I'm new, looking to take up horology as years are advancinhg

[semmyroundel]

Hi all, I have a small collection of watches, nothing fancy, mostly stainless Constellations from the 60's (officially certified) and some Raketa that were bought in Vietnam and latterly on an auction site here in UK.

Being a plumbing and heating engineer, I'm fascinated how things work, and don't really have the money to be spending £450 to get an Omega serviced (no jokes please about rich plumbers, I've heard them all, plus it's a dog's life)

I thought, at minimum I could adjust them on a timegrapher rather than dob them in each time for a  service, plus some of the watches are worth less than even a cheap adjustment, so I thought "I'm reasonably good with my hands, how hard can it be?"

Well, I'm learning, and quite a few YouTube videos down the line, I'm getting better, at least at the terminology, nothing says noob more than calling a dial a face, I think....

I'm sure you'll be a friendly bunch, so here goes..

I have my first conundrum which I'll post in a bit.

Thanks.

[Nucejoe]

Welcome to the WRT forum.

 

[semmyroundel]

Firstly, forum etiquette. If this is the wrong place to put this please bump and I'll follow suit accordingly.

My watch journey started approximately 59 years ago when my grandfather in Madrid bought me a mechanical Citizen watch.

I didn't understand at the time what I really had until recently.

First thing is, am I right in saying the calibre is 6001?

I'll post some pics

[RichardHarris123]

Hello and welcome. 

[Nucejoe]

First place to go for caliber identification is;

Citizen 6001 ranfft

Where Dr ranfft shows you a picture of 6001.

Good luck Pal.

[watchweasol]

Hello an£ welcome to the forum.   There is a site. “TheWatchSite”.  Which deals exclusively with Seiko , Citizen watches. Might be worth a try.    The one you have, the number by the balance is indeed the calibre.  

[Waggy]

23 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

First thing is, am I right in saying the calibre is 6001?

Looks like a 6001, see link here

I just acquired a 6001 in a batch of watches - are you looking to refurbish it? 

As this has sentimental value I would advise you leave it on a shelf for now until you get a few wins under your belt with watches you aren't worried about junking. As your grandfather gifted this to you and your chances of junking it is high (given you are just starting out on your journey) I would wait until you are confident there will be no tears. Please accept this advice as well intended, I'm just trying to save you some heartache not wag my finger at you  and insinuate that you can't handle it. Nobody is born a watchmaker and it took me over 20 wathces (and tears) until I finally started winning more than I was loosing - and I still have the occasional train wreck! 

If you want, and you are ready, I can wait and work on my 6001 at the same time you are working on yours - two heads are better than one!

 

[semmyroundel]

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

Looks like a 6001, see link here

I just acquired a 6001 in a batch of watches - are you looking to refurbish it? 

As this has sentimental value I would advise you leave it on a shelf for now until you get a few wins under your belt with watches you aren't worried about junking. As your grandfather gifted this to you and your chances of junking it is high (given you are just starting out on your journey) I would wait until you are confident there will be no tears. Please accept this advice as well intended, I'm just trying to save you some heartache not wag my finger at you  and insinuate that you can't handle it. Nobody is born a watchmaker and it took me over 20 wathces (and tears) until I finally started winning more than I was loosing - and I still have the occasional train wreck! 

If you want, and you are ready, I can wait and work on my 6001 at the same time you are working on yours - two heads are better than one!

 

Scott, I really appreciate your honesty and absolutely not taken the wrong way.

When I started out in boiler repair some 30 years ago, I made some mistakes and had to tell the customer "I'm just getting something from the van" whereupon I'd leg it out and on my brick mobile, I'd phone the boss who was by then a veteran boiler engineer and ask him what the hell to do.

So I get it, there's a learning curve with everything, and after taking the movement out of the case, immediately I noticed that this had a cage to hold the movement inside, not seen that in any video online, and the auto winding train didn't seem to come off like other (ETA) movements I'd seen.

So I knew I might have thrown myself in the deep end, so appreciate your kind offer of waiting until I have a few under my belt.

To that end, I have some non-running Timex bought off Ebay, that were cheap enough to ruin, plus an old Newmark that belonged to a distant family member

[watchweasol]

Hi. The problem watching videos is you only get the best bits not the cock ups or the mistakes these are all edited out, best use them as guide lines not as gospel. All watches are the same but different ways of achieving the the same result.  There subtle changes between movements of the same family, So as Waggy points out there will be failures but in the process lessons learned. It’s a fascinating and frustrating hobby.

[Jon]

As I say to my students, 'Just because it's on YouTube doesn't make it the truth!'

@semmyroundelIf you're in or near London I teach watchmaking courses for complete beginners to the seasoned horologist. You might be interested to learn the correct way, rather than the steep learning curve of YouTube videos.

Check out my website: https://www.jonthewatch.co.uk/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jonthewatch/

[Waggy]

6 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

I have some non-running Timex bought off Ebay

Just a heads up that Timex are very tough as they are not built to service, see typical Timex movement below:

Parts are riveted instead of screwed, most watchmakers don't like playing with them and not a great choice to learn on.

[RichardHarris123]

I agree with @Waggy, not a  movement to start on. I have mixed emotions about such movements, partly balk at the crudeness, partly admire that such a crude movement could run so well and be quite robust. 

[dadistic]

I worked on a lot of Timex movements early on, they are not that difficult if you follow the Timex service instructions.  Generally, you do not take them completely apart as you would other watches (although you can),  but there are some things to be aware of.  For instance, the dial tabs can be a problem, if they are flexed too much they can break. 

None of the Timex movements I have worked on were riveted,  I don't know why people keep saying this. 

You can find service info in the document stash that I maintain, here is the link -

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-IKHN7WFKiwY3JMMDJnMld2SE0?resourcekey=0-7myGNNAUiShb5ihA-o6PnA&usp=share_link

 

Cheers!

[Jon]

1 hour ago, dadistic said:

I worked on a lot of Timex movements early on, they are not that difficult if you follow the Timex service instructions.  Generally, you do not take them completely apart as you would other watches (although you can),  but there are some things to be aware of.  For instance, the dial tabs can be a problem, if they are flexed too much they can break. 

None of the Timex movements I have worked on were riveted,  I don't know why people keep saying this. 

You can find service info in the document stash that I maintain, here is the link -

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-IKHN7WFKiwY3JMMDJnMld2SE0?resourcekey=0-7myGNNAUiShb5ihA-o6PnA&usp=share_link

 

Cheers!

Anyone who works with Timex and pin pallet movements deserves everyone's respect in my experience and opinion, as breathing life into these watches takes some doing. It's like the difference between working on a Model T Ford and a Ford Astra!

[Waggy]

@dadistic Here is the Timex M31 movement, only one screw to be seen and several rivets

 

 

Don't mean to rag on Timex, or hijack this topic, but my point was that Timex are probably not the best type of movement to start out with - later on if you are up for a challenge then they are interesting to work on and love/hate their different approach to watchmaking.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Waggy

[HectorLooi]

58 minutes ago, Waggy said:

@dadistic Here is the Timex M31 movement, only one screw to be seen and several rivets

 

 

Don't mean to rag on Timex, or hijack this topic, but my point was that Timex are probably not the best type of movement to start out with - later on if you are up for a challenge then they are interesting to work on and love/hate their different approach to watchmaking.

Timexes are actually quite fun. The screws are under the dial. There are only 4 of them. If you daring enough to attempt taking the plates apart, I recommend unpinning the hairspring and removing the balance wheel first. The hairspring on Timexes are actually quite tough, unlike Russian and some vintage watches.

Not your beginner's watch but I definitely recommend doing one just for experience. Who knows, you might actually get hooked.

Edited October 20, 2023 by HectorLooi
Typo

[Waggy]

18 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

I have some non-running

Just to add to my previous comments, if I had my time back I would start with cheap WORKING movements, I know this is counter intuative, but if you finish a resoration on an non-working movement and it still doesn't work, did you mess it up, or was it never going to work or??? At least if you start out with something that ticks when you get it and you restore it and it doesn't tick you know you did something wrong. After you get a few of these under your belt you can then tackle your non-runners and see if you can bring them back to life. Just some free advice - but like my friend says "if free advice was worth anything they would sell it" 

I like Seikos, and would recommend as they are bullet proof and can take a lot of abuse and keep ticking and there are lots of spares out there as well as youtubes showing how to refurb them. I have had good luck and service from these guys:

https://speedtimerkollektion.com/shop/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=11&products_id=78256

Don't be put off by the NOT running statement, I think thye put this on everything just to cover themselves, about 3/4 of the Not running watches they send me run fine :)... again more free advice 

 

15 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I definitely recommend doing one just for experience. Who knows, you might actually get hooked.

I have done a few, and like you say they can be fun, especially when you are feeling up for a challenge.

5 minutes ago, Waggy said:

After you get a few of these under your belt you can then tackle your non-runners and see if you can bring them back to life.

Then on some sad lonely day when you are looking to punish yourself.... erm I mean challenge yourself... break out the timex!

Edited October 20, 2023 by Waggy

[JohnR725]

18 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

To that end, I have some non-running Timex bought off Ebay

you can start playing with your Timex watches but you really want something that more closely resembles the type of watches you going to work on and Timex is not going to be that. 

and I see I'm late to the party while Timex watches are collectible there are people that repair them not really recommended in this situation. Basically the same as everyone else's said

19 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

When I started out in boiler repair some 30 years ago, I made some mistakes and had to tell the customer "I'm just getting something from the van" whereupon I'd leg it out and on my brick mobile, I'd phone the boss who was by then a veteran boiler engineer and ask him what the hell to do.

So I get it, there's a learning curve with everything, and after taking the movement out of the case, immediately I noticed that this had a cage to hold the movement inside, not seen that in any video online, and the auto winding train didn't seem to come off like other (ETA) movements I'd seen.

yes learning curve like that boiler job of 30 years ago I bet you didn't just walk in off the street grab the toolbox and say I'm a master plumber you probably had some training. Were just trying to tell you not to start on your watch any more than you would tell somebody to grab some plumbing tools and start working on that boiler because no experience is needed. Section quite common that a lot of people think watch repair no experiences needed.

Oh other little problems with watch repair technical sheets kind of exist sort of. Anything vintage was probably scan to PDF for parts identification. Typically we don't always get repair information. So when you're working on something different in strange it be nice to have the tech sheet which may actually exist but was never scan to PDF because somebody just scanned it for parts. But in the case of your citizen watch we have a little bit at least there's a drawing I was expecting pure parts only.

17 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. The problem watching videos is you only get the best bits not the cock ups or the mistakes these are all edited out, best use them as guide lines not as gospel. All watches are the same but different ways of achieving the the same result.  There subtle changes between movements of the same family, So as Waggy points out there will be failures but in the process lessons learned. It’s a fascinating and frustrating hobby.

I know someone who does YouTube videos and I was suggesting why not make a video of all the watches you can't fix right now because. Of course the answer was that would be a boring video nobody would want to see that. The other problem the videos are they do skip steps watch the steps if you know what they're working on a new look at what they're doing there are steps missing at least I hope there are steps missing because if they're not missing somebody is really screwing up here.

 rather than looking at all watches are the same I tend to think they're all different in a way. Definitely in the discussion group each watch should be its own question. I made the reference before learning to work on watches is similar to becoming a doctor. Doctors patients are all the same kind of but they're all different as our watches are all a little different even if they're similar. Then like a doctor were continuously practicing with each new patient and/or watch were getting better it's an ongoing learning experience. Especially with watches where there is such an incredible quantity of variations of things. Lots and lots and lots of variations sometimes kind of like walking in a field of pretty flowers with land mines.

 

487_citizen 6000, 6001, 6080, 6500, 6501.pdf

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, Waggy said:

Then on some sad lonely day when you are looking to punish yourself.... erm I mean challenge yourself... break out the timex!

And if you are feeling a little masochistic, try a 17 or 21 jewel Timex. It's like a Swiss movement but using Timex philosophy. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

kind of like walking in a field of pretty flowers with land mines.

 

 

Now thats my kind of pastime.  Just me, nature and a metal detector

[semmyroundel]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:59 PM, Waggy said:

Just a heads up that Timex are very tough as they are not built to service, see typical Timex movement below:

Parts are riveted instead of screwed, most watchmakers don't like playing with them and not a great choice to learn on.

Great, that's money down the drain then, arghhh my bad.

On 10/20/2023 at 6:16 AM, HectorLooi said:

Timexes are actually quite fun. The screws are under the dial. There are only 4 of them. If you daring enough to attempt taking the plates apart, I recommend unpinning the hairspring and removing the balance wheel first. The hairspring on Timexes are actually quite tough, unlike Russian and some vintage watches.

Not your beginner's watch but I definitely recommend doing one just for experience. Who knows, you might actually get hooked.

Brilliant, maybe I haven't wasted my money in the long run. I used to fix ELM Leblanc, Saunier Duval and Chaffoteaux et Maury boiler (all French) and if go to a callout knowing it's one of them, and more to the point, you can fix them, you DEFINITELY like a challenge.

Thjis just got VERY interesting, though I might start on a Ferel Electrotime I just got on Ebay.

A million thanks to all the contributors, it's all really useful info.

I'm guessing the interesting part for yourselves is (probably like the interesting part for me about the rise of Nazism in thirties Germany, and how people bought into the ideals of a madman-work for all, bread... etc) how I came about via my collection. To that end I will now successively photograph and upload my journey through the watches, there are a few uninteresting quartz ones, but it's who I was, and how I progressed.

If I shouldn't upload a photo of a "type" please say so here (there is an MBW in this journey, and I know that's contentious, but I'm asking nothing about it, in fact, I don't wear it at all)

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, semmyroundel said:

Great, that's money down the drain then, arghhh my bad.

do a look on the discussion group there is at least one individual who rather likes Timex watches and does successfully fix them. Timex also had service bulletins which is better than a lot of other companies. But traditionally not really the first watch you want to work on unless you just went out practice taking something apart and not worrying about every putting it back together again. Or you like the challenge of trying to get a whole bunch a pivots under one plate. Typically better grade watches usually separate the components you don't have everything under one plate but Timex isn't the only one that does that there are other watches were everything can be under one plate and it does become a challenge to get everything where it's supposed to be.

[dadistic]

I'm still not sure why everyone thinks that servicing Timex mechanical movements is so difficult.  I had no real problem with them, in fact, as far as I'm concerned Seiko 7S26 movements  are much more challenging. Those are the movements that I worked on most when I first started. 

I'll say it again, unlike many other watches,  the Timex service documents *do not require you to separate the plates*.   You can successfully clean a Timex movements without doing that.   If you follow the service docs, which I posted a link to above,  the most difficult task is unpinning the balance spring. This, however is not as tricky as it sounds, and is an excellent skill to learn. If that is too much, than just loosening the balance to allow cleaning and oiling is a good compromise. 

Timex movements are different, and they are not serviced the same way that one would a jeweled swiss movement. 

Now, if you are talking about some of the old "dollar watch" pocket watches, that *are* riveted together, then I'd agree.  Only worth working on if you are into collecting them. 

Cheers!

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 10/21/2023 at 6:28 PM, semmyroundel said:

used to fix ELM Leblanc, Saunier Duval and Chaffoteaux et Maury boiler (all French) and if go to a callout knowing it's one of them, and more to the point, you can fix them, you DEFINITELY like a challenge.

Ah an Ideal Logic or Worcester Bosch kinda guy, give me a call, mine needs a service .

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, dadistic said:

Timex movements are different, and they are not serviced the same way that one would a jeweled swiss movement. 

I'm not sure you are grasping what the problem really was and why we were saying it was difficult. When people start watch repair they need to practice disassembling and reassembling things without destroying them. This means we recommend disposable watches in this particular case that was interpreted as Timex disposable watches. As you said servicing them is easy because you do not disassemble them but that defeats the purpose of why these watches were purchased. These watches were purchased for the purpose of disassembling of them and disassembling a Timex and putting it back together successfully is not what a newbie should the doing or even attempt to do.

basically we have a miscommunication here of what is required for a practice watch.