Omega cal. 565 - low amplitude

[swiss2k]

Greetings everyone!

 

Recently bought an old Omega Genève, with a 565 movement. The watch had some water damage and by the looks of it, someone tried to repair it but failed.

The hair spring while oscillating was touching the regulators boot. Which led to low amplitude approx. 120-140 degrees. 
 

I took the balance assembly apart, and noticed the spring looked a bit out of shape. The result of me trying to straighten the hair spring you can see on the picture I added.

 

After re-assembly, the timegrapher shows improvement in amplitude and beat error. Now its about 225-235 and 0.2 error. Which I would assume is still a bit low. 
 

I do not see any wear on the pallet work or on any of the wheel of the drive train. The main spring is replaced. 
 

Does the hair spring look ok to you? What else could I check? 
 

Thank you in advance!

 

 

Edited April 22 by swiss2k

[mikepilk]

50 minutes ago, swiss2k said:

Does the hair spring look ok to you? What else could I check? 
 

Hairspring looks OK. What else to check - all the usual stuff !

Endshake in barrel arbor, not too much play in arbor bridge hole. Check gear train runs freely,  end shake on all gears and balance, jewels dirty/damaged/loose(pallet/roller), too much tension on centre seconds spring etc etc 

How long does the balance swing (no pallet) when given a blast with a puffer?

Edited April 22 by mikepilk

[swiss2k]

11 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Hairspring looks OK. What else to check - all the usual stuff !

Endshake in barrel arbor, not too much play in arbor bridge hole. Check gear train runs freely,  end shake on all gears and balance, jewels dirty/damaged/loose(pallet/roller), too much tension on centre seconds spring etc etc 

How long does the balance swing (no pallet) when given a blast with a puffer?

I should have probably mentioned that I did clean all the parts before assembly.

Basically you think there might not be enough power delivered to the pallet fork? 
 

Will double check everything, thank you!

[Waggy]

2 hours ago, swiss2k said:

After re-assembly, the timegrapher shows improvement in amplitude and beat error. Now its about 225-235 and 0.2 error. Which I would assume is still a bit low. 

Are the timegrapher results you show immediately after re-assembly/lubrication? If so, these numbers often improve after 24-48 hours (20-50 degrees) as the oils and parts bed into their respective positions. Hold you nerve and re-test after 48 hours on a full or near-full wind an you may be pleasantly surprised.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, swiss2k said:

After re-assembly, the timegrapher shows improvement in amplitude and beat error. Now its about 225-235 and 0.2 error. Which I would assume is still a bit low. 

Typically for this group anything less than 300° is unacceptable.

What's interesting is the Swiss Do not pay attention to this group at all. Swiss are more concerned about timekeeping than they are amplitude. Then thinking about timekeeping I don't suppose you can show us the watch in perhaps three positions on the timing machine? Like dial-up and dial down And crown down would be nice it often helps for diagnostics

Oh and thinking about amplitude I see your timing machine is 52° and according to the specs you're supposed to have 49° so that will cause a minor change of the amplitude.

Than very very disturbing for this group so I would suggest the old-timers run away and don't even look but amplitude at 24 hours for this watch is 160°. As I said the Swiss are only concerned about timekeeping. So at the end of 24 hours you have 160°.

Then the definition of amplitude at 24 hours is

Then they three position as an Omega uses for timing for three position watches like yours is found in the image below although I would still make sure you do dial-up and dial down because those should be identical and other good diagnostics do that

 

2 hours ago, Waggy said:

/lubrication?

Then thinking of lubrication what sort of lubrication's did you use and how did you lubricate the escapement?

 

[Jon]

7 hours ago, swiss2k said:

The main spring is replaced. 

You've replaced the mainspring with a new one?

48 hours after oiling the train and pallets can increase the amplitude dramatically. I serviced a vintage Omega 552 and saw an increase of about 30 to 40 degrees after two days.

[VWatchie]

It could be that the amplitude is higher than your Timing Machine shows. In my experience, TMs unfortunately don't always show the truth. Try to increase or decrease the gain on your TM (if it has one) and see what it does for the readings. Or, you can try to mount the movement holder on the microphone to decrease the noise from the movement which in my experience is necessary for Omega calibre 268 (the only Omega calibre I've serviced).

You might find this post and other posts in the same thread interesting!

 

[swiss2k]

 

Thank you everyone for your replies. 

Main spring. Is new. Not an original Omega, but I did get it from Cousins, and they advertised it as "the one". Also checked the measurement, and those were same to Omega`s. 

Lubrification. D-5 on those with the most load, 9010 gear train, 9415 on the pallet fork jewels. 

Amplitude. After +- 2 days, the amplitude did not change, stays around 220 deg.

Lift angle. My bad, for got to set it back to 48. It always resets...

Gear train. I do not see any excessive play... well at least all have the same play, per my judgement.

Balance. Super free. No axial play. An it seams it feels much better with the spring not rubbing on its self (after straightening).

Mains spring barrel. The arbor is free, but is the play a bit excessive? (on video)

 

Thank you!!

Edited April 22 by swiss2k

[Endeavor]

2 hours ago, swiss2k said:

9415 on the pallet fork jewels. 

Funny enough, I'm working on an Omega pocket watch which has an amplitude of over 300 and I'm planning to use 9415 to bring it down.

So far, my experience with this "wonder-grease" 9415 has been rather poor, especially on older movements. When changed the oil on the pallet jewels / escape-wheel to Dr.Tillwich 1-3, which would be about the equivalent of Moebius 9010, the amplitude gain is remarkable.

Try that .....

And as JohnR725 asked, what is the amplitude after 24hrs?

My 50-years old Omega 861 runs 250-255 at best when fully wound, around 215-220 after 24hrs. It gains every day 1 second, day after day, week in, week out. Perhaps not an amplitude "high-flyer", but It's the best time-keeper I ever had!

 

Edited April 22 by Endeavor

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

nd as JohnR725 asked, what is the amplitude after 24hrs?

My 50-years old Omega 861 runs 250-255 at best when fully wound, around 215-220 after 24hrs. It gains every day 1 second, day after day, week in, week out. Perhaps not an amplitude "high-flyer", but It's the best time-keeper I ever had!

So for the group your watch is a failure. As the amplitude is unacceptably too low. But as far as Omega is concerned they would be very happy.

[Jon]

4 hours ago, swiss2k said:

 

Thank you everyone for your replies. 

Main spring. Is new. Not an original Omega, but I did get it from Cousins, and they advertised it as "the one". Also checked the measurement, and those were same to Omega`s. 

Lubrification. D-5 on those with the most load, 9010 gear train, 9415 on the pallet fork jewels. 

Amplitude. After +- 2 days, the amplitude did not change, stays around 220 deg.

Lift angle. My bad, for got to set it back to 48. It always resets...

Gear train. I do not see any excessive play... well at least all have the same play, per my judgement.

Balance. Super free. No axial play. An it seams it feels much better with the spring not rubbing on its self (after straightening).

Mains spring barrel. The arbor is free, but is the play a bit excessive? (on video)

 

Thank you!!

That endshake of the barrel arbor is huge! That needs closing up. I'm assuming the barrel cover has been bent in a convex way to create that excessive shake. Put the barrel cover on a staking block and check how flat it is then bend it to suit a better endshake

[swiss2k]

Quick update. Both the barrel and the cover were bent. I did manage to strengthen them. The arbor seems to spin freely. 
The amplitude is still the same, at 49 its around 217-222. I was expecting some improvement. Will check again in 24 and 48h. 
 

 

Edited April 23 by swiss2k

[Jon]

When you move the index which changes the timing from an extreme fast to an extreme slow, is there a big change in beat error? Obviously there will be a big change in timing.

If there is a big difference in BE then this is strongly inferring the the end-curve of the hairspring isn't set correctly or/and the collet is central to the jewel on the balance cock, because the hairspring that is breathing between the curb pin and boot is being pushed and/or pulled when you move the index from left to right. Also not having the hairspring set correctly can dramatically reduce the amplitude.

A quick check is to take power off the movement and move the index from extreme fast to slow and with high magnification see if the hairspring sits nicely between the curb pin and boot at all times (give the balance a spin and watch the hairspring - has it got total freedom?) or if it moves by being pushed or pulled by the curb pin or boot. I'm guessing it is the latter.

I think that may be a possibility to your problem.

[swiss2k]

Hi @Jon,
so, from one extreme to another the beat error is 0.1(min.pos) to 0.2(msx.pos), and as you mentioned the rate does up and down dramatically. Also checked the position of the collet, and the collet is not central to the jewel on the balance cock. Balance moves freely, per my understanding.

 

So, after 24h the ampl. fell down by approx 20 deg, which I would assume is expected. After adjusting the endshake I believe I gained around +10 deg. of balance movement. Which is great, and overall the balance is not at 220'ish deg.

 

What I did next, some might think is non-orthodox, but was wort a try. I too the mainspring out, checked again for endshake and if the pin moves freely, and cleaned everything. Usually when installing the mainspring I would use some barrel grease on the barrel walls, install the spring and put a 2-3 drops of D-5 oil on top of the wound spring and in the places where the arbor sits. This time I took the spring and applied a ultra this coat of Molykote Dx paste on the whole spring, before installing it in to the barrel, and added some oil to the arbor as usual. 

The result improved, at a full wind the balance produces about 230-237 deg. @JohnR725 I'm getting closer to 300

 

What I am noticing, there is a fluctuation in amplitude. With time it would rise and drop about total 8-10 deg in an interval about 2 minutes. I assumed this ruled out the power transfer from the barrel itself. So I took the gear train out, cleaned and lubed. 

Edited April 25 by swiss2k

[JohnR725]

23 minutes ago, swiss2k said:

I too the mainspring out,

On 4/22/2024 at 9:44 AM, swiss2k said:

Main spring. Is new. Not an original Omega, but I did get it from Cousins, and they advertised it as "the one". Also checked the measurement, and those were same to Omega`s.

as you took the mainspring out what did it look like? It's amazing how much amplitude you can get if the mainspring actually has the proper shape.

last week I was doing a 12 size Hamilton and was very much surprised with the beautiful back curvature the mainspring had. Then the watch had a really nice amplitude the group would be so proud it was 350 until I dropped the lift angle down to 38 that drop the amplitude quite a bit below 300. then with the beautiful back curve it still had really nice amplitude the next day. I really wish all my mainspring's look like this as the watch had beautiful amplitude the next day. So many of the aftermarket pocketwatch Springs I see now do not have anything resembling a back curve may be a slight curve and that's about all. They still work but they just don't work as nice as a properly made spring.

then Omega as all sorts of nifty technical documentation unfortunately every single corner is watermarked with where it came from who downloaded it etc. very paranoid company. On the other hand I will snip out images like from the document on recycling a mainspring barrel. for instance here's the section on what your mainspring should look like.

On 4/22/2024 at 12:07 AM, swiss2k said:

The watch had some water damage

water damaged a lot of times means rust was there rust on this watch?

[swiss2k]

@JohnR725 now that you've mentioned it. This is actually the second aftermarket spring (same place and brand) I ordered as the first one broke. The eye on which the arbor pulls on, broke off on the first spring after the first wind, and also it was a bit to large for the arbor. Looked like on one the second picture in the 2nd group.

The second one was exactly the same, I had to bend it a bit, to give it a more prominent curve to the end of the spring so that the arbor catches the eye.  Also I believe both were 5-10mm shorter. Not that I writing that, I feel a bit dumb, as the spring might actually been the problem all along, although its advertised as a substitute to the original... 

 

 

[swiss2k]

No matter what I did, I could not get the amplitude more than 240 deg. At least there is 0.2 beat error and minus 1-2 s/d. 
So, probably not the happy end I would have hoped for, but still I think the watch turned out quite nice. You be the judge of that.

Thank you everyone for your help!
 

[RichardHarris123]

@JohnR725 has pointed out many times that the Swiss don't care about amplitude, the timekeeping is the most important.  Give yourself a  pat on the back, great beat error and timekeeping, nothing to be disappointed about. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, swiss2k said:

No matter what I did, I could not get the amplitude more than 240 deg. At least there is 0.2 beat error and minus 1-2 s/d. 
So, probably not the happy end I would have hoped for, but still I think the watch turned out quite nice. You be the judge of that.

6 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

has pointed out many times that the Swiss don't care about amplitude, the timekeeping is the most important.  Give yourself a  pat on the back, great beat error and timekeeping, nothing to be disappointed about. 

can I ask why you're not happy?

did you notice that the acceptable low 24 hour amplitude of this watch is 160°? is there any possibility that a watch company could manufacture a watch that could actually run at a low amplitude and keep time? so if they can run at 160° at 24 hours and keep time then they probably would keep time at 240° which yours seems to be doing?

then if you're really unhappy with this I would recommend purchasing an original Omega mainspring. Just because the aftermarket have numbers like an Omega mainspring it doesn't mean it's the same thing. Then I would also recommend replacing the escape wheel and the pallet fork. This is what they do in the Swatch group service center if they are unhappy with anything on the other hand they have an infinite supply of spare parts.

 

 

[swiss2k]

Hi @JohnR725,

I would say its a happy end, the watch was in a much worser state and turned out quite nice(imho). I just hoped for a higher result after all that work. 
I agree with you, as long as it runs and keeps time, Im happy. Thank you for your advices! 

 

[Endeavor]

13 hours ago, swiss2k said:

No matter what I did, I could not get the amplitude more than 240 deg.

A nice looking watch !!

Did you try 9010, instead of the 9415, on the pallet jewels / escape wheel? And if you did, did you notice a difference?

[swiss2k]

2 hours ago, Endeavor said:

A nice looking watch !!

Did you try 9010, instead of the 9415, on the pallet jewels / escape wheel? And if you did, did you notice a difference?

Thank you!
 

Yes I did. I did not notice a difference. Although 9415 is advertised as a thixotropic grease (and I did had high hopes for it), the only advantage at this point I see is that its “easier” to apply than an oil (if one does not use epilame). But this is subjective, I guess.

What I did notice though, if you apply a bit too much grease, that definitely slows down the movement. Oil in this case is a bit more forgiving, as its super thin, and it would usually just spread out.  Again, imho.

[JohnR725]

47 minutes ago, swiss2k said:

9415 is advertised as a thixotropic grease

47 minutes ago, swiss2k said:

What I did notice though, if you apply a bit too much grease, that definitely slows down the movement. Oil in this case is a bit more forgiving, as its super thin, and it would usually just spread out.  Again, imho.

The problem with oil in particular 9010 is it likes to spread. This is why you're supposed to use epilam anywhere it's used to keep the oil in place. Then you want to splurge on money you could buy 941 it's actually an oil that existed before 9415.

Then the problem with the grease yes it stays in place but if you have too much you lose amplitude. Then if you get really obsessed with this he would follow Omega's recommendation for escapement lubrication.

One of the problems with internal documents of the watch companies is typically are never going to see Them.But a few of them out in the wild for instance at this link Below I searched for the keyword of working. In particular working instructions of the Omega watch company for which there is way more than This but this is all they have. So you want to download number 40 as were going to talk about that and also download Number 81. Plus anything else that looks interesting

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=Working

Then number 40 covers lubrication of the watch. Most interesting is lubrication of the lever escapement under three different conditions with Lubrifar Which you probably no longer have has been washed off without which is what you have and then a course with epilam. Notice how they go supers super minimalistic with the 9415 because if it's too heavy you lose amplitude. Then if you lose amplitude the group will be disappointed with you and the end of the world will come.

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

5 hours ago, swiss2k said:

What I did notice though, if you apply a bit too much grease, that definitely slows down the movement.

I tried the Moebius 9415 from any sensible amount, down to a microscopic drop (or "super minimalistic"); the size of droplet which makes you really wonder why one would/should apply anything at all? But to no avail, consistently a lower amplitude compared to my Dr.Tillwich 1-3.

Of course, as John mentioned above, the Dr.Tillwich 1-3, just like the Moebius 9010, likes to go somewhere else. Since short however, I'm the (proud?) owner of a bottle of Moebius Fixodrop. Can't say that I'm a proud owner of the 9415.

So far, I haven't seen or discovered the "magic" of the 9415.

Meanwhile, Moebius () has my money though.........

Edited Tuesday at 01:06 PM by Endeavor