Adjusting beat error on a movement without adjustable stud carrier

[ifibrin]

Is the process of adjusting beat error on a movement without an adjustable stud carrier just trial and error by rotating the hairspring collets by small amounts? Even 5 degrees rotation drastically affects the beat error, and I am extremely wary of damaging the hairspring by repeatedly taking in and out of the regulator pins and removing the stud from the fixed stud carrier.

[KarlvonKoln]

With a fixed stud carrier (and no pics of the movement to refer to) I'm pretty sure you've hit upon the only way.

I often work on antiques, and with one little size 0s Swiss cylinder watch - a gift for my wife - to correct the beat error I had to un-pin the pinned hairspring and let it out just a tiny bit, then adjust the collet by teeny tiny increments, repeating this procedure until it was finally in beat and able to be regulated.

And it's good to be extremely worried about damaging the hairspring.  We all should be. Always. Fragile it is.  Take your time on it. Know how much force you are applying, and in what direction. Be mindful and don't go any faster than you are comfortable with.  Practice will make you better with time.  Good luck. 

May we see some pictures of the movement please?  We always enjoy them.

Edited September 23, 2021 by KarlvonKoln

[HectorLooi]

I think we have become overly OCD about beat error. Before the invention of timegraphers, what did watchmakers do?

They just line up the balance jewel with the pallet fork by sight and that was it. I think the error could be out by 1.0ms.

[ifibrin]

34 minutes ago, KarlvonKoln said:

With a fixed stud carrier (and no pics of the movement to refer to) I'm pretty sure you've hit upon the only way.

I often work on antiques, and with one little size 0s Swiss cylinder watch - a gift for my wife - to correct the beat error I had to un-pin the pinned hairspring and let it out just a tiny bit, then adjust the collet by teeny tiny increments, repeating this procedure until it was finally in beat and able to be regulated.

And it's good to be extremely worried about damaging the hairspring.  We all should be. Always. Fragile it is.  Take your time on it. Know how much force you are applying, and in what direction. Be mindful and don't go any faster than you are comfortable with.  Practice will make you better with time.  Good luck. 

May we see some pictures of the movement please?  We always enjoy them.

I was working on an AS1012 movement that looks something like this. Except that the one I was working on had no incabloc for the balance, so to oil the balance cock jewels you have to remove the balance wheel to access the jewels underside.

[Nucejoe]

 You can either turn the roller table or hairspring or as said unpin the hairspring and run it through the stud hole.

 Putting the cock and balance back on the mainplate without anything else gives you a good view of impulse jewel which is to be in midpoint between the banking pins.

 Turning the hairspring is the riskiest.  I turn the roller table instead, I put it on the staff a bit loose so turning be easy, once I call it in beat , I then press the roller table all the way home.

Ink marking the balance for a referance point on one edge of the cock is useful.

[ifibrin]

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

 You can either turn the roller table or hairspring or as said unpin the hairspring and run it through the stud hole.

 Putting the cock and balance back on the mainplate without anything else gives you a good view of impulse jewel which is to be in midpoint between the banking pins.

 Turning the hairspring is the riskiest.  I turn the roller table instead, I put it on the staff a bit loose so turning be easy, once I call it in beat , I then press the roller table all the way home.

Ink marking the balance for a referance point on one edge of the cock is useful.

How do you loosen the roller table safely and turn it by small amounts accurately? I’m sure there is some formula to convert the beat error into degrees rotation needed, bearing in mind the beat rate of the watch (I.e. 18000)?

everytime I take the complete balance off the balance cock to rotate the hairspring collet, I break out into cold sweat worried if I will distort the hairspring and introduce yet more positional variation...

[ifibrin]

3 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

I think we have become overly OCD about beat error. Before the invention of timegraphers, what did watchmakers do?

They just line up the balance jewel with the pallet fork by sight and that was it. I think the error could be out by 1.0ms.

I tried lining up the roller jewel visually but I ended up with 9ms beat error! I’m actually quite worried about how many more tries the hairspring can take my handling, considering this movement last ran in 1950s...

[jdm]

 

2 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

How do you loosen the roller table safely and turn it by small amounts accurately?

I recommend to let alone the roller table. The normal way to do this is turning the hairspring collet as mentioned above. It should have a cut where you can insert a small screwdriver, which tends to open it a little, and make it a controllable operation.

Note, image above is taken from a rare narration of what is actually taught in watchmaking school:

https://watchmakingjourney.com/2014/08/16/last-week-final-project-colleting-and-studding-hairsprings/

[ifibrin]

27 minutes ago, jdm said:

 

I recommend to let alone the roller table. The normal way to do this is turning the hairspring collet as mentioned above. It should have a cut where you can insert a small screwdriver, which tends to open it a little, and make it a controllable operation.

Note, image above is taken from a rare narration of what is actually taught in watchmaking school:

https://watchmakingjourney.com/2014/08/16/last-week-final-project-colleting-and-studding-hairsprings/

Do all watchmakers eventually get used to, and proficient at handling hairspring issues? I know practice is key, but hairspring work is really quite nerve-wrecking, and if something goes wrong the result might be substantially worse than what you were trying to fix in the first place.

When do you call it a day, and say good enough? I’m embarrassed to say, in the AS 1012 movement I was working on, I left it at 9ms beat error, almost 10 min positional error, and 180 to 220 deg amplitude over all 6 positions. The watch last ran in the 1950s, so I decided to call it a day when I got it to run. I wasn’t sure how much more the hairspring could take! Learning hairspring work on a ladies movement the size of a thumbnail is probably not the best idea!

Now, this is a personal/family sentimental watch that I found lying around, and the cost to service it professionally would be a lot more than what it was purchased new. However, if it was a customers watch it would not be acceptable to send it out in such a state.

Edited September 23, 2021 by ifibrin

[jdm]

3 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Do all watchmakers eventually get used to, and proficient at handling hairspring issues?

I believe so. They will tell you, "it's matter of practice, you can't expect to master it quickly", which is true of course, but the fact is, not everybody gets to the same level, some people is naturally more talented. I'm myself on the mid of the scale at best. Once again the key concept is: practice on something that has zero value, or for which you have replacements at no cost. For me, ruining some of the balances below at Euro 15 a piece was a sobering experience.

 

3 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

The watch last ran in the 1950s, so I decided to call it a day when I got it to run.

Which was a good call.

 

3 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Learning hairspring work on a ladies movement the size of a thumbnail is probably not the best idea!

Which is what we tell all the time, but some beginners really think they know better. Recently one (not you) attacked a ladies hairloom because "he had reasons to do that". We never heard again how that ended.

 

 

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I turn the roller table instead, I put it on the staff a bit loose so turning be easy, once I call it in beat , I then press the roller table all the way home.

Never heard that one before. You're thinking out of the box. I always get nervous fiddling with or around the HS. I suppose you will have to remove the HS before you press the roller home though?

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Ink marking the balance for a referance point on one edge of the cock is useful.

I was always against this for aesthetic reasons, but since I discovered that permanent ink can be easily removed by IPA, especially on hard flat surfaces, I don't mind it one bit.

[ifibrin]

2 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Never heard that one before. You're thinking out of the box. I always get nervous fiddling with or around the HS. I suppose you will have to remove the HS before you press the roller home though?

I was always against this for aesthetic reasons, but since I discovered that permanent ink can be easily removed by IPA, especially on hard flat surfaces, I don't mind it one bit.

Permanent ink can be dissolved by IPA, but IPA also dissolved shellac, so be very careful!

[Marc]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

I turn the roller table

Does this not risk upsetting the poise of the balance wheel, thus introducing positional errors?

[ifibrin]

4 minutes ago, jdm said:

I believe so. They will tell you, "it's matter of practice, you can't expect to master it quickly", which is true of course, but the fact is, not everybody gets to the same level, some people is naturally more talented. I'm myself on the mid of the scale at best. Once again the key concept is: practice on something that has zero value, or for which you have replacements at no cost. For me, ruining some of the balances below at Euro 15 a piece was a sobering experience.

 

Which was a good call.

 

Which is what we tell all the time, but some beginners really think they know better. Recently one (not you) attacked a ladies hairloom because "he had reasons to do that". We never heard again how that ended.

 

 

I don’t practice watchmaking on any watches I can’t afford to scrap. Meaning to say, I don’t take apart any watch that I actually like! People keep asking “oh, you can service your own watches now, can you do mine?”and I have to gently tell them to seek the services for a professional!

So far all the watches I have serviced are from family who have them lying around they have no serious attachment to. Ladies movements are actually quite satisfying to service, but amplitude and positional variation seems more difficult to achieve.

[jdm]

 

21 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Permanent ink can be dissolved by IPA, but IPA also dissolved shellac, so be very careful!

t's more about "how" things are done rather than going by canned statements. For example, if you mark the balance rim and then clean it with a small brush, the solvent doesn't even get close to where shellac is.  Beside, alcohol softening shellac is not instantaneous.

 

14 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Ladies movements are actually quite satisfying to service, but amplitude and positional variation seems more difficult to achieve.

Mainly because of the small balance. When a ladies movement is a good timekeeper, that is a manufacturing or adjustment achievement bigger than with a men one. If you go in person to a professional with a ladies watch for service or repair, watch their face and be prepared to hear interesting comments.

[VWatchie]

3 minutes ago, ifibrin said:

Permanent ink can be dissolved by IPA, but IPA also dissolved shellac, so be very careful!

Thanks for the advice! I made a few experiments with shellac and various liquid chemicals which you can read more about here.

[ifibrin]

6 minutes ago, jdm said:

Because of the small balance. If a ladies movement is/was a good timekeeping, that is a manufacturing or adjustment achievement bigger than with a men one. If you go in person to a professional with a ladies watch for service or repair, watch their face and be prepared to hear interesting comments.

I read somewhere that in the past, ladies movements servicing were usually charged less, which I found very odd since ladies movements are a lot more difficult to service. Getting the escape wheel to line up to the train bridge is quite quick in a normal movement, but can take quite a lot of time in a ladies movement. if the pivot is short and doesn’t extend far out of the hole in the jewel it makes it even more difficult to see if the wheel is in place in the train bridge.

[HectorLooi]

This what I used to adjust the collets on clocks and pocket watches. It's probably too big for a ladies watch. I don't remember where I  learnt this from 

I slip the tool between the hairspring and balance cock and insert the sharp tooth of the tool into the split of the collet. Then I can turn the collet in whatever direction I choose.

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, Marc said:

Does this not risk upsetting the poise of the balance wheel, thus introducing positional errors?

 Yes it does. 

 

[Klassiker]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

This what I used to adjust the collets on clocks and pocket watches.

Did you make this yourself, and why that profile?

[Nucejoe]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Never heard that one before. You're thinking out of the box. I always get nervous fiddling with or around the HS. I suppose you will have to remove the HS before you press the roller home though?

You have the roller table on one side and the collet on the other, place the roller table on staking punch( special punch)  use another punch to push on collet.

 

 

[HectorLooi]

54 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

Did you make this yourself, and why that profile?

Yes, it's made from a piece of stainless steel wire. I copied it from a photo I saw of a vintage tool for adjusting beat error.

[Nucejoe]

8 hours ago, Marc said:

Does this not risk upsetting the poise of the balance wheel, thus introducing positional errors?

I meant you are right. it upsets the poise. 

 

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, Marc said:

Does this not risk upsetting the poise of the balance wheel, thus introducing positional errors?

 

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes it does. 

Have you verified this on a poising tool? Changing the position of the roller will will shift the poise to some extent I believe, but I was thinking that the impulse pin might compensate for the weight loss of the crescent on the safety roller. I.e., that the roller should approx. have the same weight around its circumference. I may be totally off here, but that's why I'd like to know if it has been verified as notable on a posing tool. If not, I can test it and report back.

[Marc]

@VWatchie the mass of the impulse jewel may be  offset by the cut out, but if it is it's likely more by accident than by design.

The balance wheel is poised (either static or dynamic poising) with the roller table in-situ. Unless the roller table it's self has been poised in isolation, the orientation of the roller table will be accounted for when the balance wheel/roller table assembly is poised as a unit. If you then change the orientation of the roller table relative to the balance wheel, you will then upset the poise of the assembly.