Who will be my first victim?

[spectre6000]

Many years ago, I decided I wanted to try my hand at watch repair. A local watchmaker talked me out of it, but not before I had assembled a small cast of willing sacrifices. Mark's videos convinced me to get back on that horse, but I'm having a hard time figuring out where to start....

 

In my pile, I have;

1) A disassembled Timex that's probably all there, but has been knocking around in a plastic sandwich bag for the better part of a decade

2) A Chinese cheap-o that claims (falsely) to be "Co-Axial" that works and has only been worn once or twice since new

3) An aluminum cased "Westclox" with a very low grade movement; may be able to make work, but almost certainly not well, and it's not pretty

 

4) A handful of women's watches (Gruen, Waltham, Hamilton, and Bulova) assumed to have been sitting in drawers for decades

5) A Wittnauer tank that may or may not work, but is otherwise servicable

6) An Elgin that I've worn as a dress watch for years that could use a service

7) A Hamilton of the same description as the Elgin

8) A Grana that I recently learned (and confirmed just now while typing this) has a split stem. Seems serviceable, but small and casual. 

 

9) A Komandierskie that needs to be serviced and recased; it's already been recased, but the dial is smaller than the aperture somehow; it was serviced in the past and all the parts should be present, in good shape, and working well together if only for want of fresh lubrication.

10) A Rado Green Horse (ETA 2824) that needs a dial refinish (probably doable DIY), and it looks like the crystal retaining ring was glued on or something, so probably also a new crystal

11) An Empire Chronograph Suisse (Venus 170); a hand fell off and is stopping the seconds hand from rotating. may or may not work aside, but definitely needs a service

 

12) A Seiko 5 that died in a car wreck that I only just survived; it stops about once an hour, IIRC, and may be an interesting adventure in fault finding.

 

13) A Waltham pocket watch that worked reasonably well until someone on the cleaning crew at the office rearranged my desk, and put it in front of a computer speaker, magnetized the hair spring, and has since been sitting idle (I'd sort of like to keep it, but there's honestly nothing all that special about it, and a cooler pocket watch could be found to serve the same ends)

14) A WWI trench watch (Digold?) I'd actually like to keep long term

15) A WWII Cyma that needs to be serviced

16) A Bulova (ETA 2824-2) that I want to do a handful of modifications to including swapping the movement for a top grade Sellita, new hands, and new crystal (maybe)

 

What I'd like to do is establish a strategy that helps the hobby pay for itself. I want to buy a tool set that can get me going, then sell the finished watches to pay for more tools and more project watches. I need to downsize my automotive shop, so those funds (limited though they may be) are available to get me going.

 

1-3 are worthless, so if I ruin something it's no loss. At the same time, they're not worth anything once they're done. 4-8 are of reasonable quality, but might not really be worth a ton. That said, I'd happily part with them. 9-11 may likely actually be worth something, but not if I make any major learning mistakes on them. 12 is worth nothing, but the personal history means I probably won't sell it. 13-16 are mostly for me. I might sell some of them, but mostly I intend to keep them.

 

In what order does it seem I would be able to achieve my desired goal, and what is the anticipated minimum viable toolset to accomplish this at each step (assuming no crazy, unforeseen issues)?

[DraconianWatchCollector]

Definitely don't start with the ones you want to keep long term. My rule is if I'm going to feel bad about breaking it then I'm not touching it till I know I have the skills for the job. The vostok and the Rado both sound like good candidates to me to start with. If someone else has already botched the job you certainly can't make it much worse.

[spectre6000]

I agree, and I'm leaning in that direction in terms of where to start in terms of being able to start trading up with the rebuild equity. I think the disposable watches are worth the first cracks.

 

I would probably need a set of screwdrivers, tweezers, oilers and oils, optics, movement holder, covered parts tray (I have a 3 1/2 month old, so being able to stop quickly seems like a good idea), and some method of cleaning things. Otto Frei sells tool kits for their classes without movements that seem like a decent starting point. Maybe a bit more comprehensive than strictly necessary, and maybe not exactly what I'd choose if I knew what I was looking at, but I don't know on the whole what I'm looking at... Also, the kit has nothing for cleaning anything.

http://www.tztoolshop.com/level-one-toolkits-without-movement.html

[Nucejoe]

Let us sèe some pix, in general the Chrono and Cyma are defenitely for keep, seiko is a start for it may be just the minute hand rubbing, eta are excelent work horse and who would want to fix timex. If automatic your Rado probably houses an eta with date complications, avoid complications at first. Demagnetization can be free of charge at your local repair shop. Good luck pal.

[rodabod]

I'd avoid the cheap stuff like the Timex and Westclox. Or anything smaller like ladies watches. And don't bother with automatic complications just yet.

Are any of them of decent quality, manual-wind, and with sub-register seconds rather than centre-seconds? That's where I would start.

[Nucejoe]

Ya, agree wirh rodabod, unless high class, ladies watches are dime dozen. I didn,t get why you want to replace the eta 2824 movement with a sellita, bulova and Rado use a decent grade eta.

[watchweasol]

Hi  Amongst that varied collection you have a Russian Kommandierski which is working , Thats a good start point its a good robust movement and dismantling it will teach you the parts of the watch how it all hangs together.and some of the skills required for the more complex movements. Now if you can dismantle  the Russian clean oil and re assemble it and it still works, brilliant.  Leave the timex untill last as although simple in design they are not easy to re assemble, but having gone through all the rest have a go it will teach you the need for patience if nothing else.    wish you well in your quest.  the members on this site will help you on your way.

[canthus]

Agree with above, pick the biggest, simplest and best quality you can afford to mess-up!  Avoid ladies like the plague.  When taking apart, take pictures and check front and backs of everything you remove, the Russian movements seem to like shims under the balance cock (these can easily be missed and lost).  I disassemble by groups (ie balance +lever parts, barrel bridge parts, etc) and put each group in a separate pot, I always keep a written list of whats in each pot so I have across check in case parts go awol during cleaning etc!!  Remove springs in a bag!!  Keep tips of tweezers true and closing together (this will avoid pinging round parts, which tends to happen if the tips are fanned out in the slightest).

[DavidMasters]

#3 the Westclock....

[Watchtime]

agree with ww, lots of spareparts around if needed in case you might destroy something.

[spectre6000]

What pics would you like, Nucejoe?

The Seiko is almost assuredly dead (I forgot to mention I have two of that model, with the second still working but losing significant time each day). The impact was head on at a net 75mph in a classic car with nothing but a seatbelt masquerading as a safety feature. My watch hand flew off the steering wheel, and I starred the windshield with my fist (though I had no recollection of doing so, nor did I feel any effects from it immediately or long term). The photo below is the ignition key after my keychain and three keys swung 90°. It was violent. The watch did not survive, and my dog and I were close behind.

The idea behind fixing the Timex is simply for the experience. It's worth nothing to me or anyone else, so if I screw it up no tears will be shed. The Westclox is about the same level of quality. Are these being suggested to avoid as a result of not being worth anything to resell, or being so difficult to service and not representative of anything that might eventually be sellable?

The dress watches, the pocket watch, and the trench watch are all subsecond movements, but the trench watch is worth something to me, and the dress watches are smallish movements. I may be willing to beat up on the pocket watch... It's nice, but hardly high end. I could probably replace it with something nicer to serve the same purpose without regret. I worry about my ability to get parts in the event I screw something up since it's the oldest in my collection by some decades.

The Rado has a 2824. The Chinesium piece might be a 2824 copy/clone/counterfeit (I'd have to open it to look), and would be good practice. The reason for swapping the Sellita into the Bulova is that the 2824-2 that's in it is an elaboré grade, and despite it's humble provenance I'd like to get a top grade movement in there. With ETA pulling the shenanigans they are, I have zero brand loyalty. Add in the (admittedly debatable) slight improvements to the Sellita, it's worth the less dollars required to get the upgrade. Also, I bought the watch NOS, and it's due a service. I figure the cost of the Sellita is about offset by the foregone cost of service. I actually bought the Bulova new, and intend to keep it long term. It's a limited edition and reasonably sought after (they just re-released a lesser version for regular production) blah blah, but I void warranties. I have plans to make it mine. It's not going anywhere, and I want a top grade movement in it.

The Vostok has been thoroughly worked over by a competent watchmaker, and aside from needing a case might be worth keeping. That said, they're hardly expensive, plentiful, and even worked over I doubt it keeps very good time... The downside is that I need to spend money tracking down a case in addition to whatever tools and materials needed for a basic overhaul.

Why not bother with the women's watches at all? I know they aren't worth much, but I gotta figure the experience is worth the effort (worst case scenario, give them as gifts). As small as they are, they seem like a worthwhile challenge.

For reference, the angle I'm coming from is automotive. I spent several years average about 6 months per car. I'd buy something I thought was cool, play with it (play for me means wrench), then get bored once everything was spinning like a top and needed nothing but oil changes, and sell it on for a profit to trade up for something even cooler. After the above mentioned wreck, that hobby sorta lost a significant part of its appeal. This seems like a good application and redirection of that energy and skillset.

 

Barring any changes in recommendations after the above elaboration, are there any tool recommendations? On the automotive side, I swore off Harbor Freight (about the crappiest tools imaginable, but tantalizingly cheap) a long time ago, and the mid-tier a while back in favor of Snap-On (high end/premium) for anything I use with any frequency (I'll still buy mid-tier if it's something that only rarely gets used). I'm not yet familiar with the toolscape in this universe. Who is the Harbor Freight, who is the Craftsman/Kobalt/Husky, and who is the Snap-On? I think it's best to start in the mid-tier, or maybe even lower mid-tier since I don't know what will get used or what features/specifications I prefer. I've read/seen/heard references to Bergeon, Horotec, Favorite, and a few others, but have no idea where they fall in the spectrum. Bergeon seems to be on the higher end (at least pricewise), but I'm not sure that's a rule so much as a generalization. What's do you all have to say on that?

[rodabod]

The Waltham would be a great choice. It will slip together with ease. Unlike the Timex which will leave you pulling your hair out as it uses a full plate design to save money. 
 

For tools, you need to apply your own judgement for where you need quality. Tweezers and screwdrivers will become an extension of your own fingers, and so they should in my opinion be excellent quality. I would also say the same for your movement holder. The list goes on.....but for many you will be able to go with something cheaper. 

[watchweasol]

  Hi I agree with Rodabod  pick up screwdrivers and tweezers of good quality  and a good loupe. The rest add as required. As you have mentioned Bergeon are the most expensive but there are many that will do just as good a job at less cost, tools are after all a personal choice.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

.As you have mentioned Bergeon are the most expensive but there are many that will do just as good a job at less cost, tools are after all a personal choice.

Cousins UK now have unbranded A*F for £2.50 a piece or 30 the full set and stand. In my opinion these are the best.

But to  be honest I can work equally well with a cheap Indian or Chinese set. What makes all the difference is how you dress the tip to match the slot. For that I use nothing more than the aluminum oxide strip on my Ebay stand.

Edited April 15, 2020 by jdm

[spectre6000]

Well... Getting started. I have an extremely detailed/small soldering job coming up for work, and as part of the end of the world the optometrist seems to have decided my glasses are non-essential... So optics are the first thing I nailed down and pulled the trigger on.

What I ultimately decided on was a new old stock Bausch & Lomb 4x/7x (and I assume 11x when combined) metal clip on loupe. They've apparently been discontinued, which is a bummer, but I think I found a set (I gave them money, but some unscrupulous internet vendors like to pretend they have things to sell, then try to actually find what they've "sold" after the fact). I see Bausch & Lomb frequently cited on the short lists as being particularly high quality, and the fact that they're metal and glass (I think) makes me feel like they're reasonably high quality (compared to the plastic alternatives). Worst case scenario, I hate them. They're still discontinued and not the easiest to find, so with what would likely be very little and very careful use, I should be able to recoup costs should it come to that.

Next up that I'm about decided on is a screwdriver set. I've read the Bergeon 5970 set was an industry standard for some time. It seems to be able middle of the road from a quality manufacturer, and I see them listed for $88 on ali-x. Interested to hear feedback.

Tweezers are another that's cited as a do-not-skimp tool. Perusing the horology houses shows Dumont to be the de facto quality tweezers, and #2 and #5 seem to be the sizes/profiles. Amazon is on my spreadsheet as having the best price.

Movement holder: Bergeon 4040 or 4040-P. I hate plastics as a rule unless they are actually the best material for task (almost never the case). This might actually be an exception to that rule though, as plastic is less likely to mar the movement. I don't know what metal/alloy the metal version is though, so... What's the consensus there?

Last up is oilers, oil holders, and oils. I haven't yet fully landed on that subject. Lots of tabs currently open on the subject. Interested in feedback here as well.

[rodabod]

For loupes, concentrate on the focal length rather than the quoted magnification. You’ll find one that works well for you. Even the Chinese ones are useable, but the Swiss ones will have less distortion, as I have observed. 
 

I have both Bergeon and AF screwdrivers and am perfectly happy with the AF ones. Learn how to dress the tips - I use a fine diamond lap. 
 

Dumont tweezers are excellent. And also a taste thing. I wouldn’t bother with #5 yet and maybe just get a general work set first like #2. Alternatively, #3 is a bit like a compromise as it has relatively fine tips. Carbon steel is hardest, but stainless is ok. I use 2, 3 and 5 in both carbon steel and stainless. There are other good Swiss brands. Also learn to dress tips, and again, a diamond lap is good for this. 

Movement holder - the Bergeon metal one is plated brass. I haven’t found a better one. I binned the Chinese copy I had years ago after a movement slipped out. Just not worth it in my opinion, especially as the Swiss part is not expensive. 
 

Someone posted a guide to a bare minimum oil selection once. Some say 3: grease, medium and fine. But I actually reckon you could survive without the grease at a push. Standard fine synthetic oil for the fast parts of the train: Moebius 9010. Medium viscosity oil: D5 or HP1300 if you want to go synthetic. The 9010 is absolutely fine for pallet faces, but you may wish to add a specific pallet grease later. You could probably survive with a single fine oiler (Bergeon red), but it’s handy having a medium or thick (Bergeon yellow) for laying down larger droplets of oil. The Indians make a round oil pot made from urea which is absolutely fine in my experience, though I have replaced it with a fancy Swiss one! Many people argue about horological lubrication. I’d use your own judgement based on science and in the longer term, experience. And reference respected authors like the BHI who have published a lubrication guide. 

[spectre6000]

Re optics and focal length: I read the article someone posted here. Good stuff. The B&L set I got is very similar to the Donegan set currently sold by O. Frei and Esslinger, but seems to be higher quality.

JDM mentioned the what I think are white labeled A&F ones (if I'm understanding that correctly) at Cousins. I'm in the western US, and the last time I had something shipped here from the UK, it cost nearly twice what was being shipped. Admittedly, I didn't dig too deep once I realized that's what I was looking at. I'll backtrack and dig a little deeper into that tonight.

When you say "dress the tips", please elaborate on this (both drivers and tweezers). Also elaborate on "fine diamond lap". I assume, you're talking about something like this:

Getting a single tweezer is a good thing! Those guys are pricey! Excellent advice.

I've watched several of Mark Lovick's videos, and save pieces that I assume have more specific/modern oil recommendations, he seems to use synthetic grease, braking grease for autos, 9501, D5, 9010, and occasionally an escapement oil (I'd have to go back and look to see what this is). That's off the top of my head, and I'm likely forgetting something. Referring to the Moebius Oil Chart I found here and assuming I'm starting with the pocket watch, 9415, 8200, and 8213 would round it out. It looks like I could go with 8000 and 8141 for the most bare bones oil selection if costs get out of hand elsewhere... Somewhere I saw an MSDS sheet on a Moebius formulation. I was surprised to see neatsfoot oil in it... I have thoughts on that, but want to have a bit more before I start sharing conjecture without experience or more research. Oil seems to be a complicated and argued over subject across a variety of hobbies (i.e. cars, french polishing, and I'm sure a dozen others). Chemistry is a very different skillset from mechanics, and there seems to be minimal overlap.

Good call on the oiler and oil pot. There seem to be 4 profiles, but I have no idea what each is for (different volumes are assumed, and that seems to be checking out). I like the single fine oiler suggestion. From there I can decided where to go after I get a feel for how they're supposed to work. I have a tab open for at least one of the urea plastic oil pots; do they seal, or is any excess oil waste? I won't likely have a long term work surface initially, so things will need to go away and come out as frequently as each work session.

 

 

[spectre6000]

If you wait too long, the option to edit goes away...

Good info on the movement holder being brass. Brass should be fine from a scratching the movement perspective, so I'll ditch the plastic version for the traditional metal. Thanks.

[spectre6000]

[Failed to catch the edit window again] I think I found the white labeled A&F set on the Cousins site, and unsurprisingly Esslinger has the same one for about the same price. Click!

[FLwatchguy73]

My advice, based on my own experience, begin with the pocket watch. The principles are the same, just on a larger scale and therefore easier. A demagnetizer is a relatively affordable investment. Otherwise you can readily pick up a spare movement on the bay for cheap and rob parts off it. Then once you've built some experience, drop down a level to the timex. If nothing is broken inside, you really don't even need to disassemble it. Just use a quality de-greaser and then carefully oil the pivots. You'll be surprised to see them come to life.

[rodabod]

8 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

When you say "dress the tips", please elaborate on

Getting a single tweezer is a good thing! Those guys are pricey! Excellent advice.

assuming I'm starting with the pocket watch, 9415, 8200, and 8213 would round it out. It looks like I could go with 8000 and 8141 for the most bare bones oil selection if costs get out of hand elsewhere... 

Somewhere I saw an MSDS sheet on a Moebius formulation. I was surprised to see neatsfoot oil in it... I have thoughts on that,

 

I have a tab open for at least one of the urea plastic oil pots; do they seal, or is any excess oil waste? I won't likely have a long term work surface initially, so things will need to go away and come out as frequently as each work session.

 

 

Dress the tips - your screwdriver tips will become marred and you may even chip one. You need to stone the sides down to remove any burrs/bends/marks and also flatten the tip. Leaving a grained finish helps to provide grip inside the screw slot. For tweezers, they will also be subject to wear, and the insides of the tips will effectively become burnished which affects grip. Use your loupe to assess their condition. A single diamond lap is good enough. Conventional stones are also good, but the thinness of a diamond lap allows you to grip the tweezers across the lap which I find useful. 
 

There is a guy on eBay in the UK selling new Swiss Picard #3 tweezers for a very good price. These would be very good for a general set. Item number 143582266147

For that pocket watch, you’d be fine with two oils. Think about what they had to deal with back when it was originally made. 

There’s a good reason for the neatsfoot oil. For the same reason that Windles clock oil has whale oil in it. It would have been cheaper for them to make it pure mineral oil, but it is blended for a reason. My old watchmaking tutor was a chemist and explained a lot about the properties of various oils. There’s nothing to stop you blending your own either.

Those urea pots seal well enough. I used to use a couple of blobs of rodico to make sure they stayed closed. 
 

Oh, get some Rodico!

[rodabod]

8 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

[Failed to catch the edit window again] I think I found the white labeled A&F set on the Cousins site, and unsurprisingly Esslinger has the same one for about the same price. Click!

Which ones are the unlabelled AF ones? I’ve bought both the Chinese one and branded AF ones before. 

[spectre6000]

14 hours ago, FLwatchguy73 said:

A demagnetizer is a relatively affordable investment.

I found one of the ones with the blue case on Amazon for $13. Are those any good?

Quote

Just use a quality de-greaser and then carefully oil the pivots.

What is considered a quality degreaser for this application? I've had several occasions in the past where I've nearly purchased an ultrasonic cleaner, and this will likely push me over that edge, but initially I'll be soaking/swishing in a mason jar.

6 hours ago, rodabod said:

Dress the tips - your screwdriver tips will become marred and you may even chip one. You need to stone the sides down to remove any burrs/bends/marks and also flatten the tip. Leaving a grained finish helps to provide grip inside the screw slot. For tweezers, they will also be subject to wear, and the insides of the tips will effectively become burnished which affects grip. Use your loupe to assess their condition. A single diamond lap is good enough. Conventional stones are also good, but the thinness of a diamond lap allows you to grip the tweezers across the lap which I find useful. 

When sharpening plane irons (what the set pictured above is for), there are specific angles one grinds, hones, and polishes in to maximize effectiveness and longevity. Is there an equivalent for drivers? I would have thought a mirror finish would be the ideal to avoid marring screw heads, but I can see the benefit of a rougher finish as slipping would cause much more damage much more quickly... 

Is there some sort of tweezer file or something out there? Initially, I thought the idea was to profile and repair the shape of the tip to keep things tight and aligned. I didn't realize you were talking about the mating surfaces.

Quote

For that pocket watch, you’d be fine with two oils. Think about what they had to deal with back when it was originally made. 

There’s a good reason for the neatsfoot oil. For the same reason that Windles clock oil has whale oil in it. It would have been cheaper for them to make it pure mineral oil, but it is blended for a reason. My old watchmaking tutor was a chemist and explained a lot about the properties of various oils. There’s nothing to stop you blending your own either.

I've done a bit of work with oils and their related chemistry. I'm sure there is a reason, but I'm having a hard time imagining what it might be aside from tradition. Rancidity seems like a pretty glaring reason to avoid triglycerides. Animal oils tend to have long enough chains to avoid polymerization, so they're at least not causing much harm, but I really can't think of any benefits of there inclusion (other than the cynical desire for shortened shelf life and service intervals).

Quote

Oh, get some Rodico!

Oh yeah. On the short list.

6 hours ago, rodabod said:

Which ones are the unlabelled AF ones? I’ve bought both the Chinese one and branded AF ones before. 

Upon further research, I'm not 100% sure... Here are the actual A&F set:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/af-swiss-stainless-steel-9-pieces-rs

Here's what I think is being referred to:

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/cousins-swiss-style-stainless-steel-9-pieces-rs

Esslinger has this, which I believe is the equivalent to the Cousins branded set:

https://www.esslinger.com/watchmakers-and-jewelry-screwdrivers-on-rotating-base-set-of-9/

More pertinent to the conversation, I think, is this set:

https://www.esslinger.com/screwdriver-set-flat-head-straight-blade-9-piece-in-rotating-stand-0-60mm-to-3-00mm/

They're marketed as being "made in France", and I think if anything is white labeled A&F it's these. Even then though, the A&F set is stated as being stainless steel with stainless steel blades, and the $30 sets and the French set are all "chrome plated" (I assume brass) and "tempered steel" blades. Other details of the cheaper sets compared to the French set (knurling, finish, etc.) shows they're not in the same league quality-wise. The photos of the A&F set on Cousins' site is not good enough to get really in the weeds on the details, but I'm not convinced even the $55 French set is the same level of quality. At $55 for chrome plated brass and tempered steel, I think the $33 premium for the Bergeon 5970 is not looking terrible.

[spectre6000]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000456669888.html?src=google&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=494-037-6276&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&&albagn=888888&albcp=9758436840&albag=102219139800&trgt=892889178846&crea=en4000456669888&netw=u&device=c&albpg=892889178846&albpd=en4000456669888&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4dr0BRCxARIsAKUNjWSFVmhBUwxDX7qGi1EbuE-HVApA-q-LMBm5ljVH7-OZcfY8fkwxvdoaAr-ZEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Before I do anything irreversible,  I want to make sure this is legit. Looking at the closeup photos of the tip, the receiving end of the body has a rounded profile. Elsewhere, it seems the drivers in the 5970 set have a squared profile. In a google image search for "bergeon 5970", I see a photo of what looks like these drivers on Esslinger's site, but they're listed as Bergeon 30080.

https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-30080-watchmakers-mini-screwdrivers-each/

Looking at Bergeon's own site, the 30080 drivers have the same squared profile.

https://www.bergeon.swiss/tournevis-bergeon.html

Has there been a change from Bergeon in one direction or the the other recently? I assume Esslinger is legit, so what's going on exactly?

[rodabod]

Those made in France screwdrivers are almost definitely AF as that’s where they make them. Mine were re-branded by some German company.