balance wheel wobble

[Nora]

I've started trying to replace balance staffs in pocket watches. My first victim is an Elgin 0s model 2.  I've got the correct tools for the job. Disassembly went fine, but after installing the new staff the balance wheel now has a slight twist to it and wobbles. I "tried to fix it" with a pair of parallel pliers but have only made it worse.  It is now also out of balance.

My questions are, What did I do to cause this?  What steps should I take to avoid it again? Lastly how do I fix this one?

Thank you in advance,

Nora

[HectorLooi]

OMG! As a newbie you replaced a balance staff? 

How did you accomplish that?

[pubudeux]

7 minutes ago, Nora said:

I've started trying to replace balance staffs in pocket watches. My first victim is an Elgin 0s model 2.  I've got the correct tools for the job. Disassembly went fine, but after installing the new staff the balance wheel now has a slight twist to it and wobbles. I "tried to fix it" with a pair of parallel pliers but have only made it worse.  It is now also out of balance.

My questions are, What did I do to cause this?  What steps should I take to avoid it again? Lastly how do I fix this one?

Thank you in advance,

Nora

Hi Nora,

There are actually a couple other threads here of people who went through the same thing, that is wobble after replacing a balance staff. Here is one:

 

Another thing I can think of is maybe the wheel was damaged process of replacing the balance staff and needs to be poised. Here is an article talking about checking poise and poising a balance wheel:

https://www.great-british-watch.co.uk/how-to-poise-a-balance-wheel/

Hope this is helpful!

[Nora]

43 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

OMG! As a newbie you replaced a balance staff? 

How did you accomplish that?

I watched Mark's video on it twice and thought I can do that, so I did. 

[HectorLooi]

What method did you use to remove the old balance staff? Did you use a Platax tool, K&D balance staff remover or did you cut the rivet off on the lathe?

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, Nora said:

I watched Mark's video on it twice and thought I can do that, so I did. 

In my book,  The 80% you have already achieved is a prerequisit for the remaining 20%. . 

[spectre6000]

Jump in the deep end! That's how winners roll! That's also how you break things, but you learn more and more quickly that way. Kudos.

[Nora]

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Jump in the deep end! That's how winners roll! That's also how you break things, but you learn more and more quickly that way. Kudos.

The deep end is an illusion. You can float in 3 feet of water and not touch the bottom doing so. You can float in 300 feet of water and never touch the bottom. Both feel the same way, so it then comes down to how far from shore do you feel comfortable being.

Cheers!

[watchweasol]

Hi well done so far Now you need to learn trueing the balance in the calipers and poising the balance.  Firstly you need a pair of truing calipers or a truing jig so as to get the rim running flat then poise the balance in the jaws to check if there are heavy point, either of these being out of true will affect the timing rate . Pictures of the tools  below.

[Nora]

14 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

What method did you use to remove the old balance staff? Did you use a Platax tool, K&D balance staff remover or did you cut the rivet off on the lathe?

I have an "Automatic Balance Staff Remover" made by the M-B Tool Manufacturing Co. Sorry about the picture quality. I only have my what's only phone.

[spectre6000]

1 hour ago, Nora said:

The deep end is an illusion. You can float in 3 feet of water and not touch the bottom doing so. You can float in 300 feet of water and never touch the bottom. Both feel the same way, so it then comes down to how far from shore do you feel comfortable being.

Cheers!

https://xkcd.com/2155/

[Nora]

watchweasol

I won this on auction a couple of days ago. It is on it's way. I suspect that the set screws are missing judging by the picture on the box, but I can sort that out once it gets here. It otherwise looks complete to me. I'd eventually also like to get the other model you show but is not in the foreseeable future. An ultrasonic cleaner will come first.  

[Nora]

spectre6000

LMAO that's awesome! Thank you.

[HectorLooi]

Wow. Good job. Once you true and poise the balance, it'll be as good as new. 

[watchweasol]

Hi  you are nearly therewith the tools. the little wrench is for tweaking the balance arms,  Unusual for the staff removal tools to distort the balance they are supposed to keep the arms flat to the stake during removal of the rivit.

[VWatchie]

17 hours ago, Nora said:

I watched Mark's video on it twice and thought I can do that, so I did. 

Good for you, that attitude will take you a long way! Personally, I've been doing this for a few years now but so far I've only dared to secretly think about balance staffs a little. 

[rodabod]

Did you bend the arms or the rim? Or both. 

[Nora]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Good for you, that attitude will take you a long way! Personally, I've been doing this for a few years now but so far I've only dared to secretly think about balance staffs a little. 

I offer this to you as encouragement. Stop just secretly thinking about it.  Buy a watch with the part you want to work on already broken and give it a try. you will get one of two results. It will still be broken in the same way as you started with or it will work out. I call it the rule of 50. 50% it will, 50% it won't. It's like the old adage "you won't  know till you try. Worst case scenario, you try it and don't like it. In that case resell the movement and the tools for what you have into them, and move on. 

[VWatchie]

24 minutes ago, Nora said:

I offer this to you as encouragement.

Thank you @Nora! My post was meant as a friendly encouragement as well but I don't think it came through all that well. I'm deeply impressed that you would go for this rather tricky operation so soon. Watch repairing has many, many challenges, and I guess it takes a while before you've taken on most of them. Next on my list of challenges will be dynamic posing and resetting/adjusting pallet stones. Before this I was happy to succeed with replacing jewel bearings, adjusting end shake, and adjusting a hairspring. "They" say there's nothing magical about mechanical watches and Precision Mechanics, but I somehow hope I'll never get to realize it 

Good luck! 

[Nora]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

Did you bend the arms or the rim? Or both. 

I'm not sure. I took the staff back out and set it on the staking table. This is obviously  not to scale but an approximation of what I see. The actual gap I'm guessing to be about .002" /  .051 mm. It was a lot worse with the staff in.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, rodabod said:

Did you bend the arms or the rim? Or both. 

I start with the arms and some finishing touch on the rim. 

In case the wheel is out of round, a truing caliper is neccessary. 

[jdrichard]

So. Would you like me to make a video on how to straighten a Warped or Fouled balance using the proper calipers; etc?


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[jdm]

10 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

So. Would you like me to make a video on how to straighten a Warped or Fouled balance using the proper calipers; etc?

I did that for the first time a short time ago, at Master's workshop. Balance wheel alone, he handed me some sort of calipers with bronze (?) jaws, told me to hold the balance tight in one hand, grab the spoke that shows as high on the huit-ciffre, pull down a bit. So I did and after checking it was deemed "not so bad"  

Edited July 22, 2020 by jdm

[jdrichard]

I did that for the first time a short time ago, at Master's workshop. Balance wheel alone, he handed me some sort of calipers with bronze (?) jaws, told me to hold the balance tight in one hand, grab the spoke that shows as high on the huit-ciffre, pull down a bit. So I did and after checking it was deemed "not so bad"  

I have done this number of times. First, years ago, it was a balance that I warped by tapping too hard when installing a staff. Then it was the occasional balance in pocket watches I was repairing that were “out of round” and also not flat. I got pretty good at Rounding and flattening balances. As well, I have had to flatten the arms in a staking set prior to bending the balance back to true. I have also adjusted the balance of the balance with the screws and washers. I have also undercut screws to adjust the weight. So I thought a video on this topic with some discussion on how not to screw it up in the first place, followed by how to fix it.
And I have fixed a few.


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[Nucejoe]

20 minutes ago, jdrichard said:

So. Would you like me to make a video on how to straighten a Warped or Fouled balance using the proper calipers; etc?


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That would be very helpful.