Who will be my first victim?

[yankeedog]

Vostok. 

[rodabod]

For “degreasers” you can either use a solvent or a soap. On a budget, you can use zippo lighter fuel as a solvent. This works well when pegging out jewels as it softens dried oil. For soaps, you really want something fairly aggressive. There are probably household cleaners such as some kitchen cleaners which would do this well. You can make your own soap using washing up liquid and a little ammonia. 
 

Again, experiment and use your own judgement. 

[spectre6000]

I'm hoping to finish rounding up my tools today. On my list is a canon pinion puller. I bookmarked some hand levers that I feel good about, but I don't have any direct experience on the dial side of a movement. Are hand pullers, or even tweezers, capable of confidently removing a canon pinion without causing damage? If so, great. If not, I'm not seeing a ton of options out there on the under-$50 side of the market. Esslinger has a hands/canon pinion pulling tool, but the photos look like it's a really cheap and poorly finished tool... Alternatively, if there's a tool that does both hands AND canon pinions confidently, the budget may increase as I would be able to drop the hand levers.

Also, I'm operating under the assumption that mainspring winders are optional in a binary sense (way better with them, but technically there are ways and means without). Please correct me if that is an incorrect assessment.

Edited April 19, 2020 by spectre6000

[aac58]

To pull the canon pinion I use a hands puller and it works great.

 

I only use it for the canon pinion, for the hands I use a pair of levers.

[spectre6000]

5 minutes ago, aac58 said:

To pull the canon pinion I use a hands puller and it works great.

 

I only use it for the canon pinion, for the hands I use a pair of levers.

That is either the Bergeon #1 Presto Hand Remover or a facsimile. Assuming that's the exact model (with the central plunger), and it works well for removing canon pinions and at least passably well for removing hands. That one tool is a little over $50, but since it does both jobs, and the combination of a dedicated pinion puller and some hand levers is more than the cost of the one tool, that seems like the way to go.

[rodabod]

You can use tweezers for canon pinion pulling. That’s what I use 95% of the time. I would just do that for the time being. 
 

Hand removal is a personal preference - some prefer hand levers and some prefer Presto lifters. I have both,  and usually use the Presto lifter as for me it gives a consistent, straight lift. I really recommend not getting a cheap copy of a Presto tool. I wrecked a pair of hands with one in my early days and still regret it. The genuine tool has hardened tips which have a more secure action. 

[spectre6000]

Last two things on my list: mainspring winder, and timegrapher. I believe I've seen inexpensive (~99) timegraphers that'd probably make for a reasonably good start (at least better than checking against NIST once a day or something), but I think that's going to require getting through a few first. The mainspring winder seems like it could be done without either by a careful touch or buying new mainsprings (which I understand come pre-coiled). 

 

Here's the list as it stands for review:

Optics - Bausch & Lomb classic metal clip on eye loupe 4x/7x

Screwdrivers - Bergeon 5970

Movement holder - Bergeon 4040

Tweezers - Dumont #2

Demagnetizer - Amazon cheapie

Rodico - regular goop

Oiler - inexpensive model from Esslinger

Oils/Greases - 9010, D5, 941, 9501

Cleaning solution - L&R Extra fine cleaning solution

Rinse solution - L&R #3

Dust cover/parts tray - inexpensive model from Esslinger

Oil pots - inexpensive plastic 3 in 1 from Esslinger

Hand/pinion lifter - Bergeon Presto #1

 

I've already pulled the trigger on the optics since I need something along those lines for an unrelated project; two birds. I'm ready to pull the trigger on the rest barring any final input from those who see any glaring mistakes or omissions and feel generous enough to let me know.

Edited April 20, 2020 by spectre6000

[aac58]

The Weishi 1000 is a good timegrapher at a good price. I've got the 1900 at about 125€, the only difference I'm aware of is the color screen, but it's very useful as the lines of the graph are different color, blue and yellow, so you can see when you go too far when correcting the beat as the lines cross each other. I don't have a photo where the lines are clearly visible.

IF you're going to service mainsprings in automatic watches I think you'll also need a braking grease like Moebius 8217.

I also use a very cheap digital microscope (about 30-35€) It's been a great improvement on my projects because I can inspect the jewels after cleaning and can peg them when needed (very often), also very handy to oil the pallet stones. I'm getting an amplitude 20% better than before.

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by aac58

[JohnR725]

59 minutes ago, aac58 said:

The Weishi 1000 is a good timegrapher at a good price. I've got the 1900 at about

Both machines were made by the same company. If you can afford the 1900 it's nicer in that the screen is physically bigger and the pixels are smaller so it looks nicer.  Then there are a couple of other added features like a +-99s range Then it has another graphical mode where it takes twice as long for the display to go across the screen.

5 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Oils/Greases - 9010, D5, 941, 9501

Lubrication always has lots of discussion lots of opinions. The D5 has been replaced by HP 1300. Then 941 been replaced by 9415. At one time 941 was considered for slower watches Then 9415 For faster watches. But not sure if it's because watchmakers are cheap the tech sheets then started having either or then now everything is 9415.

5 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

The mainspring winder seems like it could be done without either by a careful touch or buying new mainsprings (which I understand come pre-coiled). 

Until the Chinese clone the Swiss set a mainspring winders your options are hand winding if you're careful even though that's generally frowned upon by some people because there's the likelihood of distorting the mainspring. Then if it's brand-new it usually is in a ring and it usually will insert in most of the time. Some of the mainsprings like pocket watches that have a T end Or some other type of unusual  end getting that to happen ending up where it's supposed to be as problematic a mainspring winder would be really nice or your stuck doing it by hand.

5 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Oiler - inexpensive model from Esslinger

Then I assume you mean Oilers?  I find if you're using dip oiler's nice to have two of them. The fine one for all of the pivots but something Larger for the grease.

[rodabod]

I agree with everything John says, and will add that it’s very handy to know how to safely install mainsprings by hand, especially when you have no option with particular types like some T-ends, like John mentions. If you are distorting springs when installing them then you are doing it wrong. 

[spectre6000]

9 hours ago, aac58 said:

IF you're going to service mainsprings in automatic watches I think you'll also need a braking grease like Moebius 8217.

I will, but the first "victim" I think will be the Waltham. A solid case was made, and I guess I silently added my own that it requires less initial investment. It's large, simple, sub-second dial, it should come apart easily, manual wind, decent quality, robust (I think), and I can leave some tools/materials for a later date.

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Lubrication always has lots of discussion lots of opinions. The D5 has been replaced by HP 1300. Then 941 been replaced by 9415. At one time 941 was considered for slower watches Then 9415 For faster watches. But not sure if it's because watchmakers are cheap the tech sheets then started having either or then now everything is 9415.

Good note. Updating.

Quote

Then I assume you mean Oilers?  I find if you're using dip oiler's nice to have two of them. The fine one for all of the pivots but something Larger for the grease.

https://www.esslinger.com/individual-horotec-swiss-metal-dip-oilers/

For $4, it can be plural. I had considered getting a fine and a large to begin with, and using the large to transfer oil from the jars to the pots anyway (otherwise, I'm not sure how to keep waste to a minimum). 

3 hours ago, rodabod said:

I agree with everything John says, and will add that it’s very handy to know how to safely install mainsprings by hand, especially when you have no option with particular types like some T-ends, like John mentions. If you are distorting springs when installing them then you are doing it wrong. 

Well... I'm a thoroughly mechanically sympathetic kinda guy. I've built all manner of engines, carburetors, distributors, rebuilt old tools, I've done guitar repair for some people who would know if it were done wrong... If it's generally considered "doable" I imagine I'll be able to do it. Worst case scenario, I have to buy a new mainspring. Starting with the watch I am, I may have to buy one anyway...

I noticed that Bergeon has replaced the 5970 screwdriver set with a 30081-09 set. The cost difference is effectively negligible. Both are certainly still available, but I wonder if it isn't worth the extra $9 or whatever for all stainless steel over chromed brass and the larger (plastic?) finger tips? 

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, rodabod said:

hand, especially when you have no option with particular types like some T-ends

Actually for T end mainsprings I find the main spring Winder is the best method if you understand how to do it. So you wind your odd end mainspring into the Winder but you leave a little bit sticking out. Then you insert the end and the Winder into the barrel rotate until the T is over the opening. Then I find a really big screwdriver works push the T end  in to the hole and hold it there when you push the spring out. Because if you try to Porsche T end type Springs into the barrel it are from a Winder or a ring is never going to just magically pop into the hole and stay there. Even if you line it up and push it in is not going to stay it has to be locked into the hole and help there before the spring can be pushed out.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

https://www.esslinger.com/individual-horotec-swiss-metal-dip-oilers/

For $4, it can be plural. I had considered getting a fine and a large to begin with, and using the large to transfer oil from the jars to the pots anyway (otherwise, I'm not sure how to keep waste to a minimum).

Dip oiler's are interesting in that they come in a variety of colors which do not always correspond the size. The very tip can have different shapes for instance yours claims to have a shape of "Bulb shaped" Which for my tiny oiler I never liked. The ones that I found that I liked have flat tips. So once I found something that I liked I bought enough for them not to worry. So they are marked favorite Swiss made. Then somewhere out there I've seen where someone described reshaping the end because they thought that end would somehow be better than anything may. So someone of a personal choice.

7 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

all stainless steel over chromed brass and the larger (plastic?) finger tips? 

I doubt you're going to notice any difference at all in the body it's the head where you may find the difference. You usually going to have your finger on the top the bigger head is easier to use. Then some of the companies will actually make heads with ball bearings which probably cost more. I've basically just gotten used to mine the older style and don't notice that they don't rotate super well.

[spectre6000]

Are oilers one of those things you have to try a variety and find what you like then? My thought on picking that one was simply that it was a quality brand at an affordable price. I imagine the back of the tip opposite the cup is flat, and would thus work in the same manner; is that an incorrect assumption?

[rodabod]

You can make your own oilers. But I just use Bergeon or AF ones. The Indian ones I bought were crap and now only use for re-luming. 

[JohnR725]

39 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Are oilers one of those things you have to try a variety and find what you like then?

Yes unfortunately you have to find what you like if you can find it.

Then is looking at choices the first one sort of is probably like what I have. But basically mine isn't the bald and they just flattened the end basically. Then just a tiny bit more money as usual is the second link nicely flattened nicely shaped it's supposed to pick up the exact tiny quantity of oil that you need but just at a nifty price.

 

https://www.esslinger.com/swiss-micro-spatula-oiler-applicators-individual-oilers/

https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-7013-individual-swiss-metal-dip-oilers-ergonomic-oil-grease-precision-applicator/

[spectre6000]

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/10550960

Details on the Waltham. 

[spectre6000]

All tools ordered. I dug out my macro lens last night, and started messing with it. Now I have to wait for things to ship, and it sounds like a number of the things on my list are likely to be delayed... This will be a long wait. I've been wanting to do this since 2007 or 2008... Very excited!

[spectre6000]

Long wait indeed. Some things have shipped, but I found out many of the things I ordered are unavailable until Switzerland opens back up. If I interpret things correctly, that looks to be Monday. So, I might get lucky and have things in hand around mid-May... Amazon has spoiled me...

[jdm]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:05 AM, spectre6000 said:

 Now I have to wait for things to ship, and it sounds like a number of the things on my list are likely to be delayed... This will be a long wait. 

I don't know what are you waiting for, but to start learning and developing dexterity all one needs is a a set of small drivers and tweezers. One would want alum oxide bar to dress the drivers, but a strip of sand paper does the same. Mov't holder can in many cases be replaced by a plastic bottle cap. The working mat by a piece of flooring linoleoum. Etc, etc. 
Remember that who does the work is the person and his will, not the tool.
 

[watchweasol]

Right on jdm  In times like these improvisation is the key, When all the bits and pieces arrive then use it untill then make do and mend and start the learning process, If you can master using improvised tools you will be all the better with the correct ones.

[spectre6000]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

a set of small drivers and tweezers.

I have neither. All of my tools are on the Type 1 VW/Chevy small block/(any of the dozens of other cars and machines I've owned/worked on) scale or dedicated to electronics.

It's also said, "it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools." This is to say both that a good craftsman can work with inferior tools, but also that a good craftsman doesn't mess with them. At the end of the day, this is intended to be a hobby, and one of the things I find most enjoyable is working with quality tools (and conversely, one of the things that frustrates me most is when inferior tools break or or the wrong tool causes problems by being the wrong tool). 

Besides, I have a 3 1/2 month old to keep me occupied. No rush beyond that created by enthusiasm.

Edited April 23, 2020 by spectre6000

[Bauertime]

I started with small vintage women's watches.Then when you can work on them, a big man's watch is a very easy compared to a women's. 

[Deggsie]

Remember that who does the work is the person and his will, not the tool.
 

Yes JDMs advice is good. Just get on and learn dexterity. Most importantly don’t give in. Keep reading, ask questions here and it will come slowly but surely. Don’t be disappointed to break a few movements. Just when you think you have mastered a technique, you have a bad day and it all goes wrong. Know when to walk away and come back later to win. I have discovered one simple thing: the more I’ve learned the more i realise I know nothing about this wonderful hobby. Good luck and enjoy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnR725]

On 4/20/2020 at 7:46 AM, spectre6000 said:

I will, but the first "victim" I think will be the Waltham

There are several thoughts on your first victim? One would be to start on something like a Rolex or some prized family heirloom. Or start with a broken watch with the intent on fixing it or my silly method the least preferred by a lot of people?

So my usual recommendation is find a broken preferably pocket watch. Practice taking it apart and putting it back together get your hand eye coordination down for working on something small. Then Chinese clone of Swiss pocket watch brand new and a timing machine.  Then there are procedures for using the timing machine short version. Wind the watch up let it run about 15 the 30 minutes and then put it on the timing machine. Personally my preferred for diagnostics is six positions. But if you're in a big rush 2 positions minimum after all everyone's in a rush to learn watch repair. So you verified the watch is running those numbers are written down now disassemble the watch put it back together and back on the timing machine is it still doing the same thing? If it's not it's quite fortunate You are probably locked up at home with other people blame somebody else that usually is the best way.

In case you think I was joking about the last part of the paragraph above sort of? I've been in classroom situations where people failed to grasp that their watch wasn't running because of something they did. Everyone breaks things usually in the beginning you're much more likely to have accidents. It's where working on a running new watch it makes it easy to observe or at least grasp it's not running it's probably something you did versus starting with a broken watch where you can always blame that the watch was broken and move on to something else.

Oh the Rolex versus family heirloom? A lot of times people failed to grasp that everybody's different and that starting off with something valuable really isn't in your best interest. But if you're capable of learning and you grasp that you just destroyed great grandpa's watch it's a great painful lesson. Unfortunately in watch repair if you're paying attention you will remember all the stupid things you've ever done and unfortunately does not mean that you won't make the same mistake again at some point in time but the mistakes and problems will become farther and farther apart.

Then for the Waltham it Is a full plate 18 size watch.The good news is it doesn't have one of their steel mainspring barrels like they use in some of their other watches getting the mainspring to stay in there can be in issue. But as of full plate dealing with the pallet fork can be an issue there is a way to deal with that but I'll wait until you get it apart and try to put it back together and see if that problem comes up.