Ultrasonic Cleaners

[HectorLooi]

Water and carbon steel are not best pals. Looks like you have an older, carbon steel hairspring. And together with brass, a galvanic reaction took place.

A waterless cleaner would be a better bet.

[GregG]

17 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Water and carbon steel are not best pals. Looks like you have an older, carbon steel hairspring. And together with brass, a galvanic reaction took place.

A waterless cleaner would be a better bet.

As some have suggested on this forum, would it be perfectly acceptable to just pop all the parts into a jar of lighter fluid?  That would save me a lot of time/headaches in cleaning.

[HectorLooi]

25 minutes ago, GregG said:

As some have suggested on this forum, would it be perfectly acceptable to just pop all the parts into a jar of lighter fluid?  That would save me a lot of time/headaches in cleaning.

I have used lighter fluid, gasoline, turpentine in my ultrasonic cleaner before. They can remove the dried up oils but leave the surface looking a little dry and lifeless.

Now I use L&R #111 Cleaner and #3 Rinse. Although they are really expensive here in Singapore, I don't think I would go back to before.

Unfortunately the rust stains cannot be removed by lighter fluid now. Probably a supervised soak in phosphoric acid would work. @Nucejoe would probably recommend soaking it in Coke. ( the cola kind )

[ifibrin]

2 hours ago, GregG said:

I have been using water and powdered dish washing detergent mixed in.  I'm generally getting very good results for what is probably the cheapest possible option.  But this most recent movement I tried was strange.  All the parts were separated into baskets, and the balance+bridge was screwed into the main plate to secure it.

I think you can clean the movement plates and bridges using water and soap in the ultrasonic cleaner without risk as long as you don’t clean steel containing parts such as screws, the hairspring, hairspring stud etc.

In practice, that would preclude the entire balance cock, the train wheels, keyless works, screws, springs. For those steel containing parts it’s best to clean in benzine. If you get rust on pivots which are made of steel you are going to have to polish/burnish them.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, GregG said:

I am experimenting with cleaning fluids on some spare movements that I have lying around, and I ran into some anomalies that I'm hoping someone here could explain.

I have been using water and powdered dish washing detergent mixed in.  I'm generally getting very good results for what is probably the cheapest possible option.  But this most recent movement I tried was strange.  All the parts were separated into baskets, and the balance+bridge was screwed into the main plate to secure it.

Everything came out spotless except for the balance.  The cone on the balance staff just above the pivot got rusty/dirty, as did the pin securing the hairspring to the bridge, and most of the top of the bridge.  I rinsed in isopropyl alcohol, although, the rusting started while they were in the bath, which was only about 35C.  I noticed that there was some grit or grime that was coalescing around the screw head, which mostly washed away after I drained it.

Anyone know what's going on?

Hi Greg. To me it looks like the screws around the balance assembly have reacted first to the water based solution and the rust formation has just started to spread out. Another reason I would never use anything water based again. In the right hands and the right equipment  and being able to fully and quickly dry ie. In a dedicated movement cleaner the water based is probably ok. But me as a beginner, as soon as watch parts are removed from a water clean the oxidation process is on its merry way of making your life difficult. I've posted something that may be of use to you under the topic cleaning fluids. I would love to hear any thoughts that the experts have regarding isopropyl versus naptha. Alcohol based vs petroleum based.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

You fellas who are getting rust after using water mixed with (fill in blank), and deciding water based cleaners cause rust- please remember that there are professionals (like me) with many years of good, rust-free results with water based cleaners that were made for cleaning watches.

 

And for the some-dozenth time, no problem at all to dip your balance and fork in alcohol to soak off water used for rinsing. 15+ years of using water based cleaner and doing just that, never lost a roller jewel or pallet stone.

[jdm]

5 hours ago, GregG said:

As some have suggested on this forum, would it be perfectly acceptable to just pop all the parts into a jar of lighter fluid?

As mentioned already. Lighter fluid it's not an horological product, it's not recommended by any school or book, it's made to burn not to clean,  so it contains additives.

What you want instead is petroleum ether, available on Ebay and other places es, it has guaranteed purity and is cheaper per quantity.

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

You fellas who are getting rust after using water mixed with (fill in blank), and deciding water based cleaners cause rust- please remember that there are professionals (like me) with many years of good, rust-free results with water based cleaners that were made for cleaning watches.

 

And for the some-dozenth time, no problem at all to dip your balance and fork in alcohol to soak off water used for rinsing. 15+ years of using water based cleaner and doing just that, never lost a roller jewel or pallet stone.

How do you rinse off the water based cleaner? Do you use distilled water or is there a horological rinse for it?

[nickelsilver]

48 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

How do you rinse off the water based cleaner? Do you use distilled water or is there a horological rinse for it?

It depends. If using my machine with the distiller integral, I will go straight into the alcohol, then dump it and let it refill (about 6 minutes) for a clean rinse. I have another ultrasonic (pics below)* with 3 little tanks that gets used a lot for general quick cleaning of a part or two; the first bath is the water based cleaner, 2nd is the 1st alco rinse, which takes off the bulk, and the 3rd a clean alco rinse, dryer is to the right.

 

For clocks I use a water based cleaner that I mix up from a recipe from the Finnish watchmaking school. To conserve alcohol, with those parts I rinse in water, pat dry with a towel (what I can conveniently), then into alcohol, then on a larger Greiner dryer.

 

I know Elma recommends distilled water followed by Suprol Pro to displace the water prior to drying. As I have always used Greiner solution, I stick to their method of alcohol, or water then alcohol.

 

* This little ultrasonic is another example of the Greiner cleverness- the 1st and 3rd tanks have ultrasonic transducers in them. The 2nd one is just a simple bath. By switching them around, whichever one in the 1st position will turn on its ultrasonic transducer if the number is facing forward. Works by induction. Super cool!

Edited April 17, 2022 by nickelsilver

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

As mentioned already. Lighter fluid it's not an horological product, it's not recommended by any school or book, it's made to burn not to clean,  so it contains additives.

What you want instead is petroleum ether, available on Ebay and other places es, it has guaranteed purity and is cheaper per quantity.

Good old jdm still on about lighter fluid. It never done any harm to hairsprings or pallets or shellac when I used Ronsnol lighter fluid. I have left hairsprings in it for days and pallets. 

[jdm]

14 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

It never done any harm to hairsprings or pallets or shellac when I used Ronsnol lighter fluid. I have left hairsprings in it for days and pallets. 

I never said ot implied that lighter fluid does any damage - of course it doesn't. I just said that with less money you can buy half a liter of pure product example

 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142061406816?hash=item2113850a60:g:vjQAAOSwgc1axeUo

 

[HectorLooi]

 That's @jdm pet peeve.

But I agree that benzine is much cheaper than Ronsonol.

[oldhippy]

30 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You said. As mentioned already. Lighter fluid it's not an horological product, it's not recommended by any school or book, it's made to burn not to clean,  so it contains additives.

I was pointing out that none of what you said harmed any of the parts I used to clean with Ronsnol. That is all. 

 

[oldhippy]

30 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

 That's @jdm pet peeve.

But I agree that benzine is much cheaper than Ronsonol.

Benzine has been used for decades by watchmakers, its tried and trusted. 

[ifibrin]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

You fellas who are getting rust after using water mixed with (fill in blank), and deciding water based cleaners cause rust- please remember that there are professionals (like me) with many years of good, rust-free results with water based cleaners that were made for cleaning watches.

 

And for the some-dozenth time, no problem at all to dip your balance and fork in alcohol to soak off water used for rinsing. 15+ years of using water based cleaner and doing just that, never lost a roller jewel or pallet stone.

I agree water based cleaners can give excellent results, and have been used traditionally. However, in the hands of hobbyists without the correct equipment or technique can lead to rust! This is normally due to leaving in water rinse for too long, or leaving wet before drying for too long.

Interestingly, I never had rust developing in Elma red (max 5 min) but only after rinsing with water. I think if you’re not using the integrated machine you have to be really quick with your water rinse then wash in the alcohol solvent.

[ifibrin]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

How do you rinse off the water based cleaner? Do you use distilled water or is there a horological rinse for it?

You normally have a quick dunk in water, then rinse twice in alcohol (or suprol). But I have had someone tell me they take it straight out of Elma Red and rinse in benzine… I don’t quite agree since Elma red and benzine aren’t miscible so you can’t quite clean it well like that…

[HectorLooi]

Would that be ethanol or isopropyl alcohol? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

I never said ot implied that lighter fluid does any damage - of course it doesn't. I just said that with less money you can buy half a liter of pure product example

 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142061406816?hash=item2113850a60:g:vjQAAOSwgc1axeUo

 

Hi jmd. If its OK for me to mention my figuring on that ebay price, that works out at 4 x the price of the lighter fuel that I buy. Can you clarify that the listing is correct. Thank you.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, jdm said:

As mentioned already. Lighter fluid it's not an horological product, it's not recommended by any school or book, it's made to burn not to clean,  so it contains additives.

What you want instead is petroleum ether, available on Ebay and other places es, it has guaranteed purity and is cheaper per quantity.

Hi jmd . Can I ask at what level of experience is it not recommended  to by any school or book. Thanks

[nickelsilver]

6 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Would that be ethanol or isopropyl alcohol? 

If that's for me- isopropyl, which is pretty much the standard alcohol used in watchmaking. The machine I mentioned with the built in distiller was discontinued in the early 70s I believe, and in talking to the guys at Greiner one reason was people were using them to distill ethanol (the boiling temp is close enough), haha.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

You fellas who are getting rust after using water mixed with (fill in blank), and deciding water based cleaners cause rust- please remember that there are professionals (like me) with many years of good, rust-free results with water based cleaners that were made for cleaning watches.

 

And for the some-dozenth time, no problem at all to dip your balance and fork in alcohol to soak off water used for rinsing. 15+ years of using water based cleaner and doing just that, never lost a roller jewel or pallet stone.

My blank was fairy liquid

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, ifibrin said:

You normally have a quick dunk in water, then rinse twice in alcohol (or suprol). But I have had someone tell me they take it straight out of Elma Red and rinse in benzine… I don’t quite agree since Elma red and benzine aren’t miscible so you can’t quite clean it well like that…

What is Suprol please ifibrin 

[ifibrin]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What is Suprol please ifibrin 

It’s a waterless rinse for use after washing with Elma Red.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by ifibrin

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi jmd. If its OK for me to mention my figuring on that ebay price, that works out at 4 x the price of the lighter fuel that I buy. Can you clarify that the listing is correct. Thank you.

Hi again jdm this is the naptha I use in lighter fluid form is it different from the one in your listing ? I pay 89 pence per 100mm. Thanks

Edited April 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

It’s a waterless rinse for use after washing with Elma Red.

 

Thanks ifibrin. It doesn't really say on there what it actually is. It says what it isn't and what it does and its characteristics. Could that be because they don't want to give away the ingredients or that is simply just an alcohol that is easily available at a much cheaper price than they are offering.