Jump to content
  • 0

Missing roller jewel


Question

I am working on an Elgin pocket watch grade 312.  It was an estate sale purchase and was not running when purchased.  I assumed that it was not running because it was very dirty and thought cleaning would solve all the problems.  I completely disassembled it and ran it through an ultrasound cleaner and rinse. It came out bright and shiny and when I started to reassemble for the first time I saw that there was NO roller jewel!  
So, what now? Can the roller jewel be replaced by a person with very modest ability?  I am including two pictures of the balance and roller plate.  I do not see any sign of where it was attached.  
Thanks in advance for any guidance.  
Bill H.

44FAEF5D-B387-44BB-AE73-14257891DE79.jpeg

E381A02E-3FEF-406B-8F86-D1354360BE9E.jpeg

  • Confused 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

25 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

As Nucejoe said  replacing it requires some shellac and a new roller jewel, thats the simple bit  fitting it in the right position is another matter.  It has to be vertical and in the correct location to drive the pallet.   Therefor the suggestion of a new roller with jewel is the practical solution and will cause you less grief.   cheers

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Your options are few I'm afraid @Bill3. Your best bet is to either acquire a complete balance with the roller table and jewel already installed, or find a donor movement with a good balance. If by chance you find just the table with a jewel, you set the jewel perpendicular to the "spokes" of the balance wheel away from the balance cock. See the image below for reference.

Waltham-Pocket-Watch-Balance-Cock-And-Wheel-12-_57.thumb.jpg.b4bf24e2cd7bc531e383113f29e302d1.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I see the pic now, just opened. Missing the roller too.  Lucky you are in the US, not many were  marketted in my neck of the woods.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Always interesting problems with old American pocket watches. Roller jewel's can fall out the entire roller table cannot. This means somebody's worked on this watch prior to you and left pieces missing.

Unlike modern watches finding replacement parts is problematic. I have a website below you can find a parts list but you'll notice even for the roller jewel a reference that the size varied. Even if you had a roller table with the jewel it might not even fit. A balance complete would be a better option but you're going to have to adjust the escapement to fit the new balance because the sizes will be a little different. Even though these are mass made watches they were still hands adjusted and had variations in size throughout their production.

 

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Always interesting problems with old American pocket watches. Roller jewel's can fall out the entire roller table cannot. This means somebody's worked on this watch prior to you and left pieces missing.

Unlike modern watches finding replacement parts is problematic. I have a website below you can find a parts list but you'll notice even for the roller jewel a reference that the size varied. Even if you had a roller table with the jewel it might not even fit. A balance complete would be a better option but you're going to have to adjust the escapement to fit the new balance because the sizes will be a little different. Even though these are mass made watches they were still hands adjusted and had variations in size throughout their production.

 

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

Very true. However, if the OP gets a donor movement from the same series, it should in theory be a drop in item. 

The link below is for a donor movement for under $30., I recommend you contact the seller to confirm the balance is good. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193330534646

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Dave’s watch parts also could have a roller table with jewel installed. I have fixed many jewels and it’s not a beginner job. You need the proper tool to hold and heat up the roller table and the flake of shellac placed on the roller table jewel hole. Go see:

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

This is an update on my missing roller jewel.  I had already looked for the roller jewel in the rinse solution, but looked for the first time on the drying rack.  AND THERE IT WAS!  It was still mounted in the roller table.  See the picture below.  Now I have two new problems; how to make the roller table to stay on and how to orient it so that it interacts with the pallet fork in the appropriate manner.

Many thanks to all who have responded to my plea for help.  Every response was helpful.

Bill H.

 

 

F7843273-8C2B-4F63-B8A1-FAA5702CD87E.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

 Mobile stud carrier lets you bring the impulse jewel "in beat" . The picture FLwatchguy posted above shows impulse jewel is to make a right angle with balance spoke, ie: perpendicular to the spoke. 

You best remove the balance complete and hairspring, to put the roller on staff, need to set the wheel on anvil and tap the roller tight in place.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

This is a very old watch, with single roller table, no mobile stud holder. Seems the jewel is happy where it is, that the roller table came off is a sign the hole is too large and yes a domed punch can close it so it frictions on well. Go slowly, when it seats on the staff with light pressure and the remaining distance to go is equal to the roller table thickness it's right, you can seat it fully.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

If you don't want to modify your roller table to fit the staff you could use superglue. As a wild guess that's why it fell off in the cleaning machine. Whoever staffed it before you didn't use quite the right staff and they just superglue did on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
This is a very old watch, with single roller table, no mobile stud holder. Seems the jewel is happy where it is, that the roller table came off is a sign the hole is too large and yes a domed punch can close it so it frictions on well. Go slowly, when it seats on the staff with light pressure and the remaining distance to go is equal to the roller table thickness it's right, you can seat it fully.

And use a domed punch with a gap for the jewel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
If you don't want to modify your roller table to fit the staff you could use superglue. As a wild guess that's why it fell off in the cleaning machine. Whoever staffed it before you didn't use quite the right staff and they just superglue did on.

Noooooooooop!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
3 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Noooooooooop!

If are going to get technical about it I disapprove of closing the hole in the roller table until we know why you have to close the hole. In other words if somebody has replaced the balance staff with the wrong sized staff modifying watch parts to fit that is not appropriate. So modifying parts will mean someday in the future someone might have the correct balance staff and ponder why the roller table doesn't fit. This is why superglue is harmless as you're not modifying the part. Ideally you should probably replace the balance staff with something correct.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
15 hours ago, jdrichard said:


Noooooooooop!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  Again, super glue raises it's ugly head !  I know of no good use for it,  if you must glue ---  use epoxy  vin

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
17 hours ago, vinn3 said:

  Again, super glue raises it's ugly head !  I know of no good use for it,  if you must glue ---  use epoxy  vin

Obviously a Bit off-topic; "but as for knowing no good use for it", perhaps talk to the aviation industry ?;

"Gluing a Plane Together

It is not widely known by the general public that aircraft wings are usually glued on to the plane, not riveted, bolted, or using some other mechanical fasteners. Which means that a thin layer of polymeric material is what is holding the plane up in the sky. It's not the wing or the engine or the Bernoulli principle [1], it's the polymer adhesive."

Super glue is a classic example of a polymer adhesive. Last, after all other options failed, I had no other option than to Super-glue a chrono seconds recorder hand to it's pipe bushing ..... holds up perfectly.

I wouldn't say as a "standard" procedure, but in some case .......... :rolleyes:

Edited by Endeavor
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
If are going to get technical about it I disapprove of closing the hole in the roller table until we know why you have to close the hole. In other words if somebody has replaced the balance staff with the wrong sized staff modifying watch parts to fit that is not appropriate. So modifying parts will mean someday in the future someone might have the correct balance staff and ponder why the roller table doesn't fit. This is why superglue is harmless as you're not modifying the part. Ideally you should probably replace the balance staff with something correct.

I would make a new balance staff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I am sure that you are right, making a new balance staff is the "technically perfect" way to do this repair.  However, that is beyond my modest ability.  I have a lathe and do easy  things like repivot a clock spindal, but I have never made a balance staff.  I am leaning towards the super glue solution.  

Thanks to all who have participated in this discussion.

Bill H. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0
5 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Obviously a Bit off-topic; "but as for knowing no good use for it", perhaps talk to the aviation industry ?;

"Gluing a Plane Together

It is not widely known by the general public that aircraft wings are usually glued on to the plane, not riveted, bolted, or using some other mechanical fasteners. Which means that a thin layer of polymeric material is what is holding the plane up in the sky. It's not the wing or the engine or the Bernoulli principle [1], it's the polymer adhesive."

Super glue is a classic example of a polymer adhesive. Last, after all other options failed, I had no other option than to Super-glue a chrono seconds recorder hand to it's pipe bushing ..... holds up perfectly.

I wouldn't say as a "standard" procedure, but in some case .......... :rolleyes:

  epoxy is good up to 200 deg. far.  super glue is not.   vin

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

You align the table so that the jewel is perpendicular to the "spokes" of the balance. You face the jewel away from the cock. Please see the picture below for reference. 

20200229_114712.jpg.bd81a5968d1d4994e0509c479f479359.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

In order to put this in beat, you will need to move the hairspring collet. It's a tedious and delicate process. Mark made a video specifically highlighting this.

 

Edited by FLwatchguy73
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I have a variation to Mark’s procedure to put a watch in beat. I’ve attached some images and a reminder. As this is an American pocket watch with movable banking pins make sure there where they are supposed to be if you’re going to use them for alignment purposes. The unfortunate consequence of movable banking pins are they may not be where they are supposed to be.

Deviations from marks video I usually leave the pallet fork in. As you’re watching marks video he rotates the balance wheel talks about how the alignment should be. This is where I snipped out an image. I’ve added in a couple of lines one of which shows the alignment of the roller/impulse jewel exactly as he talks about. The deviation from procedure is the next line drawn from the center of the balance jewel extending through the stud outward. This is so that you can put a mark on the balance wheel which will correspond to where the stud should be. I’ve find a felt pen works nicely for making the mark with its liquid ink. Then removing the balance wheel from the bridge rotate the collet until the stud is in alignment with your mark. Then you can put the balance back in the watch and verify that it is correct.

 A minor problem of using the pallet fork to determine beat is there is play between the roller jewel and the fork slot so if it’s resting on the side of the slot rather than dead center you’ll be off on really tiny amount for beat.

Then the tool I use for rotating the collet is not a screwdriver. It has a very long taper and literally will drop into the slot. The problem with using screwdrivers they are usually too big people force them in and the collet will become loose. Or worst-case the collet will be cracked. Of course putting the collet on an incorrect sized staff will do the same things.

 

wr-2.jpg

roller jewel stud alignment.JPG

wr-1.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites


  • Similar Content

    • By thecodedawg
      I recently acquired an Illinois pocket watch that appears to have a screw on front and back. I was able to unscrew the front with great effort.  A lot of dirt and grime dropped out.  I need to get the back off.  There are no grab points so, I have tried a rubber ball and failed.  If it was a bolt, I would use heat, but that’s not an option.  I am afraid to use penetrating oil for fear of damaging the porcelain face.  I am assuming that the watch is in the 100 year old range but won’t know until I get the serial number off the movement.  
       
      it is clear, the case has not been opened in a very long time.
       
      What is the best way to open it?
       
    • By GoMSUSpartans
      Looking for advice.  Daughter (7) bought me a pocket watch from a second hand store.  The hunter case crown is missing a cap to open the front. It appears to be threaded.  Essinger seems to have the right replacement part. I can't figure out how to get the stem and crown out. I think this is an old Belle Suisse 8810. Help?  Also I know it is posted to wrong forum but this was the only non grayed out option.

    • By AdamC
      Hello,
      I have a lovely antique cylinder escapement pocket watch that I've serviced and got running beautifully but now I have a problem with the minute hand falling off. I think it's known as a pin hole fitting hand. On measuring the hand it shows approx. 0.40mm, and then on measuring the arbor diameter with the vernier guage, it's also 0.40mm so it's very near but won't even grip when mounted. Photos provided of the job.
      Does anybody have a technique I can use to get the hand to fit?


    • By eccentric59
      I'm as green as they come and need a scrap movement for practice. I scored this on an eBay auction for $0.99 (+ $4.99 shipping, LOL) First inspection shows it not in terrible condition. The balance and escapement move at least, but it doesn't wind (very stiff) and the keyless works are either rusted fast or broken (the stem does not move in or out). I'll be taking this very slowly, since it's educational more than anything else.
       
      Please note the high quality cardboard case ring. 
       

    • By DouglasSkinner
      I have an old Waltham pocket watch movement which is missing the impulse pin (roller jewel).  I have a limited number of actual jewels and since this is just a practice movement I thought I'd try to make one out of brass.  I've seen this several times in old pieces--usually a very sloppy job.  So I got some brass stock of the same diameter as the "D" in the roller table, filed it and burnished it to a high gloss.  Then I took a small, very fine diamond file and filed it half flat to form the "D"  I then polished the face using progressively finer sandpaper on a steel block.  This works fine--so far!  Problem is separation of the piece from the stock.  Again I used a small cutting file to do this but it doesn't leave the end very pretty.  So what I've done so far is to fit the good end into the roller table.  I then plan to shellac it in place and see if I can very carefully adjust the length and clean up the end.  Has anyone done this before?  Any suggestions as to how best to do it?  
  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • I did. Will do today. Thank you for the suggestions
    • First of all the inner part of the bearing will be particularly hard steel, so drilling with anything other than carbide will be quite difficult. Then, is this a new bearing? Or new rotor? Did the nut not fit before? Easiest thing would be to modify the nut, but will need a lathe for that.   If you really want to drill it, and have tools that will cut it, then fill the race with super glue. Drill. Soak in acetone to remove super glue (do one to remove, and then a clean soak to get any remaining residue).
    • Chances are the hairspring is touching somewhere. Othe possibilities are insufficient end play, try loosening cock screw, or severely bent balance pivots, inspect visually.
    • hey guys i need the nut (see pic 3) to go inside the hole (see pic 1 and 2) but as you can see if i try and drill it to size the bearings just rotate. I have tried putting a needle inbetween the bearings but that don't stop[ it spinning with the drill either. really just looking for some suggestions on how i can widen the hole without it spinning. cheers gary
    • There is absolutely no reason to install the balance without the pallet fork being fitted first unless you did some work on the balance (staff replacement, hairspring adjustment, pivot straightening / polishing, jewel replacement, etc). A few questions for you: - you did not by any chance lubricate Pallet Fork Pivots / Jewels? If you did, remove the Pallet Fork, clean it, remove any remaining oil from Top and Bottom Jewels, reinstall the Pallet Fork. That should resolve your "stopping" issue. - also, do not forget to very-very-very lightly oil contact surfaces of both Pallets with light oil. Not even a drop - just a touch with red oil pin. Good luck
×
×
  • Create New...