Ultrasonic Cleaners

[Stretch]

Cheers JDM, thanks for the update and link, i'll check it out.

[Nucejoe]

 Damage due to vibration to a massive structure( balance  pivot in this case) has to do with the structure's natural frequency ( google definition of natural frequency) so when a structure is exposed to its natural frequency it resonates the frequency, natural frequency of a massive structure is inherent to the structure. ( google mechanical resonators) that is; vibration energy actually gets transfered to the structure and adds up. 

  This phenomenon caused collapse of the bridge in San Francisco, it can do the same to tunnels or destroy a mega dams.  That is how come you see driving signs prohibitting the hunking of your car's horns inside tunnels or on bridges. Its not that more powerful frequency destroys,  rather its the resonant frequency that opens the gate for energy of vibrations to get imaprted to a massive structure. 

Physics of it gets a bit more involved, where subsequent vibrations of diferent wave length come to the picture, sum of subsequent vibrations can create huge vibrations ( google analysis by fourrier functions on the subject) 

In short a weaker ultrasonic can destroy a pivot whilst a stronger machine may not or a machine might destroy pivot of certain size/caliber/make and remain harmless to other brands. 

Regs

 

 

 

[jdm]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 Damage due to vibration to a massive structure( balance  pivot in this case) has to do with the structure's natural frequency

That's the theory, beside a watch parts is not structure under stress. But the practice of many hundreds washes (thousands ?)  done by Master nickelsilver, and hoards of other watchmakers including myself, tells us that metal parts in US don't dissolve in US. Then of course everyone is free to believe and do as he likes. 

[Nucejoe]

 JohnR also reported having never seen or heard of a pivot getting damaged in Ultrasonic. so it perhaps could be that professional cleaning machines are safe or professional like Nickelsilver and JohnR simply don't work on cheap watches and balance  pviots of good quality watches are concievably made of better grade alloys. 

I have only lost pivots of Seiko balance and wonder if that can tell us something. 

Regs

[jdm]

7 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I have only lost pivots of Seiko balance and wonder if that can tell us something. 

Not sure what that says. At the beginning of my learning I insisted in cleaning Seiko mov.t including balances in my cheap ultrasonic at max power for a long time, because I had read that parts had to be so super clean. But that did made the watch run any better, did not break the balance, but broke the machine after a while.

[HectorLooi]

I have written about the dangers of using ultrasonic cleaners many times. But recently I discovered something that might explain why some of us report that ultrasonic cleaning is safe.

Recently I started using my ultrasound to clean watches. I use a jam jar filled with L&R #111 and another two with rinse #3. I place my parts in a tea infuser and small parts basket and ultrasound them for 10 minutes each. And the results are quite spectacular. The parts are all shiny and bright, the jewels are gum free so far no damage whatsoever. 

I suspect that using a thick walled glass jar and placing the parts in a basket reduces the ultrasonic energy to a point that it doesn't damage watch parts.

I also suspect that waterless cleaners transmit ultrasonic energy less well than water based ones.

My mentor was the one who taught me to use my ultrasonic this way. He even puts the balance wheel and pallet fork in to clean.

Try it on some scrap parts and tell me what you think. 

( Don't put tuning fork index and pawl fingers in this way. The jewels at the tip will fall off! )

[clockboy]

I have seen vids of the dangers of ultrasonic cleaners where a piece of tinfoil is destroyed. However when I used to use a ultrasonic cleaner for watch parts I never encountered any issues but as a precaution I always cleaned the balance/ hairspring in a de- greaser not in the ultrasonic cleaner. There is a guy on YouTube  Richard Perrett” who services hi end watches and he always uses a ultrasonic cleaner. I did write to him asking if he has ever has considered purchasing  a dedicated watch cleaning machine and his reply was that he gets good results in the ultrasonic. 

[Marc]

1 hour ago, clockboy said:

I have seen vids of the dangers of ultrasonic cleaners where a piece of tinfoil is destroyed

The tin foil trick to test that your ultrasonic bath is working can be quite spectacular and is often used to demonstrate the perils of using ultrasonic cleaners for delicate items, however, I think that a sense of perspective is required to keep things in context.

The video above shows how damaging ultrasonic cleaners can be when cleaning aluminium foil, something that I haven't yet needed to do as part of my watch making endeavours. I decided to see how thick aluminium foil is so I measured two sources, one from a chocolate bar wrapper, and the other a piece of heavy duty kitched foil. The chocolate bar wrapper was just 18 microns thick, and the heavy duty stuff just 20 microns, so virtually no bulk or mass to absorb the cavitation energy from the U/S bath (it's cavitation that actually produces the scouring effect, not just simple vibration). Also this is aluminium which is pretty soft in the grand scheme of things; it's not really surprising that the foil comes out looking a bit rough.

By comparison balance staff pivots may go down to 50 microns, at least 2.5 times thicker than the foil, and they are made of steel which has a higher density than aluminium, and is considerably harder, and that's just balance staff pivots, virtually every other component in a watch is bigger and heavier and better able to survive the trauma unscathed. So just how useful is the foil test as a means of assessing the suitability of ultrasonics for cleaning watch parts? And has anyone ever done the test with a piece of 20 micron steel or brass for comparison? I may have to try that.

The other point to consider is if ultrasonic cleaning is so bad for movement parts, why have so many dedicated watch movement cleaning machines incorporated it over the years?

I do have a small U/S bath, but I only use it for cleaning case and bracelet parts which it is very good at. Movements get cleaned using an old Elma cleaning machine that doesn't have a U/S capability, and that also does a very good job. If it did have a U/S capability though I would have no qualms at all about using it.

I suspect that the use or otherwise of ultrasonic baths for movement parts is one of those subjects (like oiling, or polishing v buffing) that people will always have differing opinions on but at the end of the day it's a case of "the right approach is whatever works for you".

[luiazazrambo]

My only problem with the ultrasonic so far was that I partially removed the plating from the main plates of an old PUW 60 movement. Now we cannot probably say that it was the fault of the U/S device, it might be accounted for a number of things like : manufacturing error/ aging / earlier cleaning treatments / it was one of my early attempt and I ran the U/S too long as I thought the longer is the better? My first cheap Chinese U/S device did not last long, but probably i did not use it correctly: instead of putting the parts (in a jar with cleaning /rinsing liquid) into the provided basket/hanging them in the water i put my jar at the bottom of the tank. So putting some weight on top of my only transducer. It burnt, not sure if it happened because of this though. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by luiazazrambo

[jdm]

32 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

It burnt, not sure if it happened because of this though. 

Don't worry, these blow easily, same happened to me and many others. On the last one the transducer still works but the PTC heather blown instead. I must have used it 3 or 4 time for 5 mins max. Cheap poor quality components, that's all. 

[Legarm]

 I made a comment on here at the outset of this debate, some 7 years ago and the same thing is being discussed, now, as was then.

My particular take on the whole aspect of US, is that if it works for you, then great. If, in the other hand, you are the wary sort, then use a full blown cleaning machine at some vast cost.

I have made my own cleaning implement, giving me total control via a digital timer, it works perfectly, and has never let me down over the last 5 years. I must admit I have the Elma US, which does give 37 & 80 mhz, also Drying machine.  The quality is superb. 

All the component parts are in an Elma Basket and trays, attached to motor in Elma RM90 jars, then 15 mins @ 37mhz, 3secs agitation at 1600rpm, every 30 secs, remember the agitation is dampened by L&R cleaner. Then span off for 30secs at 1600rpm, then into 2 separate rinses at 80mhz................ then into dryer for 30 mins. Never had anything disappear or loose shape. 

I have just done 2 separate services on the thinnest movement 1.6mm, an AP 2003 & VC 1003, all as above. The hairspring is minute, not a problem............

If it works for you, great.....................

[rossjackson01]

Hello again. Enjoying learning. But still have many questions. Any help, advice is greatly received. 

Cleaning a watch.

Using an ultrasonic unit? £20. When a watch is stripped down. Is it ok to put the parts in it for cleaning, then put the watch back together after.  Can't afford the £200+ four bottle unit. 

Do I need to use and should I invest in an oiler and pen for use in the rebuild. Does the ultrasonic remove all the oil?

One move question. How can I tell what base unit is in a watch. I am getting and going to repair a 'Watch of Switzerland, Seafarer' calendar watch. If I need specific parts, which I do. Crown definitely, which is missing. I may need to replace the winding stem. ETA?

I will receive the watch in a few days a will submit photographs for your information.

Thank you.

Regards

Ross

[TimpanogosSlim]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:24 AM, oldhippy said:

This is the one.

 

 

I will be sure not to put any aluminum watch parts that are less than 30 microns thick in my ultrasonic bath. Thankfully, I think all of the parts i am likely to want to clean are much sturdier than light-duty aluminum foil. 

Respectfully, L&R Ultrasonics seems to stand behind the idea of washing watch parts in an ultrasonic bath. 

[GregG]

I've been looking for watch cleaning machines, but after browsing on eBay, I've accepted the fact that the ones that spin with multiple jars are all either:

1) Old and broken

2) Old and working, but bidding wars drive up the price

3) Brand new and exorbitantly expensive

I currently have a dual-frequency ultrasonic cleaner (28kHz/40kHz).  It performs okay.  It can get the dirt off of an old watch part, but I'm never left saying "wow, this is spotless."

Then I read some articles on

https://iultrasonic.com/blog/tips-on-selecting-an-ultrasonic-frequency/

and

https://zenith-ultrasonics.com/ultrasonic-frequency-selection/

And both agree that higher frequencies operate better for smaller more delicate materials.  What you lose in cleaning power can perhaps be made up for by evenness of cleaning action and the ability to get into small holes.  I found some L&R ultrasonic cleaner that operate at 55 kHz.  There are also ones that operate as high as 120kHz, though those seem to be over a thousand dollars; way out of my budget.  Does anyone have experience with higher-frequency cleaners and can give some advice?

[HectorLooi]

Instead of the actual operating frequency, look for a sweep frequency ultrasonic cleaner. By sweeping the frequency over a range, dead spots and hot spots are eliminated. This results in a more even clean.

[Paul80]

Another option is to not get yourself bogged down with all the technical talk.  Selection of the correct cleaning fluid and doing a little pre cleaning with some peg wood and brush to remove the bulk of the dirt will make a huge difference in the performance of your current U/S machine and as it has two frequency settings just do half the cycle at one setting and the other half at the other setting.

No need to spend more money, unless you want to that is, if you want to the Indian made cleaning machines (Spinny basket types) are not too overpriced unlike the old broken vintage ones on eBay etc

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, GregG said:

I currently have a dual-frequency ultrasonic cleaner (28kHz/40kHz).  It performs okay.  It can get the dirt off of an old watch part, but I'm never left saying "wow, this is spotless."

Another factor perhaps even more important is which cleaning fluid are you using? The solution is actually made from watch cleaning at least the ammonia-based ones have interesting good and bad properties. The good is the ammonia makes things bright and shiny which is good. The bad is if you go past bright and shiny it starts etching that's bad. So a lot of times when things don't really look clean it's because you went past the bright shiny face.

Another thing to give you a clue is going look at the specifications of commercial cleaning machines and see what they do?

9 hours ago, GregG said:

3) Brand new and exorbitantly expensive

I'm not sure you are thinking about this machine when you described the price of new machines. It employs some rather interesting things like using a vacuum so the fluid will literally get everywhere. Then it employs two separate ultrasonic frequencies either 40 or 80 khz . I have a link to a video below that shows how it works. Also a link where you can see the specifications you look at their other ultrasonic machines see what frequencies they run At

https://youtu.be/Wcc_Bk7DO4k

https://www.elma-ultrasonic.com/en/products/watch-cleaning/elmasolvex-va#tabs|p1123:downloads

 

[Tiny]

I'm in the market for a new sonic cleaning Machine and was just wondering why a cleaner is heated.

I have seen some videos on youtube and they use heated cleaners but why?

 

[grsnovi]

I suspect you'll get some better answers but you want to clean off dried oils and grease. Grease and oil become softer/more fluid when heated which would subsequently make the ultrasonic wave cleaning easier more thorough.

 

[Tiny]

Can some one also clear up what part are not cleaned in the sonic cleaner 

hair spring

pallet fork

thanks

[LittleWatchShop]

On 1/10/2022 at 11:41 AM, Legarm said:

37 & 80 mhz

I think you mean kHz.  But, hey, who's counting?

[LittleWatchShop]

On 4/1/2022 at 8:24 PM, GregG said:

2) Old and working, but bidding wars drive up the price

You must be patient and diligent.  I got an L&R last year for $230.  Fully functional with three jars.  On some days, ebay bidders go nuts...on other days not so much.

I use mine weekly and sometimes daily.

[Skyfiller]

Only started in pocket watches at the beginning of the year but having done literally days of research I now use ultrasonic for everything. Fill the bath with water and put L&R UF Watch Cleaner or L&R Ultrasonic Watch Rinse in glass jars. I've not had any problems and even put the foil dial washers in. 

Just because, off to see if the glass jars make a difference?

Two pieces of Al foil, one in the water bath and one in a glass jar for 300 seconds

Think that clearly shows that the glass jars do affect the ultrasonics

[LittleWatchShop]

Related topic...those of you who use amoniated L&R cleaner...what do you do with the spent fluids?  Currently I am kicking the can down the road--storing in containers.

Edited April 5, 2022 by LittleWatchShop

[HectorLooi]

2 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

Only started in pocket watches at the beginning of the year but having done literally days of research I now use ultrasonic for everything. Fill the bath with water and put L&R UF Watch Cleaner or L&R Ultrasonic Watch Rinse in glass jars. I've not had any problems and even put the foil dial washers in. 

Just because, off to see if the glass jars make a difference?

Two pieces of Al foil, one in the water bath and one in a glass jar for 300 seconds

Think that clearly shows that the glass jars do affect the ultrasonics

You shouldn't place the glass jar directly on the bottom of the tank. The jar should be placed in a basket or suspended in a frame. The bottom of the tank should not have anything resting on it or it may damage the tranducers and/or reduce the amount of U/S energy in the tank.