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Bad spring ?

TheFixer

By TheFixer
in Watch Repairs Help & Advice

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m1ks WRT Addict

m1ks

Posted
Posted (edited)

While not the very best I've seen, that doesn't look bad. 

I'd look elsewhere for the poor power reserve. Seiko's can wear oval at the barrel arbor holes in the main plate and bridge so check there, then endshake etc in the train and establish that all moves very freely before looking to the escapement.

Edited by m1ks
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rogart63 Distinguished Member

rogart63

Posted
Posted

Looks a little tired. 14 hours is to little. But don't think it's just the MS. Check for wear in the winding area . The Seiko finger is one place where the 7009 usually wear out . Also the teeth on the finger can get dull . 

Marc Distinguished Member

Marc

Posted
Posted

Are you using the right breaking grease, and the right amount? 

How many turns of the arbor do you get before the bridle slips?

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anilv Distinguished Member

anilv

Posted
Posted

Its a bit out of flat, this will result in rubbing the barrel top/bottom of the barrel and could prevent the barrel from unwinding fully. If this is the case you would see marks inside the barrel where it has been rubbing.

I usually install the mainspring and train wheels (no balance or pallet fork) and give it half a wind on the ratchet wheel. Once the wheels start moving I try to push the wheels and barrels along to see if it starts up for a few more turns of the escape wheel.. if it does then something is preventing full power-down and needs looking into.

Good luck!

Anilv

oldhippy Distinguished Member

oldhippy

Posted
Posted

The spring is not laying flat so that tells me it has twisted, so when it is winding up it could be rubbing the inside of the barrel cap. Just looking at a picture of a spring we cannot tell is it is loosing or lost its strength 

I forgot to say you should replace it. 

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TheFixer WRT Addict

TheFixer

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Posted
12 hours ago, Marc said:

Are you using the right breaking grease, and the right amount? 

How many turns of the arbor do you get before the bridle slips?

I now never use breaking grease I use oil.

The trouble with grease is it can harden and make the coils stick together, and personaly I think breaking grease is a bit of a myth but thats just my opinion.

I've done three services on Seiko 6119c  movements and and a 6309 plus a couple of 7005 and never had any problems with the method I use lubricating the mainspring.

Put the spring in dry then lubricate and fit the abor then a tiny drop of oil N S E W, a couple of tiny drops on the bottom of the barrel and barrel lid.

I seem to remember reading that George Daniels put springs in dry then lubricating.

All the movements mentioned above were the original springs just cleaned and lubed and all run around 39 to 41 hours.

The spring I posted about does not look original to me so I will dig out a used one and try that.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions it is much appreciated and I will go over everything as a precaution.:)

I will report back.

jdm Distinguished Member

jdm

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheFixer said:

I now never use breaking grease I use oil.
The trouble with grease is it can harden and make the coils stick together, and personaly I think breaking grease is a bit of a myth but thats just my opinion.

I think that you misunderstood the use of breaking grease. It does not apply to the to the lid or the bottom of the barrel (that can be left unlubricated), but only to the outer wall, to help the bridle grip there. Hence, it never goes in between coils.

14 hours ago, rogart63 said:

Looks a little tired. 14 hours is to little. But don't think it's just the MS. Check for wear in the winding area . The Seiko finger is one place where the 7009 usually wear out . Also the teeth on the finger can get dull . 

Correct, but we don't know how the OP measured the power reserve, if on the wrist, on the auto-winder, or winding at the barrel.
If there is a large difference between first two methods and the latter, problem is with the winding. Otherwise, with something related to the barrel, and isn't said that is always the spring.
Also we don't know if it was flat when inside the barrel. It could have been distorted while pulling it out, which is always a somewhat violent action.

Edited by jdm
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TheFixer WRT Addict

TheFixer

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, jdm said:

I think that you misunderstood the use of breaking grease. It does not apply to the to the lid or the bottom of the barrel (that can be left unlubricated), but only to the outer wall, to help the bridle grip there. Hence, it never goes in between coils.

Correct, but we don't know how the OP measured the power reserve, if on the wrist, on the auto-winder, or winding at the barrel.
If there is a large difference between first two methods and the latter, problem is with the winding. Otherwise, with something related to the barrel, and isn't said that is always the spring.
Also we don't know if it was flat when inside the barrel. It could have been distorted while pulling it out, which is always a somewhat violent action.

Well aware it is applied to the outer wall and nowhere else.

I think my reply has been misunderstood, I was not meaning that breaking grease is applied to the spring it self, other greases can be used for that but I prefer oil as grease can harden.

So called breaking grease is not needed.

Edited by TheFixer
nickelsilver Distinguished Member

nickelsilver

Posted
Posted

Don't want to start a back and forth, but if someone doesn't want to put braking grease on their own automatic watch, so be it. Manufacturers and professional repairers do use it, for good reasons, and not because it's fun to apply and fun to have a couple or few more expensive lubricants on hand. As a professional I recommend it, and against not using it. But again, on one's own pieces do as you please.

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TheFixer WRT Addict

TheFixer

Posted
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Posted
1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Don't want to start a back and forth, but if someone doesn't want to put braking grease on their own automatic watch, so be it. Manufacturers and professional repairers do use it, for good reasons, and not because it's fun to apply and fun to have a couple or few more expensive lubricants on hand. As a professional I recommend it, and against not using it. But again, on one's own pieces do as you please.

Thats fare enough but I have spoken to two pros one of whome does some work for me personaly and they do not use it.

I guess even some professionals dont always agree.

Lubrication is a contentious issue and I think always will be so I will park it here.

TheFixer WRT Addict

TheFixer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Watch is rebuilt and on test.

I replaced the mainspring and lubed in my usual way, so am expecting 39 ish hours.

Keeping fingers crossed.

Amplitude currently is 242 which for a used spring is pretty good.

clockboy Distinguished Member

clockboy

Posted
Posted

Getting back to the origins of this post ie was the spring OK to re-fit the answer should be no. Most pro's always replace with a new spring as part of the service charge. Breaking grease on the barrel rim is a must and the new springs are already lubricated. 

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Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted
On 10/24/2019 at 1:20 PM, TheFixer said:

I now never use breaking grease I use oil.

The trouble with grease is it can harden and make the coils stick together, and personaly I think breaking grease is a bit of a myth but thats just my opinion.

I've done three services on Seiko 6119c  movements and and a 6309 plus a couple of 7005 and never had any problems with the method I use lubricating the mainspring.

Put the spring in dry then lubricate and fit the abor then a tiny drop of oil N S E W, a couple of tiny drops on the bottom of the barrel and barrel lid.

I seem to remember reading that George Daniels put springs in dry then lubricating.

All the movements mentioned above were the original springs just cleaned and lubed and all run around 39 to 41 hours.

The spring I posted about does not look original to me so I will dig out a used one and try that.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions it is much appreciated and I will go over everything as a precaution.:)

I will report back.

Dosn,t oil run out of the barrel?  Gets on other parts? 

TheFixer WRT Addict

TheFixer

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Dosn,t oil run out of the barrel?  Gets on other parts? 

Tiny amount.

As you can see it has already penetrated the coils after a few moments.

IMGP0051.jpg

Tiny amount on barrel lid.

IMGP0052.jpg

About to close the barrel.

IMGP0053.jpg

Closed

IMGP0055.jpg

 

Edited by TheFixer
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