A design for a belt-driven Jacot Tool ...... ?

[mikepilk]

How about using a foot controller as used on a sewing machine? I haven't used them much, but you do have good control over the speed.

[Endeavor]

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How about using a foot controller as used on a sewing machine? I haven't used them much, but you do have good control over the speed.

PWM with a 555 and a foot switch (RH, blue, momentary switch) has already been incorporated

Here the breadboard trial, which works very well and I'm now in the final stages of the construction. More pictures to follow.

An "intermediate-stage" picture below: Top: 240AC / 12V DC Adapter with 5.5mm plug, Bottom: foot-switch with 5.5mm plug, from left to right: LED, Pot-meter, metal box c/w motor & PCB, socket 5.5mm for foot-switch & socket 5.5mm for 12VDC power supply.

Updated schematic; added foot-switch controlling the TIP31 gate, pull-down resistor so the gate doesn't float and a LED for 12V power indication.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Endeavor

[LittleWatchShop]

Nice work!

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

How about using a foot controller as used on a sewing machine? I haven't used them much, but you do have good control over the speed.

No. Fixed speed. Fairly slow.

[VWatchie]

8 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

And the motor runs only as the button switch is pushed.

On 6/25/2023 at 11:24 AM, Endeavor said:

1) In order to have both my hands free, to belt-drive the Jacot tool

I thought the idea was to free up one hand (both? ). What exactly is the idea? I can totally understand and respect the desire to build it if you're into motors and electronics, but I can't quite see the benefits. Well, maybe it's just me.

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

but I can't quite see the benefits. Well, maybe it's just me

Yes that's the classic problem of lack of understanding. The other classic problem is standing in somebody else's shoes.

For instance the watchmaker who taught me how to use the tool claimed you need the practice every day to be good. My experience with the tool was I didn't like it so at some point in time in my life when I needed money I sold it. If I'm going to polish a pivot I use a balloon Chuck. Works fine for me. But then somebody else very likely you came along and said the tool is really easy to use but that's the problem easy for you not necessarily easy for me. We both have differing experiences and differing points of view does not make either one of us right or wrong.

The motor drive looks interesting to gets rid of the bow it would allow you to get everything set up everything in place including the burnishing tool in place before you even start spinning. They should be enough friction in the belt itself that if there's a problem and you release the switch to the motor it should stop instantly. Sounds like a nice concept. On the other hand the people that understand how to use the bow that sounds nice to just wasn't working for me at all.

 

[nickelsilver]

Meanwhile, Mr nickelsilver has done 400 pivots with a bow and burnisher .

 

Or some orders of magnitude less, but with no issues, and could do them during a blackout (this actually happened at the Swiss school I attended- blackout, but the 1st year kids were doing turning using a hand crank, so, go on!)

[Endeavor]

6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Meanwhile, Mr nickelsilver has done 400 pivots with a bow and burnisher

I'm very happy for you that you have the skills to do so !

I don't seem to have those skills and try it differently. It may or may not work, but than at least I tried something which could work for me

To me it's not a competition "Bow" vs "Belt-driven". If the bow works for you; by all means and perfect!

I do hope, at least for me, that there are more ways to skin a cat.

 

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I thought the idea was to free up one hand (both? )

That's correct, both hands will be free to concentrate on the burnisher and what has the be burnished, since the switch is a foot-switch

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Endeavor

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Meanwhile, Mr nickelsilver has done 400 pivots with a bow and burnisher .

Is that just since we've all been arguing about it

3 hours ago, Endeavor said:

I'm very happy for you that you have the skills to do so !

I don't seem to have those skills and try it differently. It may or may not work, but than at least I tried something which could work for me

To me it's not a competition "Bow" vs "Belt-driven". If the bow works for you; by all means and perfect!

I do hope, at least for me, that there are more ways to skin a cat.

 

That's correct, both hands will be free to concentrate on the burnisher and what has the be burnished, since the switch is a foot-switch

 

Because we are all different,  i can theoretically see the advantage of using two hands to keep the burnisher in position. To keep it steady and in the correct position, but if its a balance staff thats such a small piece to work on, the extra weight of more than one hand on the burnisher may be too much. I always try different things to other people, in my head they seem to make sense and should be better alternatives. When put into practice thay aren't always a better idea, there is sometimes an aspect that isn't apparent until you actually try it.  Always worth a try a though, no experiment is a waste of time, if you dont try then you wont know. Looking forward to seeing how it goes matey and definitely a better idea than the galaxy pivot polisher.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Endeavor]

Nearly done. Speed adjustment is seamless, foot-switch works perfect and everything runs smooth & silence. Currently the "driving-unit" is a "stand-alone", which seems to work. If not, I may have to get a small piece of angle-iron and fix the unit to the Jacot-tool stand.

Next, clean my desk and learn to burnish. Plenty of test-wheels

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Endeavor

[HectorLooi]

Seems to be set up for a left hander.

Is it running bidirectionally or just one direction? 

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Seems to be set up for a left hander.

Is it running bidirectionally or just one direction? 

Yes, I'm left handed and it's running in one direction; the top of the pivot towards me.

[HectorLooi]

I watched a YT video yesterday on a pivot polishing system using rubber abrasive wheels mounted in a motorised handpiece. 

There was a comment by @oldhippy. I'll let you read it yourself. 

[oldhippy]

I remember this idiot. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

I watched a YT video yesterday on a pivot polishing system using rubber abrasive wheels mounted in a motorised handpiece. 

There was a comment by @oldhippy. I'll let you read it yourself. 

Yeah but Doc sez with a cheap chinese dremel you want the wheel to run fast and everything that way it doesn't take very long ( to fook it up ) . So that has to be a bonus right ?, that way you're not spending a lot of time fooking it up

7 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I remember this idiot. 

Haha OH , your tact is immeasurable 

18 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Nearly done. Speed adjustment is seamless, foot-switch works perfect and everything runs smooth & silence. Currently the "driving-unit" is a "stand-alone", which seems to work. If not, I may have to get a small piece of angle-iron and fix the unit to the Jacot-tool stand.

Next, clean my desk and learn to burnish. Plenty of test-wheels

 

How about just fixing it all onto a board, 3/4 mdf, ply, bit of old kitchen worktop. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches
Too busy laughing to spell correctly 😅

[VWatchie]

On 7/2/2023 at 12:26 AM, JohnR725 said:

The other classic problem is standing in somebody else's shoes.

I agree. I just assume that @Endeavor's cognitive ability is normal (although my impression is that it is significantly higher than that) and that he has no physical handicap that hinders him from operating the Jacot tool in the traditional way. Yes, I could be wrong about that, but if we were to demand absolute facts and objective truths in every personal situation before we expressed an opinion or thought we wouldn't get much done. Therefore my opinions about this have not been about Endeavor, you, or anyone else but mostly about the subject in general.

On 7/2/2023 at 12:26 AM, JohnR725 said:

For instance the watchmaker who taught me how to use the tool claimed you need the practice every day to be good.

In general terms, I think that statement is false, even though it could of course be true for some people. I believe that for most well-motivated and interested people, it would only take a few hours to a couple of days to practice enough to get good or even near-perfect results. Being an enthusiast I only bring out my Jacot tool occasionally, and I always feel shaky (sometimes very shaky) the first couple of strokes with the burnisher. So, I take a scrap wheel, practice on it for a few minutes to get warm and then I'm ready to go, and I can proudly say that most of the time I get beautiful results.

On 7/2/2023 at 12:26 AM, JohnR725 said:

My experience with the tool was I didn't like it so at some point in time in my life when I needed money I sold it.

Or, perhaps the watchmaker who taught you didn't instil the needed trust in the tool (having to "use it every day to be any good") and it subconsciously bugged you enough that you eventually gave up on it?  Well, that's just a thought based on a personal experience. See, when I was about 10 years old, my gym teacher told me not to do ball sports ever again after he saw me playing soccer. After that, I didn't touch a ball for over 25 years when I discovered by chance that there was nothing wrong with my ball sense and I started playing tennis. For better or for worse, we are very impressionable when we are young, especially by authorities.

There are basically three scenarios where I would consider a motor/belt-driven Jacot to be well-motivated:

1. If despite your best efforts you're unable to get good results after having practised using it the traditional way for about a day and a half.

2. You have a disability that makes it impossible or very inconvenient to operate it the traditional way and a motor/belt-driven solution helps overcome that disability.

3. You have the desire and ability to make the Jacot tool motor/belt-driven and think that it would be a fun and/or rewarding project and perhaps even believe that it will make burnishing pivots more efficient and/or precise.

On 7/2/2023 at 12:26 AM, JohnR725 said:

We both have differing experiences and differing points of view does not make either one of us right or wrong.

Yep, and I was not looking to be in the "right" and tell someone that they were in the "wrong". I was simply trying to instil some confidence in operating the Jacot tool in the traditional way. As I understand it in the case of Endeavor, the Jacot tool is new to him and my impression was that he just assumed that it would be difficult to operate it in the traditional way and that a motor/belt-driven solution for driving the pulley somehow automatically would facilitate operating it. To me that sounded a bit like someone assuming that it would be easier and more convenient to use an electric wheelchair rather than trying to walk despite very likely being more than perfectly able to walk. After all, we are very used to motor-driven gadgets and in 99.9 per cent of the cases, we know that a motor is more effective than doing something manually.

However, to make sure, I think a motor-driven Jacot tool could be a brilliant idea for those who for whatever reason are unable to operate the Jacot tool in the traditional way if it alleviates a real problem. And I would be the first one to ask Endeavor if he would consider making one for me in such a situation.

On 7/2/2023 at 12:26 AM, JohnR725 said:

The motor drive looks interesting to gets rid of the bow

I worry about possible side effects on the result as the motor only spins in one direction while the burnisher moves in alternating directions, but hopefully, that worry is uncalled for. Also, learning how to synchronize with a motor that spins in alternating directions would probably be difficult. Possibly not a problem, if one has a decent sense of rhythm and the motor is consistent. Using a bow (yoyo keyring), altering the direction of the bow and the burnisher feels very organic (after practice) to me, and I would expect it for most people, but yes, there are always some exceptions, of course, and I honestly respect that.

[JohnR725]

14 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I think that statement is false

the problem is it's my memory. It's what this person showed me years ago he made a really beautiful black polish. He insisted you needed to practice. So it's nice to know that no practices required and he was obviously an incompetent idiot so you basically trashed my memory thank you. I know that wasn't your intent but that's what you've done.

of course like everything is always a problem. George Daniels in his book in watchmaking says not the burnished the curved part of the pivots you're supposed to polish them. Unfortunately we can't ask George he's not here as to why he thinks that. The watchmaker made a big point about the burnished your has to match the pivot so you can burnished the curved part. the reality is if the burnished her matches the curvature of the pivot you could burnished the curved part even though George said not to. So I flip a coin as to who is right in this argument?

 

16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I think a motor-driven Jacot tool could be a brilliant idea

personally I think the brilliant idea is the knob that you turn with the bonus polishing disc all held in a nice vice no Bow required. But that's an astronomically expensive priced item.

19 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I worry about possible side effects on the result as the motor only spins in one direction while the burnisher moves in alternating directions,

the catch to this particular problem is if we look at clock repair typically put things in the  lathe and powered by a motor typically it's spinning in one direction. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I worry about possible side effects on the result as the motor only spins in one direction while the burnisher moves in alternating directions.

Do we know what the cut is on a burnisher and that it burnishes the same in both directions. I thought i remember Nicklesilver saying to let up on the burnisher as its drawn backwards. I haven't found an explanation as yet as to why it is used in both directions on a jacot ( is it just all about control and safety of the pivot and nothing to do with how the pivot turns out ) looked through books of de Carle, Fried and Gazeley. Though they do explain how to make a burnisher. Old Hippy is adamant about lathe driven burnishing, i dont think it was clarified that it  pertained to watches or clocks.  

[VWatchie]

16 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the problem is it's my memory. It's what this person showed me years ago he made a really beautiful black polish. He insisted you needed to practice. So it's nice to know that no practices required and he was obviously an incompetent idiot so you basically trashed my memory thank you. I know that wasn't your intent but that's what you've done.

Expressing oneself in writing is difficult for everyone, even for me, and judging by your reaction, I did not succeed very well, which I sincerely regret, but I would like to try again and hope that I succeed better this time. If I fail again, you can at least rest assured that the only thing driving me is my goodwill to promote our shared interest in watches and repair.

I don't know if it helps but I can honestly say that I neither implied nor explicitly stated that your teacher would be an "incompetent idiot" or that practice is not necessary to master the Jacot tool. I'm sorry that what I wrote was perceived that way, especially as I have great respect and admiration for your know-how and your long experience, which you also generously share and for which many of us are very grateful. You are one of the most appreciated pros on WRT!

What I'm trying to say is that I personally believe that practice is not needed every day to master the Jacot tool, but of course, one must initially practice and practice a lot to master it. My main point and personal experience is that once you get the hang of it, you don't need to practice every day to maintain it. A few minutes of warm-up and repetition is all it takes to get going again if you feel shaky.

I am not writing this to question you or your teacher's statement, but because as I said, it is my personal experience and is intended as an encouragement to those who are thinking of getting a Jacot tool but may think it is very difficult to learn themselves to use or have to build a motorized solution to be able to master it as an enthusiast repairer who can't practice every day.

Then it goes without saying that for some individuals (I think they are very few) the learning is almost insurmountable, while for others (I would think a majority) the learning only takes a few hours to a day or two. I myself spent a couple of days practising before I started to feel confident with the technique, but I think it is an unusually long time because I had no teacher or mentor who could show and help me "hands-on". It is of course individual how easy or difficult it is to learn to use the Jacot tool, but regardless, I respect, admire and am inspired by everyone who tries.

Edited July 5, 2023 by VWatchie

[oldhippy]

After a tiny stroke about 6 years ago my short term memory is hopeless. I can't remember what I did last week. But what I did years ago I can remember quite well. 

[nickelsilver]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

 

What I'm trying to say is that I personally believe that practice is not needed every day to master the Jacot tool, but of course, one must initially practice and practice a lot to master it. My main point and personal experience is that once you get the hang of it, you don't need to practice every day to maintain it. A few minutes of warm-up and repetition is all it takes to get going again if you feel shaky.

I think this sums it up well. I've seen folks who learned its use in school, but hadn't touched it in quite a few years, sit down and do balance staff pivots, it was literally the first time they used it since school. Another, who went to a school notorious for making everything seem scary and like some sort of witchcraft, who obviously managed to use it at school, struggle like heck when they tried to do a simple pivot after just a couple of years post school. Yet another went to a school that just sort of said, "this is a Jacot tool, it works like this, try it out if you want"- they struggled a lot too (just out of school when they got to my shop). Both of those guys were knocking out pivots after just a few minutes of instruction; for the former, it was removing the fear factor, for the latter, it was simply explaining and showing how to do it correctly.

 

So yes, it takes a bit of practice to get used to the tool, but not crazy practice. Yes, doing balance pivots is harder than a regular shouldered pivot. I fully disagree that it takes daily practice, or anything close to it. One thing I will say is you want a good burnisher, and here Bergeon actually does hit the mark, their burnishers in tungsten carbide are fantastic.

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

a good burnisher

My Jacot (as most Jacots, I think) came with a burnisher.  I have no clue of its metallic makeup.  It is the one I use along with my Elgin sapphire burnisher.  Thoughts??

[nickelsilver]

22 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

My Jacot (as most Jacots, I think) came with a burnisher.  I have no clue of its metallic makeup.  It is the one I use along with my Elgin sapphire burnisher.  Thoughts??

I imagine it is steel, and wonder if it is for left hand or right hand use, if it has a radius on one edge, and how big that radius is, and what condition it's in, and if it works well or poorly or not at all. I wouldn't use a sapphire burnisher on a Jacot too, it will wear the tops of the beds, and you can't put pressure on it. Well, you can, until it breaks.

 

Most Jacots I've seen and/or purchased didn't come with a burnisher, or if they did, it was a little skinny thin one for rounding the ends of pivots using the lanterns. Most don't seem to come with bows either, otherwise I've have a dozen bows!

[mikepilk]

35 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

One thing I will say is you want a good burnisher, and here Bergeon actually does hit the mark, their burnishers in tungsten carbide are fantastic.

I'm sure they are wonderful, at about 160 euros, but for the few times I use it, I'll have to stick with my cheapo Indian version (and keep an eye on ebay)

Edited July 5, 2023 by mikepilk

[VWatchie]

33 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

One thing I will say is you want a good burnisher, and here Bergeon actually does hit the mark, their burnishers in tungsten carbide are fantastic.

Good point and that could possibly be a deciding factor! I have the Bergeon tungsten carbide burnisher and I immediately felt more "comfortable" using it than the Vallorbe that I first got (and no longer use). 

[nickelsilver]

5 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I'm sure they are wonderful, at about 160 euros, but for the few times I use it, I'll have to stick with my cheapo Indian version (and keep an eye on ebay)

Ha, yes, much less painful on Ebay! And secondhand, they are rarely worn or abused, since folks don't use them much, haha.

 

Just now, VWatchie said:

Good point and that could possibly be a deciding factor! I have the Bergeon tungsten carbide burnisher and I immediately felt more "comfortable" using it than the Vallorbe that I first got (and no longer use). 

The Vallorbe is an ok tool, but the file side is useless for watch work, and the radius on the burnisher side is huge- might correspond to a balance on a hairspring vibrating tool or maybe and 18s pocketwatch with a pronounced radius. More of a clock tool (though you woulnd't need the radius there).

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by nickelsilver