Missing roller jewel

[Bill3]

I am working on an Elgin pocket watch grade 312.  It was an estate sale purchase and was not running when purchased.  I assumed that it was not running because it was very dirty and thought cleaning would solve all the problems.  I completely disassembled it and ran it through an ultrasound cleaner and rinse. It came out bright and shiny and when I started to reassemble for the first time I saw that there was NO roller jewel!  
So, what now? Can the roller jewel be replaced by a person with very modest ability?  I am including two pictures of the balance and roller plate.  I do not see any sign of where it was attached.  
Thanks in advance for any guidance.  
Bill H.

[Nucejoe]

You got to heat up some shellac. A used roller complete with jewel should be cheap.

[watchweasol]

As Nucejoe said  replacing it requires some shellac and a new roller jewel, thats the simple bit  fitting it in the right position is another matter.  It has to be vertical and in the correct location to drive the pallet.   Therefor the suggestion of a new roller with jewel is the practical solution and will cause you less grief.   cheers

[FLwatchguy73]

Your options are few I'm afraid @Bill3. Your best bet is to either acquire a complete balance with the roller table and jewel already installed, or find a donor movement with a good balance. If by chance you find just the table with a jewel, you set the jewel perpendicular to the "spokes" of the balance wheel away from the balance cock. See the image below for reference.

[Nucejoe]

I see the pic now, just opened. Missing the roller too.  Lucky you are in the US, not many were  marketted in my neck of the woods.

 

 

[JohnR725]

Always interesting problems with old American pocket watches. Roller jewel's can fall out the entire roller table cannot. This means somebody's worked on this watch prior to you and left pieces missing.

Unlike modern watches finding replacement parts is problematic. I have a website below you can find a parts list but you'll notice even for the roller jewel a reference that the size varied. Even if you had a roller table with the jewel it might not even fit. A balance complete would be a better option but you're going to have to adjust the escapement to fit the new balance because the sizes will be a little different. Even though these are mass made watches they were still hands adjusted and had variations in size throughout their production.

 

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

[FLwatchguy73]

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Always interesting problems with old American pocket watches. Roller jewel's can fall out the entire roller table cannot. This means somebody's worked on this watch prior to you and left pieces missing.

Unlike modern watches finding replacement parts is problematic. I have a website below you can find a parts list but you'll notice even for the roller jewel a reference that the size varied. Even if you had a roller table with the jewel it might not even fit. A balance complete would be a better option but you're going to have to adjust the escapement to fit the new balance because the sizes will be a little different. Even though these are mass made watches they were still hands adjusted and had variations in size throughout their production.

 

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

Very true. However, if the OP gets a donor movement from the same series, it should in theory be a drop in item. 

The link below is for a donor movement for under $30., I recommend you contact the seller to confirm the balance is good. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193330534646

[jdrichard]

Dave’s watch parts also could have a roller table with jewel installed. I have fixed many jewels and it’s not a beginner job. You need the proper tool to hold and heat up the roller table and the flake of shellac placed on the roller table jewel hole. Go see:

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/



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[jdrichard]

I also made a video on replacing a roller jewel.

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[Bill3]

This is an update on my missing roller jewel.  I had already looked for the roller jewel in the rinse solution, but looked for the first time on the drying rack.  AND THERE IT WAS!  It was still mounted in the roller table.  See the picture below.  Now I have two new problems; how to make the roller table to stay on and how to orient it so that it interacts with the pallet fork in the appropriate manner.

Many thanks to all who have responded to my plea for help.  Every response was helpful.

Bill H.

 

 

[jdrichard]

You can close the opening in the roller table with a dome stake.


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[vinn3]

yes;  good show.  if the clearance between the roller and the hole it too much,   the shellac will not hold in long.    vin

[Nucejoe]

 Mobile stud carrier lets you bring the impulse jewel "in beat" . The picture FLwatchguy posted above shows impulse jewel is to make a right angle with balance spoke, ie: perpendicular to the spoke. 

You best remove the balance complete and hairspring, to put the roller on staff, need to set the wheel on anvil and tap the roller tight in place.

 

 

[nickelsilver]

This is a very old watch, with single roller table, no mobile stud holder. Seems the jewel is happy where it is, that the roller table came off is a sign the hole is too large and yes a domed punch can close it so it frictions on well. Go slowly, when it seats on the staff with light pressure and the remaining distance to go is equal to the roller table thickness it's right, you can seat it fully.

[JohnR725]

If you don't want to modify your roller table to fit the staff you could use superglue. As a wild guess that's why it fell off in the cleaning machine. Whoever staffed it before you didn't use quite the right staff and they just superglue did on.

[jdrichard]

This is a very old watch, with single roller table, no mobile stud holder. Seems the jewel is happy where it is, that the roller table came off is a sign the hole is too large and yes a domed punch can close it so it frictions on well. Go slowly, when it seats on the staff with light pressure and the remaining distance to go is equal to the roller table thickness it's right, you can seat it fully.

And use a domed punch with a gap for the jewel.


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[jdrichard]

If you don't want to modify your roller table to fit the staff you could use superglue. As a wild guess that's why it fell off in the cleaning machine. Whoever staffed it before you didn't use quite the right staff and they just superglue did on.

Noooooooooop!


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[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Noooooooooop!

If are going to get technical about it I disapprove of closing the hole in the roller table until we know why you have to close the hole. In other words if somebody has replaced the balance staff with the wrong sized staff modifying watch parts to fit that is not appropriate. So modifying parts will mean someday in the future someone might have the correct balance staff and ponder why the roller table doesn't fit. This is why superglue is harmless as you're not modifying the part. Ideally you should probably replace the balance staff with something correct.

[vinn3]

15 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Noooooooooop!


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  Again, super glue raises it's ugly head !  I know of no good use for it,  if you must glue ---  use epoxy  vin

[Endeavor]

17 hours ago, vinn3 said:

  Again, super glue raises it's ugly head !  I know of no good use for it,  if you must glue ---  use epoxy  vin

Obviously a Bit off-topic; "but as for knowing no good use for it", perhaps talk to the aviation industry ?;

"Gluing a Plane Together

It is not widely known by the general public that aircraft wings are usually glued on to the plane, not riveted, bolted, or using some other mechanical fasteners. Which means that a thin layer of polymeric material is what is holding the plane up in the sky. It's not the wing or the engine or the Bernoulli principle [1], it's the polymer adhesive."

Super glue is a classic example of a polymer adhesive. Last, after all other options failed, I had no other option than to Super-glue a chrono seconds recorder hand to it's pipe bushing ..... holds up perfectly.

I wouldn't say as a "standard" procedure, but in some case ..........

Edited February 29, 2020 by Endeavor

[jdrichard]

If are going to get technical about it I disapprove of closing the hole in the roller table until we know why you have to close the hole. In other words if somebody has replaced the balance staff with the wrong sized staff modifying watch parts to fit that is not appropriate. So modifying parts will mean someday in the future someone might have the correct balance staff and ponder why the roller table doesn't fit. This is why superglue is harmless as you're not modifying the part. Ideally you should probably replace the balance staff with something correct.

I would make a new balance staff


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[Bill3]

I am sure that you are right, making a new balance staff is the "technically perfect" way to do this repair.  However, that is beyond my modest ability.  I have a lathe and do easy  things like repivot a clock spindal, but I have never made a balance staff.  I am leaning towards the super glue solution.  

Thanks to all who have participated in this discussion.

Bill H. 

[vinn3]

5 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Obviously a Bit off-topic; "but as for knowing no good use for it", perhaps talk to the aviation industry ?;

"Gluing a Plane Together

It is not widely known by the general public that aircraft wings are usually glued on to the plane, not riveted, bolted, or using some other mechanical fasteners. Which means that a thin layer of polymeric material is what is holding the plane up in the sky. It's not the wing or the engine or the Bernoulli principle [1], it's the polymer adhesive."

Super glue is a classic example of a polymer adhesive. Last, after all other options failed, I had no other option than to Super-glue a chrono seconds recorder hand to it's pipe bushing ..... holds up perfectly.

I wouldn't say as a "standard" procedure, but in some case ..........

  epoxy is good up to 200 deg. far.  super glue is not.   vin

[FLwatchguy73]

You align the table so that the jewel is perpendicular to the "spokes" of the balance. You face the jewel away from the cock. Please see the picture below for reference. 

[FLwatchguy73]

In order to put this in beat, you will need to move the hairspring collet. It's a tedious and delicate process. Mark made a video specifically highlighting this.

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by FLwatchguy73