ETA dirty escapements

[CaptCalvin]

Why is that every escapement on brand new ETA movements that I see all look like this? Doesn't look right does it? Doesn't read bad at all on the timing machine though: clean lines, 310 amplitude and everything. So what's up with this? Is this just how 9415 looks like after some run-in?

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by CaptCalvin

[jdm]

No it doesn't look right. I guess only the person responsible at ETA factory may know what is that and why it happened.
But if you suspect it's lubricant all you have to do is to re-apply and check again after 24-48 hrs.

[CaptCalvin]

More images of the pallets. Also the escape wheel is covered in droplets of oil. Nobody else have ever had these observations on their ETA's? I still consider myself new to watchmaking but this seems to go against all the examples of good watchmaking I'd seen. All the ETA's I've ever seen in the 2 years I've been in this hobby, all brand new, looked like this...

Edited September 26, 2019 by CaptCalvin

[watchweasol]

Hi  are these watches made and assembled in switzerland or are they swiss parts assembled in Asia as many are to reduce labour costs that may answer the question.

 

[JohnR725]

The Swiss use something called Lubrifar to lubricate their escapement's.  It is a mixture of oil and Molybdenum disulfide. If you look on Pages 13 and 14 of the attached Omega document you'll see the reference to it.  As the Molybdenum disulfide is black in color that's what is your probably seeing.

Omega__8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication-2.pdf

[AndyHull]

15 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The Swiss use something called Lubrifar to lubricate their escapement's.  It is a mixture of oil and Molybdenum disulfide. If you look on Pages 13 and 14 of the attached Omega document you'll see the reference to it.  As the Molybdenum disulfide is black in color that's what is your probably seeing.

Omega__8645_WI_40_rules for lubrication-2.pdf 1.28 MB · 0 downloads

AndyHull adds trying a spot of Molyslip on the jewels to his very unwise 0W30 in the Timex etc. 404 watch lubrication experiments. In other news, Swiss watch shops start selling AndyHull voodoo pin cushions. 
 

Edited September 26, 2019 by AndyHull

[Nucejoe]

Would you gentleman decide which one.

i finally found a way to make a payment, I think, and need some escape lube to hear some tic toc. So if I get no 300 degrees I can always blame it on you.

Lubrifar?  Mkebius941 ?

TIA.

[jdm]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

The Swiss use something called Lubrifar to lubricate their escapement's. 

But that's an ETA, and they recommend 9415, so they should manufacture with what they recommend ?!? And any deviation from stringent quality standards is unacceptable, no matter where the factory is located. BTW I'm not aware of ETA assembling mechanical outside Switzerland.

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

i finally found a way to make a payment, I think, and need some escape lube to hear some tic toc. So if I get no 300 degrees I can always blame it on you.

Lubrifar?  Mkebius941 ?

I think the consensus is that 9415 is best. I have used it three or four times so far and got excellent results. The small bottle is so big that will last not one by 100 lifetimes, if anyone wants to have some just le me know.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Would you gentleman decide which one.

Lubrifar?  Mkebius941 ?

Don't blame us for not being able to make a decision blame the Swiss. It's all their fault over time continuously changing which lubrication's and not explaining why were supposed to change. Then the various manufacturers that have had their own private lubrication's that were never going to get.

Then don't worry about the Lubrifar It's been around for very long time and a very long time ago we could got a kit to apply it I'm sure it was astronomically expensive and it's been long since discontinued so other than coming on a factory escape wheel we can't use it.

Then I've attached Moebius's Current lubrication chart.

Then we have the other little problem of time? The problem with the tech sheets are they range over quite a time span and lubrication has changed over that time span. So like the general lubrication guide shows 9010 used to be the choice for escapement lubrication. Replaced by 941 specifically for that. Then 9415 came out originally for higher frequency watches as it stays in place better. Then you get an either or and now it seems to be just 9415 for almost everything. 

Then I think a lot of this has changed as we get modern timing machines we can see the effect of bad lubrication especially over time. We get the factories servicing their watches now recognizing that maybe the original lubrication rules just didn't cut it.   I think this is why you see the quantity of lubrication applied like the pivots has increased considerably because the old rules lubrication just didn't last over time.

 

 

tableEN.pdf tinf_9415_en.pdf tinf_941_en.pdf

[Nucejoe]

6 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Don't blame us for not being able to make a decision blame the Swiss. It's all their fault over time continuously changing which lubrication's and not explaining why were supposed to change. Then the various manufacturers that have had their own private lubrication's that were never going to get.

Then don't worry about the Lubrifar It's been around for very long time and a very long time ago we could got a kit to apply it I'm sure it was astronomically expensive and it's been long since discontinued so other than coming on a factory escape wheel we can't use it.

Then I've attached Moebius's Current lubrication chart.

Then we have the other little problem of time? The problem with the tech sheets are they range over quite a time span and lubrication has changed over that time span. So like the general lubrication guide shows 9010 used to be the choice for escapement lubrication. Replaced by 941 specifically for that. Then 9415 came out originally for higher frequency watches as it stays in place better. Then you get an either or and now it seems to be just 9415 for almost everything. 

Then I think a lot of this has changed as we get modern timing machines we can see the effect of bad lubrication especially over time. We get the factories servicing their watches now recognizing that maybe the original lubrication rules just didn't cut it.   I think this is why you see the quantity of lubrication applied like the pivots has increased considerably because the old rules lubrication just didn't last over time.

 

 

tableEN.pdf 351.41 kB · 0 downloads tinf_9415_en.pdf 305.82 kB · 0 downloads tinf_941_en.pdf 297 kB · 0 downloads

I see the effect by ear, darn thing wont run unless I lubricate escape teeth, you want to see it on video? And not just one movement. Pin pallet ofcourse. 

Thank for sending the links.  Best wishes. 

[CaptCalvin]

5 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi  are these watches made and assembled in switzerland or are they swiss parts assembled in Asia as many are to reduce labour costs that may answer the question.

 

All my examples are from Bulova(Accuswiss), Tissot, Victorinox, and Mido.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

But that's an ETA, and they recommend 9415, so they should manufacture with what they recommend ?!? And any deviation from stringent quality standards is unacceptable, no matter where the factory is located. BTW I'm not aware of ETA assembling mechanical outside Switzerland.

From what I can tell Lubrifar Can be found on Rolex, Omega and ETA plus probably other companies. Then what they manufacture with and what they recommend is not always the same thing. They have access to stuff that we don't have yes it seems simple manufacture and service with the same stuff but that isn't always the case.

So no matter what you have to lubricate the escapement and the current recommendation until something better comes along is 9415. Just don't use too much especially on modern watches you lose amplitude but that doesn't mean you necessarily have to go as extreme about this as Omega does in their technical documents.

[anilv]

Maybe these movement have been sitting a while, maybe years? Definitely not good.

Anilv

[AndyHull]

If this is moly grease, then it tends to coat metal parts with an almost permanent coating of molybdenum disulfide on metal parts and in this case, also on ceramic parts (the jewels) we have to assume.

Molybdenum disulfide is similar to graphite, both in colour and low friction properties, but molybdenum disulfide is better for certain applications. The grease may also contain some form of oil to keep it in suspension, and it may be this oil that is being liberated and then sputtering on the metal sides of the gear. Possibly the strange dispersion pattern you are seeing is due to the application of an oleophobic coating on those metal surfaces.

In other words, what we are seeing may be normal, for this application, however since watch manufacturers guard their secret sauce recipes very tightly, and thus, I can't find any online information to support these assumptions,  my observations are only speculation.

[JohnR725]

At one time one watch companies provided paper documents ETA did have a document about Lubrifar . So I remembered where I put it and have scanned it to a PDF you will note that the use of Lubrifar Occurred May 1995 is not exactly a new substance.

ETA No 29 Lubrifar 7.96.PDF

[rduckwor]

I have limited experience with MolyS2 in a different area.  I shoot precision rifle and some competitors use moly coated bullets for a variety of reasons.  I can tell you that once moly is used on a metal part that sees any pressure or significant compression (i.e. the inside of a rifle barrel), the moly is there pretty much forever.  These guys (not me fortunately) scrub and scrub their barrels and the moly stays behind.  it's a one-way-street for them.

 

I would suspect that the escape wheel teeth on watches lubricated with any moly greases or oils have a thin coating of moly in the metallic surfaces where the escape jewels contact the teeth both on lock and the slip phases of the escape movement.   Good or bad I cannot say.  I seriously doubt that there is any penetration into synthetic jewels, but I have no data to prove or disprove that aspect.  MolyS2 is dirty and get all over everything near it.  Like copier toner.

 

RMD