404 Club

[AndyHull]

4 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

Is it possible this watch's original regulator was replaced? I've seen a case on a different watch where the regulator was replaced with one that would fit, but was not a perfect match to its predecessor.  I'm told it's sometimes done if the arm has broken off and the correct replacement cannot be found, or I've also seen it where a watch was converted to take an overcoil and they had to find a regulator where the pins were shorter and nearer to center.

That is entirely possible. I'll need to wait till it arrives and I have time to look it over.

[KarlvonKoln]

On 7/15/2021 at 6:44 PM, markr said:

$5 each at a yard sale today. The Omega has a 625 in it.  Both are running.

"$5 each".  I'm shedding real tears here.  I have no yard sales like that anywhere near me.  If I did, I'd be wearing out my wallet. You guys are the most awesome bargain hunters ever!

[AndyHull]

Hmmm... Maybe... You have to admit there is a startling similarity to this 1870s LeCoultre

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by AndyHull

[spectre6000]

Ooh... This just got interesting... Not that it wasn't already interesting, but that's another level of interest right there...

[AndyHull]

Just for completeness, here is the dial side. I tried to enhance what is actually a pretty poor ebay picture.

Its obviously difficult to make any observations, other than it appears to be pin set, with an enamel dial. It seems to probably have a centre second hand (or at least has the 0 to 300 markings round the dial to suggest this), and that the case, stem, crown and bow look to be intact and original.

I'm going to have to keep you all in suspense, as I will be away when it gets delivered, and for the next few weeks, so I may not get a chance to examine it any day soon.

[AndyHull]

Le Coultre & cie, who most probably produced the above movement, became Jaegar-LeCoultre, and have a very remarkable horological history. Some of which you can find on their website.

They of course are also known for the worlds smallest mechanical watch calibres, with the the Jaeger‑LeCoultre Calibre 101 and these things are absolutely tiny. LeCoultre specify them as having a volume of 0.2 cm3 and measuring 14 mm x 4.8 mm, with a thickness of 3.4 mm.

[AndyHull]

Some more Le Coultre history here.  -> https://curatedition.com/watches-and-jewellery/jaeger-lecoultre-the-manufacture-of-makers/

Quote

For the next 30 years from 1870 to the 1900s, as LeCoultre & Cie produced watch movements for the likes of Patek Phillippe, IWC and Vacheron Constantin, they were deemed as watchmaker to the watchmakers.

Patek, IWC, Vasheron Constantin. Somewhat more exalted company than perhaps the 404 club is used to, but hey, we take anybody as a member, regardless.

This is interesting as it may be that our mystery pocket watch calibre was made by  Le Coultre & Cie for one of these other companies.

Quote

In his quest to create high quality timepieces, Antoine invented the world’s most precise measuring instrument, the Millionomètre (capable of measuring the micron) in 1844.

To put that in to context, a micron or μm is a thousandth of a millimetre, or about 0.000039 inch for those still measuring in firkins and flagons . A micron is roughly a tenth of the diameter of a red blood cell, and also roughly the size of a single bacterium. A human hair (the bane of the watchmaker's bench) is somewhere between 20 and 100 μm 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by AndyHull

[spectre6000]

I did some digging on that cal. 101, and at least some were adjusted to multiple positions. Based on @nickelsilver's owning of the "most difficult thing I've done in watchmaking" thread (or whatever the actual title was), that seems like an absolute nightmare.

[AndyHull]

18 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

 ... at least some were adjusted to multiple positions ...

Just getting some of these small ladies movements to run with a reasonable degree of accuracy can be challenging owing to the small size and weight of the balance. I wonder what sort of accuracy figures JLC quote for the 101.

Edited March 8, 2022 by AndyHull

[KarlvonKoln]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Just getting some of these small ladies movements to run with a reasonable degree of accuracy can be challenging owing to the small size and weight of the balance. 

Man is it ever!  I've had a couple that, once they were cleaned and oiled, their accuracy was all over the place.  Regulating them was no picnic.  And getting parts can be a challenge too.  One that I worked on a while back (I'll post a pic if I can find it) had a broken mainspring and back then I could not get a replacement anywhere. I remember also wondering if my winder could even put a tiny spring into a barrel that small.

Edited March 8, 2022 by KarlvonKoln

[nickelsilver]

3 hours ago, AndyHull said:

Just getting some of these small ladies movements to run with a reasonable degree of accuracy can be challenging owing to the small size and weight of the balance. I wonder what sort of accuracy figures JLC quote for the 101.

For the 101 the manufacturer I do them for simply states "cyclotest" and they check the time visually at 24h intervals; for other calibers they are quite specific about delta, number of positions, amplitude, at full wind and 24h, etc. haha. With some effort you can get them within 60s or so over 6 positions, sometimes you get lucky and it's even better.

 

The big issue on small calibers is it's just not possible to scale down the tolerances to the size, so 0.005mm sideshake of the balance or fork on a 13"' watch with 0.09mm pivots is terrific, on a 6"' watch with 0.07 pivots it's a lot- and the pivot size is big for the balance, and the hairspring collet is oversize for the balance and spring (this makes a huge effect), and on and on.

 

But JLC get it right on some small pieces. The caliber 168, 8 lignes, is usually a very good runner. I've made a number of staffs for them (at least 3 different versions over the years of manufacture), and often can get a 6 position timing of 20s or so. The 838, more modern ultrathin, is also often within about that range, which is really surprising.

 

And to the other discussion above- yes, LeCoultre and later JLC were/are a major supplier of movements to many high end brands, as well as lesser known or prestigious brands, with corresponding quality levels. Sometimes you have to completely dismantle the watch and you'll find a tiny "lecoultre"stamped under the barrel bridge or something, sometimes no mark. They were like the Swatch group of the late 19th/early 20th century, haha.

[LittleWatchShop]

On 3/7/2022 at 4:41 AM, AndyHull said:

micron

100 transistors can fit in 1u x 1u area one one of the ships in your iphone

[AndyHull]

16 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

100 transistors can fit in 1u x 1u area one one of the chips in your iphone

As a result you can fit around 10^9 (1,000,000,000) transistors (fin FETS) on a single chip die, for something like an Intel Core i7

The individual details are produced at the 3 nano meter scale.

To put that in perspective, LeCoultres Millionomètre from 1844 could theoretically measure the size of individual transistors on a processor from 1984. Intel's 80386 from 1985 used the 1 µm process.

Edited March 8, 2022 by AndyHull

[LittleWatchShop]

1 hour ago, AndyHull said:

As a result you can fit around 10^9 (1,000,000,000) transistors (fin FETS) on a single chip die, for something like an Intel Core i7

The individual details are produced at the 3 nano meter scale.

To put that in perspective, LeCoultres Millionomètre from 1844 could theoretically measure the size of individual transistors on a processor from 1984. Intel's 80386 from 1985 used the 1 µm process.

The mechanical precision for that time was quite amazing.

Edited March 8, 2022 by LittleWatchShop

[AndyHull]

3 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

The mechanical precision for that time was quite amazing.

It certainly was. Also pretty amazing was the ability to resolve detail optically at those scales.

The single-chip microscope invented by Leeuwenhoek ((1632-1723) born in the Dutch city of Delft) and produced around around sixty years earlier than LeCoultres Millionomètre could resolve details down to around 1/700mm so pretty close to the 1 µm mark.

By 1878 Chase/Abbe (Zeiss) et al. had created the first oil immersion objective lenses, which were able to resolve things at pretty close to the limits of optical microscopy (approximately 250 nm). So by 1884 you could argue that we could pretty much see and measure the entire (optically) observable world i.e. everything resolvable with visible wavelengths of light.  

Edited March 8, 2022 by AndyHull

[AndyHull]

Since I've drifted this thread wildly off course once more, back on to the subject of microscopes, I thought I'd share this with you.

Now I'm not suggesting for a moment you rush out and buy these, but much like the Indian screwdrivers, I'm intrigued to see if these are actually as bad as I fear they might be. There are a number of very good Indian optical companies, so there is a chance that the lenses themselves are actually perfectly functional, if a little on the agricultural side. They do claim to be brass bodied, and "optical glass" so at lest they are not plastic junk.

I'm not sure I have the courage to fire off the money to find out. What I will say is that I have a number of second hand objectives, and I suspect that none of them cost as little as this. Even the cheapest Chinese lenses cost a lot more, so I am tempted. After all, how bad can they be?

Another item suggested by the alarmingly accurate Amazon Algorithm as being of interest was this Dissection Microscope, which might be useful as a movement inspection tool, with the right illumination

It comes with two lenses, a x10 and a x20

To give you some idea of their prices 800.00 Indian rupees is around $10.38 USD or £7.92 GBP and 1390.00 INR is about $18.04 USD or £13.77 GBP

Obviously if you pick up similar items, but with known quality optics they would be considerably more expensive. The dissection microscope actually gets some good reviews.

[AndyHull]

I've no idea what this is, but the blued screws and the intricate engraving suggested it was worth the 404 club price.

I actually paid just a few pennies more than the 404 club rules usually allow, but the postage was cheaper than it usually is, so I justified the spend based on that. The local 404 club membership committee can argue about this later, but since I have the casting vote, and am the only member of that committee I don't think it will be a problem.

I have no idea of the size, and it does have some damage to the dial, but it also has a full compliment of hands, and as I say, the workmanship, what little we can see, looks quite good. 

If nothing else, it will give me some fusee strip down practice, and maybe make a nice ornament.

[spectre6000]

I've come across watches that didn't meet the £4.04 posted purchase price, but had free shipping or some such. For those, the stickler in me says "Nein! Es mussen für unter vier Pound vierzig gekauft!" My inner stickler speaks German, and I'm pretty sure very poorly... I interact with native German speakers multiple times a day, but almost never in German. The loosey goosey startup tech culture American in me says the end result is the same or better, so it flies. That side tends to win out because this is all just a game for fun and education and nothing really matters and horological Nihilism. The 404 Club's Grand Presidenté Extraordinaire for Life Until He Gets Bored or Something of Colorado grants that there is precedent in favor of the motion as it abides with the spirit of the law. Also, post photos when it arrives.

[AndyHull]

13 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

The 404 Club's Grand Presidenté Extraordinaire for Life

I might need to get myself a t-shirt with that printed on it.

Maybe something low key and understated like this design. What do you think.

It might be a few weeks before I get a chance to post any pictures of my recent purchases, as I am "out of station" at the moment.

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by AndyHull

[spectre6000]

You'll address me by my full title, sir, "404 Club's Grand Presidenté Extraordinaire for Life Until He Gets Bored or Something of Colorado", or I'll have your head! Also, "hey you", "that guy", "some asshole", or simply "DUDE!" (correct pronunciation is stated in the 404 Club Members' Handbook of Rules, Laws, Mores, and Strong Suggestions as "with excitement").

Your shirt design is fine, but the aforementioned handbook requires the appropriate formal head dress go with:

As well as the accompanying butt covering:

I don't make the rules. Just enforce them rigidly.

[KarlvonKoln]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:22 AM, spectre6000 said:

For those, the stickler in me says "Nein! Es mussen für unter vier Pound vierzig gekauft!" My inner stickler speaks German, and I'm pretty sure very poorly... 

Ich verstehe Sie sehr gut. Mein Deutsch ist auch etwas eingerostet. Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.

[oldhippy]

English only please. 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

English only please. 

OH, I think that few non-English words in an enjoyable, not-highly-technical topic like this are just fine.

[oldhippy]

Sorry I don't. If we let it go this forum could end up with all sorts of languages. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone.  

[watchweasol]

We are on the forum multi national and as long as the technical enquiries are conducted in english which is under stood by most of the contributers.  Being multi national is what makes it interesting haveing the views and opinions of our world members relative to their own countries. A little light foreign language is ok we can always use the translate function. I marvel as to how many contribters from foreign shores converse with us in workable English, better than my Italian,German, Dutch etc. Always a pleasure to talk to you all.   My American and Australian is workable though.