Adjusting beat error on a movement without adjustable stud carrier

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Not at all- ethyl alcohol is the alcohol for dissolving shellac.

My apologies @nickelsilver, since we're talking about preserving (rinsing) and dissolving (re-shellac) shellac at the same time and I got it mixed up.

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I have noticed that some brands burn very poorly in my alcohol lamps, in spite of being sold as lamp fuel. Some burn very well. Probably more water in the poor one.

The mentioned Mineralised methylated spirits sold by Cousins, is sold as lamp fuel but also for removing shellac. It has a really poisonous purple colour and is marked as hazardous, which probably is a good thing  Eventually I'll review it for both purposes.

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

If shellac has softened from contact with alcohol, it will re-harden as the alcohol evaporates, this is the basis for shellac finishes for wood.

This information really puts everything in a new light! I simply assumed that once alcohol had softened the shellac it was ruined. So, if the shellac becomes a bit soft after rinsing in IPA we can simply let it dry and then, of course, make sure the stones sit securely and correctly in their slots, which we should be doing anyway. Brilliant! 

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The above mention of boiling out in a test tube is because there's a big difference between softening shellac and completely removing it.

Now that you mention it, that's definitely an experience that I share! Not the boiling thing, which I've never tried, but the "big difference".

Again, an absolutely brilliant post my Mr. @nickelsilver! Mark should be putting you on his payroll! 

[jdm]

27 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The old Ultrason II is still running and is particularly good when cleaning parts that will be plated or blued.

You mean something like that? 

Shall I awaken the beast? My French polish furniture is shaking already 

[nickelsilver]

7 minutes ago, jdm said:

You mean something like that? 

Shall I awaken the beast? My French polish furniture is shaking already 

If it hasn't run in some years I recommend a "soft start", ramping up voltage with a Variac. I'm sure you're familiar with reforming caps . These things (all the old Greiner stuff- new too) is built to an extraordinarily high standard,  but best to be safe. They also have selenium rectifiers which are a debate starter on electrinics forums, but the 3 I own all the Siemens rectifier blocks are nice and flat, no hint of toxic smoke coming out. Maybe Greiner bought higher spec? I've had some Revox amps that were super bulged out, same era.

[JohnR725]

18 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This information really puts everything in a new light! I simply assumed that once alcohol had softened the shellac it was ruined. So, if the shellac becomes a bit soft after rinsing in IPA we can simply let it dry and then, of course, make sure the stones sit securely and correctly in their slots, which we should be doing anyway. Brilliant! 

As shellac can dissolve and alcohol it does have another property which you've brought up up above. That is if you deliberately dissolve your shellac in alcohol it becomes a liquid glue. You can apply it to existing parts if you think you're having a problem. Or on new parts and once the alcohol has evaporated you get heated up and move things around with no problem. In other words another way to apply the shellac.

[ifibrin]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:54 PM, Nucejoe said:

OP doesn't say how he ended up needing to adjusting for beat error. If oscilator is disturbed/ worked on, it needs to be poised .

After cleaned the movement, put it back together and oiled it, the beat error was around 8ms. I think someone had worked on it previously as there were some initials written on the inside of the case back in pencil.

I did try to lower the beat error but got scared after repeated removal of the balance and hairspring assembly to adjust the collet.

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, ifibrin said:

After cleaned the movement, put it back together and oiled it, the beat error was around 8ms. I think someone had worked on it previously as there were some initials written on the inside of the case back in pencil.

I did try to lower the beat error but got scared after repeated removal of the balance and hairspring assembly to adjust the 

 I don't see how the beat error can be zero- ed without the tool Nickelsilver showed. I have been calling it adjusted when its close enough. 

Best wishes.

 

[VWatchie]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

In other words another way to apply the shellac.

Eventually I'll do some experimenting with this and see where it leads. Of course, I would assume that the traditional method using an alcohol lamp is the quickest and most convenient method. Anyway, what I'll will do first (for my own peace of mind) will be to make sure shellac hardens (that the IPA evaporates) after having been softened by IPA.

[nickelsilver]

22 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Eventually I'll do some experimenting with this and see where it leads. Of course, I would assume that the traditional method using an alcohol lamp is the quickest and most convenient method. Anyway, what I'll will do first (for my own peace of mind) will be to make sure shellac hardens (that the IPA evaporates) after having been softened by IPA.

If you find you start doing escapement work an electric heater is definitely more convenient than an alcohol lamp. There is of course the very expensive Bergeon heating plate with electronic temp control, but if you scour Ebay you can find small lab heating plates surplus for less.

On 9/26/2021 at 7:02 AM, Nucejoe said:

 I don't see how the beat error can be zero- ed without the tool Nickelsilver showed. I have been calling it adjusted when its close enough. 

Best wishes.

 

You can definitely get it to zero just by manipulating the collet. I do some vintage after sales service for a big brand, pieces often from the 1920s up to 60s; they expect the beat error to be under 1ms in all positions. It's not easy or fun to do on a tiny delicate movement, but definitely doable.

[VWatchie]

On 9/24/2021 at 12:17 PM, nickelsilver said:

For every day work, from the smallest ladies movements to marine chonometer, I set the balance with the cock on a bench block so the roller table is in a hole, balance on the block. Lift up the cock and move it over- not flipping it, just moving laterally, until I can see the slot in the hairspring collet, get in there and adjust (for tiny watches this is usually with an oiler, larger, a small screwdriver). Go back in the watch and check on the machine.

 

On 9/24/2021 at 2:08 PM, nickelsilver said:

I do the adjustment under the microscope, which is pretty essential as the adjustment is usually very very small. I hold a balance arm of the rim with tweezers while moving the collet.

I tried this today on a vintage scrap movement and it worked like a charm. Even though it was a small movement with a small HS with a very short distance between the individual coils, the secure setup made my able to relax and move the collet precisely. So, a big heartfelt thank you @nickelsilver!

[VWatchie]

On 9/26/2021 at 10:35 AM, VWatchie said:

Anyway, what I'll will do first (for my own peace of mind) will be to make sure shellac hardens (that the IPA evaporates) after having been softened by IPA.

I tried this today but I'm afraid the result was disheartening. I tried with two types of shellac bought from Cousins. This and this. The clear shellac is very brittle. The dark brown shellac is more tough and doughy in its texture and a bit reminiscent of gingerbread dough in color. Anyway, after having rinsed a piece of each kind in IPA (about 23 degrees Celcius) for about a minute and a half, they were still "wet" and soft after several hours. Then also, I remembered a re-shellacked fork I had rinsed in IPA several month ago but never got around to use, and when I poked the shellac (the clear type) today if felt as soft and doughy as did the day I rinsed it and it disintegrated.

I doubt it would be any different with shellac flakes? So, for the time being I'll keep cleaning pallets manually with Horosolv degreaser.

[JohnR725]

54 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Cousins. This and this. The clear shellac is very brittle. The dark brown shellac

the problem appears to be the word shellac probably does have an exact meaning but in watch repair it appears to be a lot of stuff. A lot of somehow different stuff over time. Even if it is supposed all be identical.

The flake shellac that I have complements of the lecture I was once asked. The person at the buy I can't remember how many pounds of the stuff so they gave it away to everybody it works really nice.

Then I can't read Roy mentioned it way back before but I still remember the instructor had at school said there was a difference between the various shellac with the old being better. I've noticed that at work as various bottles will end up on my bench acquired from wherever it's acquired from. With some of it not really melting very well just from memory I just didn't like it so I tend to just use the flakes as it does melts really nice and it's nice and shiny and hard.

[ifibrin]

5 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I tried this today but I'm afraid the result was disheartening. I tried with two types of shellac bought from Cousins. This and this. The clear shellac is very brittle. The dark brown shellac is more tough and doughy in its texture and a bit reminiscent of gingerbread dough in color. Anyway, after having rinsed a piece of each kind in IPA (about 23 degrees Celcius) for about a minute and a half, they were still "wet" and soft after several hours. Then also, I remembered a re-shellacked fork I had rinsed in IPA several month ago but never got around to use, and when I poked the shellac (the clear type) today if felt as soft and doughy as did the day I rinsed it and it disintegrated.

I doubt it would be any different with shellac flakes? So, for the time being I'll keep cleaning pallets manually with Horosolv degreaser.

Do you think the shellac would be ok after a quick (20seconds) swirl in 70%IPA:30%Water, then quick air-drying with rubber bellows? I’ve been doing that recently for pallet forks, but can’t tell for sure if the shellac is still good, as I don’t dare to poke the pallet jewels too hard.

I understand that you do this test by melting a small sample of the shellac onto some surface, then test this small lump on the surface by rinsing in IPA? 

[ifibrin]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

the problem appears to be the word shellac probably does have an exact meaning but in watch repair it appears to be a lot of stuff. A lot of somehow different stuff over time. Even if it is supposed all be identical.

I think shellac from different sources can be quite different since it is obtained from insects, such that the conditions under which the insects were living, as well as the exact family of insects obtained from, will have an effect on the properties of the shellac. After all, different breeds of cows, how the cows lived, and even if the cows are massaged, all have an effect on the taste of the beef!

[HectorLooi]

Shellac has many purposes, from furniture polish, to chocolate glaze, to pallet stone mounting, to jeweller's dop stick mounting, to dental shellac.

Each purpose would require different physical properties and would probably have different additives to produce the desired properties.

If you look at Cousin's catalog, they have several types of shellac. They have some supposedly for "fixing jewels". But I think this is for jewellery work, like for fixing a jewel to a dop stick for faceting and polishing the stone. So this shellac would have a higher softening temperature to prevent the heat from polishing to melt the shellac. I have some of this type and it hardly melts on a pallet warmer over a an alcohol lamp.

In Cousin's catalog, there is also another type of shellac in the form of a semi clear stick. This is the correct type for fixing pallet stones.

[ifibrin]

49 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Shellac has many purposes, from furniture polish, to chocolate glaze, to pallet stone mounting, to jeweller's dop stick mounting, to dental shellac.

Each purpose would require different physical properties and would probably have different additives to produce the desired properties.

If you look at Cousin's catalog, they have several types of shellac. They have some supposedly for "fixing jewels". But I think this is for jewellery work, like for fixing a jewel to a dop stick for faceting and polishing the stone. So this shellac would have a higher softening temperature to prevent the heat from polishing to melt the shellac. I have some of this type and it hardly melts on a pallet warmer over a an alcohol lamp.

In Cousin's catalog, there is also another type of shellac in the form of a semi clear stick. This is the correct type for fixing pallet stones.

Where did you get your shellac from?

[HectorLooi]

5 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Where did you get your shellac from?

My mentor gave me a small bag of it. It's dark brown, in the form of flakes.

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I tend to just use the flakes as it does melts really nice and it's nice and shiny and hard.

I'll try the flakes the next time I place an order with Cousins. The way I perceive it is that the clear shellac stick is way too brittle and the dark brown shellac stick way too doughy. I want it clear and hard.

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, ifibrin said:

I understand that you do this test by melting a small sample of the shellac onto some surface, then test this small lump on the surface by rinsing in IPA? 

What I do is try to simulate what would happen in the final rinse of my 1952 (still going very strong) Elma cleaning machine. That is, I through a lump of shellac into a petri dish filled with IPA. I then let it soak in there for about 90 seconds, then pick it up and place it on a piece of watch tissue paper (super absorbent).

[VWatchie]

7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

In Cousin's catalog, there is also another type of shellac in the form of a semi clear stick. This is the correct type for fixing pallet stones.

It's the clear shellac from Cousins that I've been using. It is marketed as:

"Traditional semi-clear fixing material for pallet stones and other related small bonding applications."

It is very brittle and when soaked in IPA (even for just a few seconds) turns into a jelly like substance that never seems to dry. So, I'll keep cleaning my pallets manually with a paint brush and Horosolv degreaser (which is a really efficient degreaser). 

[ifibrin]

17 hours ago, VWatchie said:

It's the clear shellac from Cousins that I've been using. It is marketed as:

"Traditional semi-clear fixing material for pallet stones and other related small bonding applications."

It is very brittle and when soaked in IPA (even for just a few seconds) turns into a jelly like substance that never seems to dry. So, I'll keep cleaning my pallets manually with a paint brush and Horosolv degreaser (which is a really efficient degreaser). 

Since you have nothing left to lose with the softened shellac on the pallet fork, why don’t you heat the pallet fork on the pallet warmer to the softening temperature and see what happens? It may cause the IPA to evaporate?

[HectorLooi]

IPA isn't the only thing that affects shellac. I once soaked a pallet fork in a ultrasonic solution for clinical use and my pallet stones fell out.

I learnt later that shellac dissolves in strong alkalis, meaning sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, etc

I've yet to succeed in replacing the stones. It's on my bucket list.