Seiko 5 Gaining - Suggestions?

[64americandeluxe]

My nine month old Seiko 5 with the 7S26 movement started gaining about 6 minutes per day when it was six months old. It happened rather suddenly at the six month mark and has remained that way the last 3 months (hasn't improved or worsened).  I have included Timegrapher results below from when the watch was new and now.

 

Is it possible it has become magnetized or is it more likely to be a mechanical problem?  I have a demagnetizer but haven't tried it on this watch, yet.  Do I have to remove the movement from the case to demagnetize it?

 

It is still under warranty, but I am not sold on the idea of shipping it across the country to the Seiko warranty centre.  Thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Roger

[swordfish]

Your problem is almost certainly a functional shortening of your hairspring. This may be due to either magnetization or dirt causing adhesion of loops of the hairspring. Place a cheap Boy Scout (or similar) compass over the watch. If it's needle sways back and forth in sympathy with the ticking, it's likely that magnetism is the culprit. I have demagnetized a watch successfully without removing it from the case, but my experience is limited and I don't know if that is always safe and effective.

[JohnR725]

The problem with watches under warranty is they usually get unhappy if you take the watch out of the case. So if you not concerned about the warranty removing the back and visually looking at the balance wheel and hairspring would be helpful. Magnetism can be a problem but on a modern watch it's less of a problem as the hairspring and balance wheel are supposed to be anti-magnetic.

[clockboy]

I would use the warranty. It is probably magnetism but the issue will be if you open the back the warranty will be invalid.

Send it back

[Geo]

I would zap it with a demagnetiser first. It doesn't involve opening the back and if it sorts it great, and if it doesn't take it back to the shop. If you have a simple demagnetiser, you may have to try it a couple of times to get the result you want.

[64americandeluxe]

Thanks for your input everyone!  I tried demagnetizing it (with the movement still in the case) and it didn't make a difference.  I thought about shipping it to the one and only Seiko authorized service centre in Canada, but these reviews have me rethinking that option. I think I might remove the case back and see if the hairspring is touching the regulator or hairspring stud.

Cheers!

Roger

[anilv]

Hi 64americandeluxe (may I call you 64?)

 

magnetism will usually get the watch running way fast...more like 6 mins fast over an hour.

 

The trace of the timing machine is all over the place... first thing to check is does the watch have a good power reserve? Shake the watch for a minute..maybe 2 mins would be better and then check on the timing machine again.

 

If no improvement I would imagine that something has happened to the balance, either the beat corrector or regulator has been moved, probably buy a drop or being slammed against a door.

 

A close-up photo of the balance will help, does it have a display case-back?... a before and after shot of the movement may help determine any movement of the beat corrector / regulator.

 

All the best.

 

Anil

[64americandeluxe]

Hi Anil,

Yes, you can call me 64. The watch hasn't been dropped or bumped. When I photographed the watch it had been worn all day, so I assume the power reserve was adequate. I agree that magnetism would have resulted in gaining more than the 6 minutes per day I am experiencing, but thought demagnetizing it was worth a try. The watch does have display-back, but I will remove the back to get a clear picture and post the pic to see what people think. Looking through the back I can't see any faults, but then agan, I don't have Mark's eyes. I'll post the pics in the coming days.

Roger

[anilv]

Hi 64...

 

well if its been worn all day then it should be fine...just thought I'd mention it.

 

Anil

[64americandeluxe]

Update:  I removed the back of the watch to inspect the movement more closely.  I checked to see if the hairspring had jumped out from between the regulator pins (a result of bumping/jarring) as this was a known design problem on the 7S26B, but was supposedly corrected on the 7S26C - this appears to be in order.

What is perplexing me, is the hairspring seems to be favouring one side of the balance wheel as if it is off centre.  Take a look:

I looked at the Seiko technical guide to see if this is normal or not, but the pictures in the guide are very grainy.  I also searched online for a picture of the same movement but that was inconclusive.  I ran into another post on another site where someone had the same question with this 7S26C movement.  

Is this normal or have I found the problem?  Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for your time!

Roger

[Marc]

Looks to me like you have hair spring coils sticking together. This would definitely cause an increase in rate.

Most likely cause is either magnetism or contamination.

 

First course of action for me would be to demagnetise the watch as this can be done without any disassembly.

If this fails then removal of the balance assembly for a quick dip in Onedip or lighter fluid to remove any contamination, and the coils should free up and decentred themselves.

 

If neither of these measures work (and you should persevere, don't give too easily) then it would suggest some mechanical damage must have occurred, deforming the hair spring, but this is highly unlikely if the watch has never been opened before.

[anilv]

wow... looks magnetized but I would have thought it would be more like 6 minutes an hour!

 

Try to demagnetise ... you may need to do it a few times... read the instructions (for the demagnetiser)

 

Anil

[Marc]

Just re-read my own post..... typo alert!!

 

that should read that once clean "the coils should free up and re-centre themselves"

[mk3]

I agree with Marc, definitely looks like the coils are touching each other in the image above.

[64americandeluxe]

Update #2:  So I just removed the balance cock from the movement.  I tried demagnetizing several times but this had no effect on the hairspring.  If it is contaminated, I can't see oil or anything else on it.  I will try cleaning it on the weekend just to be sure.  Here's what it looks like:

 

For comparison purposes, here's what a replacement balance wheel for my movement looks like (photos are from EBay ads):

 

Is there anything else I might be overlooking?

Thanks again!

Roger

[clockboy]

The hairspring needs centering. If you look at the hairspring pic from Ebay the spring has a bend just before the regular arm. This is to keep the spring centred. I also notice that the hairspring giving issues seems to have a lot of extra past the end stud which will make it run fast if the overall length is to short. Just moving this to give more length might resolve the centering issue. If not I think Mark has a vid on this & there are several others on the same subject. What I will say this if not an easy task it needs a steady hand & most importantly very fine good quality tweezers.

[Geo]

Look very carefully at the picture of the hairspring at about the twelve o'clock position and you'll see what appears to be oil contamination holding the could together. It may be an aberration of the photo, so ave a very close look.

[mk3]

I can for certain see that 3 coils are definitely touching each other.

[SeikoWatch]

mk3, on 16 Oct 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

I can for certain see that 3 coils are definitely touching each other.

I agree.. I saw the samething . I had the same problem with an old Seiko that I own. just demagnitized , cleaned the hair spring in the lighter fluid and relube the pivots and my watch runs very well..Sorry for the bad English guys . ;)

[ricardopalamino]

Well You've gone this far , so the advice and concensus from the members is to clean , demagnitize , relube the pivots and try it .  If that doesn't do it then clockboy's observation is next...center the hairspring .  Marks videos explains this as does other Youtube videos from perplxr and others . I worked up the nerve to try this after watching Marks video with good results , but I will agree with clockboy that you need a steady hand and fine good tweezers .  Don't drink 3 cups of coffee and try it .

[64americandeluxe]

Thanks for everyone's input! I will clean the hairspring this weekend and see if that takes care of it. Ricardopalomino, I agree that 3 cups of coffee prior to hairspring work is excessive. I will limit it to two cups today:)!

[ricardopalamino]

Okie - Dokie....

[64americandeluxe]

Update #3:  Last night I cleaned the hairspring and demagnetized it (again) but it seems that the hairspring issue persists (not centred).  I'd like to continue the diagnosis while trying to minimize the chance for mishaps as I am new to hairspring work.  I am thinking the next logical (easiest) step would be to disengage the hairspring stud from the balance cock and slip the hairspring out of the regulator so I can see what the balance assembly looks like compared to a new one.  I am aware of the delicacy required here.  Here are a couple of pics of the balance wheel after it was cleaned...

 

 

Geo: what looked liked oil causing the the coils to stick together (at the 12:00 position) was a reflection from the edge of the balance cock casting.

 

I am still baffled by what could have caused the hairspring to do this in the first place and how it needs to be corrected.  My other option is to take it to a trusted watchmaker in town and let him have a go at it, but I am keen to learn.

Over and out...

Roger

[Geo]

I've had another look, both studs look like they could be radially too far out in their location slots and pulling the spring over to that side. Having said that, I would have thought they would have been too tight in the slots to move accidentally.

[Marc]

I'm still not convinced that those outer coils aren't stuck together.

 

If it were on my work bench then before I started any hair spring manipulation I would try one last diagnostic ploy.

 

With the balance cock upside down on the bench as you have it in your photo I would lift the balance wheel out of its pivot and move it horizontally towards the 8 o'clock position (in your pic) to see if those outer coils separate with a revised position for the balance axis (in other words try temporarily re-centring the coil by adjusting it's centre relative to the stud and curb pins). If they do then the hair spring does indeed need to be re-centred.

If they don't then my next step would be to lift the balance wheel up vertically above its pivot so that the hair spring forms a cone. Don't go too far as you do not want to deform the spring (and if you're not comfortable with this then try instead turning the whole assembly over and let the balance wheel hang down suspended by the hair spring as if you were about to install it in the movement), and you should be able to see the individual coils separate in the vertical.

 

If those outer coils are stubbornly glued together (by whatever agent) then the vertical separation won't be even. Also, if they are stuck, then the shearing action caused by the vertical displacement of one coil relative to the next may help to overcome the adhesion, in which case you will see the coils separate with a ping. If that happens, re-clean (again) and try again.

 

If after all that the problem does prove to be a distorted hair spring then manipulation is your only option; at least you don't have any sharp kinks or bends to re-shape.

 

Good luck