Incabloc lyre spring replacement for Unitas 6498 Clone

[louisg]

Hey all,

Completely new beginner here, going through Mark's video course with a Unitas 6498 clone off ebay.  I did search for this but didn't find it; so apologies if this has been asked already on the forum.

I managed to dislodge the upper (? watchmaker side) incablock spring.  I tried to get it back in, but it pinged into the ether on me.  Not expecting the watch spirits to apport a replacement anytime soon, I ordered one and also some practice ones.

My question is, for the Chinese 6498 clone, does the incabloc spring insert on the outside or the inside of the setting?  I kept trying to get it into the outside of the setting which probably resulted in frustration and me squeezing the tweezers too tight and launching it.  But then I watched a video from another thread that showed a KIF spring and it was inserted via the inside of the setting, so I was thinking maybe I was trying the wrong thing the whole time.

I had read that disassembling was not required to put the spring in a Chinese clone, so please advise if I misunderstood.  I also read about using some plastic wrap to avoid pinging the spring away, and I will definitely do this in the future for my practice ones when they come.

Thanks for the help!

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, louisg said:

I managed to dislodge the upper (? watchmaker side) incablock spring.  

Do you mean cock side shock spring?  

To stand on the safe side, I seperate the balance complete then lay the cock on an anvik to get the spring installed using one prong of fine tweezers. so if tweezer slips then,  sensative balance/ hairspring  is not underneath it to get damaged, hardly any part can gets damaged. Remove the regulator arm as well.

Detaching and safe removal/ reinstallation of balance complete is a must to master task. 

Trying to instal a shock spring with balance complete underneath it is RRRisky.

 

[JohnR725]

I suspect we've covered it before some place the problem is trying to figure out what we called it what it was titled to find the discussion?

I'm attaching an image that hopefully isn't too confusing. In the Swiss version when you lift up the spring or release it ,it stops at the red line. It basically just pivots here the block that outlined in pink doesn't exist in the Chinese version. This is why when you release the spring it just slides out there's nothing to hold it in place.

putting it back is easy if you understand how and if you're really careful on how you hold the spring. The tabs that hinge are wider than the slot. You need to place the spring at a angle like the blue line shows then gently rotated into place then the tabs will be under where there supposed to be.

 

[HectorLooi]

The secret here is the type of tweezers to use. If you use a regular tweezer, the shock spring tends to rotate the moment it touches the wall of the Incabloc and ping off into another dimension. 

I found that eyebrow tweezers with a tip around 4mm width to be the best tool for this job. Grab the shock spring in the centre, making sure to grip both sides of the lyre. And as JohnR725 says, get one end of the hinge in first, then rotate the other end in. 

It can be a little stressful at first but with good lighting and magnification, you'll get it in the end.

Cheers. 

[ifibrin]

KIF shock springs (not the trior 1-X series) are inserted from the inside of the shock block as you mentioned, making replacement of the KIF shock springs easier. Incabloc type shock springs are hinged in a gap on the exterior of the shock bloc, and have the propensity to fly out when opening the shock spring, even though they are engineered to be non detachable. The Genuine Swiss Incabloc shock springs can only be easily installed by removing the entire shock block, but some have reported that the for the Chinese incabloc clones, the shock springs can be re-inserted carefully without removing the shock block from the plate/bridge.

For incabloc type shock springs, I have now taken to placing a small piece of rodico at the gap in the shock block where the incabloc shock spring hinges to prevent it from flying off when opening the shock spring.

I have attached a photo indicating the gap from which the incabloc type shock springs tend to fly out. In this case it is t main plate one, but the balance cock one is similar. Try putting a small piece of rodico in the gap whenever opening or closing the shock spring.

I am unsure if you can try using genuine Swiss incabloc shock springs in the Chinese clone but you can try.

[louisg]

Thanks for the replies, all!

@Nucejoe, yes I mean the cock side shock spring.  I'm not sure I'm up to disassembling the balance yet.  I was going to put the balance complete back on the main plate and try to carefully do it there.  I wish I had lost a part easier to deal with, sigh.

@JohnR725 That makes perfect sense, and thank you for the diagram.

@HectorLooi Yes, that's exactly what was going on - as soon as I got it close it rotated every direction except the correct one!  I will try wider tweezers.

@ifibrin I will be sure to follow your lead and place rodico in the future.  As soon as it fell out I knew I was in trouble, lol.  I ordered the Swiss one from ofrei, and will report back if it fits.  If not, I'll probably just get another Chinese movement because I'm sure to botch this one up while I practice and could use the spare parts.

[ifibrin]

You may want to take a look here: 

Someone has already tried to interchange a genuine incabloc shock spring in there and found that it doesn’t fit quite right. However, the genuine incabloc lower shock spring may work in the top setting. If you do decide to buy a genuine ETA movement to make getting spare parts easier I recommend you to get some bergeon or dumont brass tweezers to handle parts without them flying away or getting scratched. Just a friendly tip from someone who was in the same position as you 5 months ago.

 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, louisg said:

Thanks for the replies, all!

@Nucejoe, yes I mean the cock side shock spring.  I'm not sure I'm up to disassembling the balance yet.  I was going to put the balance complete back on the main plate and try to carefully do it there.  I wish I had lost a part easier to deal with, sigh.

Other than the unconventional etachron studs,  removal of the rest is intuitive.   You might want to practice balance removal on cheap scraps. 

Have you used a magnet for hunting the lyre spring?   works.

[ifibrin]

Here’s some pictures on a movement (ETA 2000-1) I was working on to illustrate:

place a tiny piece of rodico in the gap

using a sharp tool (tweezers, or a rounded pin in a piece of wood)

nudge the middle part of the shock spring slightly until it pops out; repeat the process on the other leg of the shock spring

After removing the cap jewel, using tweezers close the shock spring back into the setting.

Then remove the rodico.

When repeating the process after cleaning to reinsert the balance jewels, it can be significantly harder to open the shock spring legs from an empty shock block. You need really sharp tweezers, using the flat at the end as a blade to “twist” up the shock spring from its catch, because the balance jewels are not there to stop the shock spring legs from downwards movement.

Edited October 26, 2021 by ifibrin

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Other than the unconventional etachron studs,  removal of the rest is intuitive.   You might want to practice balance removal on cheap scraps. 

Have you used a magnet for hunting the lyre spring?   works.

I find it quite hard to remove the balance wheel+hairspring from the etachron system without the specialized tools from bergeon. The regulator stud is quite difficult to get a good grip to rotate it just right to allow the hairspring to be removed from the regulator stud. The hairspring stud can be removed from the stud support with a pair of tweezers, but using the tool makes it significantly easier.

Edited October 26, 2021 by ifibrin

[clockboy]

This issue is a regular on the forum. I believe what is happening many watch the pro’s on vids and see that they seem to have no issues. BUT unlike us amateurs they have years of experience and have the uncanny feeling/touch gained through working on hundreds of watches. My advice is when releasing a spring always support using either some Rodico or some pegwood as they are springs and under some tension. Fitting a replacement spring is really tricky and covering the watch with some cling film while manipulating to save many hours in a search of the work area. 

[louisg]

13 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Have you used a magnet for hunting the lyre spring?   works.

I did, but I just did it again and found the spring!  It's now safely stored.  I may wait to try putting it in until the Swiss replacement comes so I can compare sizes for future reference.  I will try to get pictures and post so others can see if I have a camera that can focus close enough.

[louisg]

10 hours ago, clockboy said:

I believe what is happening many watch the pro’s on vids and see that they seem to have no issues. BUT unlike us amateurs they have years of experience and have the uncanny feeling/touch gained through working on hundreds of watches. My advice is when releasing a spring always support using either some Rodico or some pegwood as they are springs and under some tension. Fitting a replacement spring is really tricky and covering the watch with some cling film while manipulating to save many hours in a search of the work area. 

As a new amateur, can confirm.  From watching Mark do it (as well as random vids on YT), I thought the spring was captured and didn't worry about the hinge side.  Apparently on the Chinese ones it isn't (though it seems they're fragile enough that ham-fisting a captured one can cause it to fly anyhow).

I will definitely be doing the rodico / pegwood in the future and using cling film when I try to put it back in.

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, clockboy said:

I believe what is happening many watch the pro’s on vids and see that they seem to have no issues. BUT unlike us amateurs they have years of experience and have the uncanny feeling/touch gained through working on hundreds of watches.

another reason why the pros are good at it is they went to school and they practiced. Practicing at school is different than practicing on this discussion group? This group perceives practicing is working on one watch at a time. In school here given a whole bunch of watches so each step your practiced your basically doing this all day long eight hours a day for several days. This is why the professionals make it look so simple not just the years of practice but the hours are practicing in school the classroom situation where an instructor passes or fails you by how you're doing.

26 minutes ago, louisg said:

(though it seems they're fragile enough that ham-fisting a captured one can cause it to fly anyhow).

basically this is back to practicing again. Providing you have a replacement spring and are not worried about losing it I'd recommend taking it out practice putting it back in several times to get good at it.

 

[ifibrin]

5 hours ago, louisg said:

As a new amateur, can confirm.  From watching Mark do it (as well as random vids on YT), I thought the spring was captured and didn't worry about the hinge side.  Apparently on the Chinese ones it isn't (though it seems they're fragile enough that ham-fisting a captured one can cause it to fly anyhow).

I will definitely be doing the rodico / pegwood in the future and using cling film when I try to put it back in.

The incabloc shock springs in Swiss movements can also fly out, although they are less likely to. I have had that happen to me, which is why I always use rodico now. If you are going to try and re-insert the shock spring without disassembly of the entire shock block I highly approve of @HectorLooi suggestion to use eyebrow tweezers, which have a flat edge at the end to allow you to safely hold the shock spring by its entire length. Tweezerman makes very good tweezers of this sort.

[JohnC]

Don't feel bad, this happened to me as well. A disclaimer should come with these movements that the springs don't hinge like you would expect them to, but can easily just fall out the back end of the setting. I have not worked on one of these movements in a while, but as noted above you can place rodico or hold pegwood behind the spring when opening to prevent this happening in future.

I am not sure where you ordered from, but for future reference there is a Polish seller on ebay who stocks spare parts for these movements. He should be easy to find. Although it is not economical, I understand the rationale behind buying spares to get your first movement up and running again.

[louisg]

Hey All,

Got the replacement I ordered from Ofrei.  As one can see, it measures much different than the original Chinese clone one.  Wanted to make sure I posted this here so anyone else with the same issue can check it out.

I haven't had time to try to install the original incabloc (which I ended up finding).  Will report back when I do that.

Thanks for all the help thus far!
 

[kd8tzc]

I know this is quite old, but what replacement springs does one need for the Chinese Clone ST36?  I had the bottom one break, but would like to get a few of the top and bottom ones so I can practice.  I just want to make sure I have a few spare for that practice.

[SqM]

Looks like this was never answered or resolved - any idea where we could source the correct incabloc springs for these clone movements for practicing? 

I've lost one spring during my first re-assembly, and without being able to find a replacement the movement went from a decent runner to parts   I can buy another, but what a shame - especially when learning and just starting out.

I just don't know where to look and would appreciate some advice - even if it's "sorry, you won't ever find them"   

[JohnR725]

I have a link to a discussion that starts off similar to this one and it look like they're a part numbers but I don't know if that discussion ever came to an end either it kinda got hijacked with something else but you might find something of interest there.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/26144-eta-6497-spring-for-jewelled-shock-absorber-for-balance-top