/movements/d/durowe/durowe-861/

Oh and the reference above comment was made about how the secondhand visually looks here's a video.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JerseyMo]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I was kinda hoping for a year but. 

 

I don't think you can place one year as what defines vintage related to Timex history.  The M67 is certainly one of those that showed Timex interested in reaching a wider buyers market. In fact I think of the years of 1958 - 1962 as the "Golden Era" of Timex innovation and designs.  have a look here at the 1959 Darwin - 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by JerseyMo