Still Not Working After New Battery...

[boyandhisdogs]

I recently purchased a Victorinox 26071.CB (Ronda 515 movement) that was not working. I assumed/hoped that all it needed was a battery, and the price was cheap enough for me to take the gamble. Cosmetically, the watch is in great condition, not a single scratch on the crystal or case, and only a few minor ones on the back that I'll never see anyway. 

I bought three batteries, two of which were dead right out of the package. The best of the three reads 1.40v so that's the one I put in the watch. And yes, the little orange isolator was in place and the battery is right side up as far as I know. I also checked for continuity in a few places. Between battery terminals, one end of the coil to the other, and from (+) side of the battery to (-) side of the coil. All showed continuity. I also noticed that when I whack it against my palm (as I have read that this might kick-start the watch) sometimes I can get the second hand to advance a bit, and if I tilt the watch back and forth the second hand has about half of a second worth of play in it. 

 

Worst case scenario, these movements are inexpensive and I feel fairly confident in my ability to swap one in, but I would much rather fix it as-is if at all possible. 

I have read that other watches have an AC point to jump start them, but I do not believe that this one does. Does anyone have another method of jump starting a watch besides the AC point or physical impact? I read conflicting posts about magnets... some say that you can use them to pull the watch along until it starts, but I have also read that they can damage quartz movements. 

Also, should I be concerned about the play in the second hand? Is that something that will go away once it's under power? 

 

Here are a few pictures, hopefully trained eyes might spot something.

 

 

 

[boyandhisdogs]

 

Here is a slightly better close up.

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

How about overhauling the movement, there is techsheet for the caliber and you need a pair of tweezers, screwd driver, loup, lighter fluid and watch oil. 

I put a bit of lighter fluid on pivots and nudge a gear with toothpic to get it to move.

Even if it dose run now, to have a reliable movement a good clean and lube is in order.

 

[rodabod]

You can try advancing the wheel train slightly by gently rotating one of the wheels underneath the train bridge. A needle or a piece of pegwood should do the trick. The seconds hand with have moved if this works, and you may find that it frees up the train (assuming the train is jammed which it may not be).

[Marc]

I think I would still be questioning the  battery.

First off in good condition the nominal voltage of an SR921 is 1.55v, so measuring only 1.40v it's already a dud. Then when that's the best out of the three, and they are brand new batteries, that suggests a rather dodgy brand/supply of batteries, what brand are they? Out of a box of 10 batteries I expect to get 10 that give me 1.55v on the meter, if I only got 3 I would be sending the box back.

Get yourself a good quality new battery that measures 1.55v and have another go.

[HSL]

2 hours ago, boyandhisdogs said:

I have read that other watches have an AC point to jump start them, but I do not believe that this one does. Does anyone have another method of jump starting a watch besides the AC point or physical impact?

I guess there are good ways, bad ways and quite stupid ways to get a quartz movement going.
My personal opinion is not to jumpstart anything with for example a demagnetizer  if it isn’t used to properly demagnetize watch parts of course.
Just like with a pure analogue watch the quartz usually has a train of wheels, which just like the mechanical watch can be compromised by dirt and worn parts. With a mechanical watch the most do the right thing and clean and lubricate it, switch the broken parts.
This mostly is also the procedure with high-end quarts watches too, but with cheap movements it probably just gets changed.
If a cheap movement can be inspected one should do so and remove what ever is making the train not to move. Just to chock it with vibrations will just result in a temporary fix since you don’t know if the problem is actually solved.
I guess there probably will be different opinions in how to resolve this matter, it just will boil down to what one thinks is the correct way to proceed.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, boyandhisdogs said:

I bought three batteries, two of which were dead right out of the package. The best of the three reads 1.40v so that's the one I put in the watch.

You should have a talk with whoever you're buying batteries from as the failure rates on brand-new batteries is not one good three bad that is unacceptable then if you're using a digital meter the no-load voltage of a silver cell should be about 1.59. It's really really fresh they might be as high as 1.6.

3 hours ago, boyandhisdogs said:

I have read that other watches have an AC point to jump start them

The purpose of the AC is not some magical jumpstart the purpose of the AC is an all clear to perform a reset of the circuits. When powering up watches usually liquid crystal or anything with complicated circuitry they power up in a random state and they will not usually function correctly. That requires an all clear reset if it's sometimes a really complicated watch there's even reset procedures beyond this. But this is a simple analog watch it does not require a reset.

People tend to forget that any watch sits in a case where somebody is opening up the case of a fairly regular basis to change a battery for instance they have a habit of breaking of the caskets watertight seals start disintegrate moisture gets in and other bad stuff. Even sometimes people changing batteries could be considered bad stuff when their incompetent. Quartz watches require an extremely clean environment to run in with time lubrication's will disintegrate environmental factors such as people changing batteries will speed that up considerably your watch needs an overhaul. Or a movement swap but where watch repair discussion group by Lily go with overhaul.

To help you on your quest of an overhaul here's the documentation for your watch towards the very end covers how to taken apart lubrication's required.

Datasheet_515_Complete_technical_documentation.pdf

[watchweasol]

.   Well there you have it all the best advice you could get on the subject,  Batteries sound Naff, use Renata or Sony,Maxcell  quality batteries cheap ones can and do leak    My own plan of attack would be the line release first to check the train is free then use the pulse tester to check the circuit block and coil, but as you know they are cheap to replace so overhaul would be good practice  win or loose.   good luck.

[clockboy]

I have one of these and have had some successes with it bringing what essentially is gummed up movements back to life. The alteranatives are purchase a new movement or strip and clean the movement.

 

 

[watchweasol]

the tool I use for quartz watches , quite comprehensive but not a cheap tool

1189 & 1168 WATCH ANALYZER manual (2).pdf

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

quite comprehensive but not a cheap tool

You didn't give us a price? It's amazing what you can do with other tools that are out there so this isn't the only solution Lotta tools are DIY if you know which I'm looking for.

[jdm]

Can use a cheap blue box demag to try to jump start a quartz watch.

[watchweasol]

Hi JohnR725         price was £150 but for what it does s not bad. The LED display checks battery condition and consumption and the pulses of the circuit block and . coil   on or off the watch  which is useful. for further information look up  Israel Alngeles  or   Le Arsi, these tools are hand build to order.

[jdm]

20 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

price was £150 but for what it does s not bad. The LED display checks battery condition and consumption and the pulses of the circuit block and . coil   on or off the watch  which is useful

Seems very expensive to me. For much less one can buy a top Sanwa analog multimeter, various models of digital ones, even a Seiko QT-99 when they appear for sale.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

price was £150 but for what it does s not bad

Converting to US dollars so I relate to that the current price is $196.91.  Then when looking at all the nifty features I don't see how it measures the current consumption?

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Seems very expensive to me. For much less one can buy a top Sanwa analog multimeter, various models of digital ones, even a Seiko QT-99 when they appear for sale

We have discussed this before some more on this group there is a DIY approaches.

Personally for resistance and battery voltage I use a $20 digital volt meter I don't even know what brand it is I bought it so long ago I can't remember. A bonus feature of this particular meter is but some meters will have this by design the voltage for resistance is low enough that you can check coils without turning on the circuitry. for current consumption my favorite personally as a analog meter.

Then for current consumption I have a small analog meter that has a 12 µA range. It works really really nice and I actually prefer an analog meter for current consumption. The meter that I have probably not made by Seiko made by somebody else does say Seiko. Citizen originally sold a similar meter with a whole package of having a battery adapter at a different analog meter. Then they switch to this analog meter so that both were selling the same meter. Bulova made something further tuning tuning fork watches and with a simple capacitor adapter it can be used to measure current consumption. Unfortunately the days of super sensitive analog meters appear to be coming to an end but really low current meters do show up on eBay.

The only thing that I have that was not off-the-shelf was I made my own variable voltage power supply.

So at slightly under $200 it may appeal for those people let can't do the DIY it does seem to be missing current consumption which I think is a really critical function.

 

 

[watchweasol]

I too built my own variable PSU with a digital read out for voltage  and  lower voltage working limit , and also has the capability of fitting an analogue meter for the current measurement, but for ease of use checking modules before fitting a new battery 1189 tester is quick and efficient. My DIY unit is up for modification  and maybe re design as time permits.

[jdm]

5 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

A bonus feature of this particular meter is but some meters will have this by design the voltage for resistance is low enough that you can check coils without turning on the circuitry.

That is a valid concern. Normally voltage for resistance measurement is not published or hard to find, so I used this great site to select a cheap one (AN101) with a low voltage. Unfortunately in my case it never arrived from China, but I'll try again.

https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMReviews.html

Quote

So at slightly under $200 it may appeal for those people let can't do the DIY it does seem to be missing current consumption which I think is a really critical function.

Clipping together two probes and wires shouldn't be a problem for one that intends to repair watches.

[rodabod]

I think that is a good call suggesting using a multimeter with sub-uA resolution. I didn't realise that they were now available so cheaply.

[boyandhisdogs]

Wow! Thank you all for so much information!

Here is what I have so far:

1) New Renata battery, 1.57v. I don't know what the deal was with the others. The worst of them was a Duracell purchased from Ace and the other two were DieHards from Sears. The Sears ones were cheap but I can't believe that I paid $5 for a completely dead battery from Ace .

2) I set my multimeter to its most sensitive setting and was able to read a tiny pulse every second across the coil. So now I know the electronics work, it must be something mechanical either gummed up or broken.

3) Today I got Moebius 8000 "Multi-Purpose" oil and a Bergeon Extra Fine oiler in the mail. I should have some anti-static tweezers coming tomorrow so I'm going to wait until I have those to start taking things apart. Even if I completely mess it up, I'm no worse off than I was before since a new movement is only $20 and a week away.  

 

For those who recommend lighter fluid... this is for cigarette lighters and not BBQ lighter fluid right? And will they all work the same or is there a particular ingredient that I need to look for? Also, are there anything else that might work? Maybe brake or carb cleaner? Hoppe's? I have nothing against using lighter fluid, I'm mostly just curious. 

Also, how bad is the lighter fluid for the non-metal parts of the movement? Do I need to take every gear out and clean it separately or can I just drop a little bit into the pivot with it still (partially) assembled? And if I do this, then does it need to be rinsed or can I count on it evaporating away before I can lube it?

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[rodabod]

It's "zippo" lighter fuel. Basically, refined petrol which they seem to refer to as naphtha in the US. It's very good at breaking down oils as a solvent. Carb cleaner may also work, but could potentially be aggressive. You make a good point about solvents and plastics. Basically, it's unpredictable, but lower exposure times makes it safer. 

It not the correct way to do things, but for a £10 movement like that, I don't see anything wrong with splashing some solvent on the pivots without removing the bridge. It's less effective, but may work in a pinch. If you really like the watch then I think Ronda may sell a similar movement with a greater jewel count.

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, jdm said:

Normally voltage for resistance measurement is not published or hard to find,

One of my problems is I've accumulated a lot of information. A lot of it buried in my brain printed material PDFs etc. trying to find where I saw something that is an issue. Going by memory I have 0.2 V.

Continuing my search I found three separate references with not entirely an agreement. The image comes from the user manual for the witschi Analyzer twin it's an interesting machine it will do quartz watches strangely enough it will not do tuning fork watches. So has the ability to time mechanical watches but it's missing a few key features of the normal timing machines as far as mechanical watches go. But snipped out the section on resistance they're going with 0.3 V.

Than the user manual for Horotec Tester interesting manual. Scroll down to page 3 the universal tests for all watches the most part and notice what it says for measuring resistance? So they like 0.2 V and recommend staying under  that.

Last PDF shows what looks like a volt ohm meter and Bulova's variable voltage power supply. Scrolling to page 4 he has a note on measuring resistance and he comments about setting the voltage 20.2 V.

Then there may be other references out there but now you have something in print I would probably stay with 0.2 V.

 

Horotec_19-108_manual Multifunction Tester for Quartz.pdf test-set quartz watch awci.pdf

[watchweasol]

Hi JohnR725,   the 1189/1168   Computes the load required to drive the movement and interprets this in the led array. The lower the consumption the fewer led's light up the higher consumption due to dirty/gummed up pivots the more led's are lit . Therefore if the whole array is indicating the watch is consuming too much current. So in fact the led array works very much like the analogue meter needle in indicating the load consumed. All this information is available on the Le Arsi site,     as  is a demonstration of the device and its smaller/cheaper cousin.  The 1198 also has audio which indicates the pulses in tune with the led's,,  

One of the best Analogue meters was the Avo 8 or Taylor 8 both ostensibly the same meter but very sensative,   I believe that with the introduction of Digital meters they fell out of favour as they were large size. Still available on the second user market though. In the world of electronics they were a must as was an oscilloscope.

[watchweasol]

Hi This manual from Witschi  which is produced for thr professionals will give you detailed information of the quartz watch.

Knowledge Quartz Watch.pdf

[jdm]

 

11 hours ago, boyandhisdogs said:

Also, how bad is the lighter fluid for the non-metal parts of the movement? Do I need to take every gear out and clean it separately

No, don't do that. The rotor is magnetic beside tiny, it is very difficult  to refit it alone, and much less together the other wheels. Again my recommendation is to not don't mess with fluids and oils, just give it a pulse with a $6 blue box or go to a shop that can do that for you.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Then there may be other references out there but now you have something in print I would probably stay with 0.2 V.

Yes or thereabout.  Some, but not many of the ones reviewed in my link above use  0.3V - 0.4V. Also to consider is the burden current which influences precision. 

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

the 1189/1168   Computes the load required to drive the movement and interprets this in the led array. The lower the consumption the fewer led's light up the higher consumption due to dirty/gummed up pivots the more led's are lit . Therefore if the whole array is indicating the watch is consuming too much current. So in fact the led array works very much like the analogue meter needle in indicating the load consumed.

I'm afraid that a LED array is not enough to precisely diagnose based oncurrent drawn, first it is not a sizable measurement, even if one can probably get to know how many μA each LED lit is. But most importantly there is a very noticeable variation in the current normally used, mainly depending on the "generation" of the watch, some use 0.3, some 15. Examples in the attachment.

Seiko Quartz Caliber Power Consumption & Battery Guide.pdf

Edited August 21, 2020 by jdm

[watchweasol]

Hi   point taken,    the 1198 is a diagnostic tool able to disseminate the working functions of the quartz watch and is Primarily used for that purpose,  there is no substitute for the highly accurate tools used by the professionals ie  the ELMA,     WITSCH.,   SEIKO and many others designed to process numbers of watches.  Using a cheap  2 dollar meter    is no substitute for the highly accurate  industry standard  the AVO 8 now no longer produced. This meter was used in most electronics labs and by the Ministry of Defence in their workshops.  and in the Aerospace industry electronics.      I always used one for setting up multi voltage power supplies along with an Oscilloscope .  These meters and scopes were calibrated on a 6 monthly basis.