Advice for oiling early balance staff.

[BeyondWorld]

Hello.

What would you guys advise the best way to oil this type of balance?

It's not exactly like a watch with end stones and seems to me, if I were to oil the underside of what resembles an endstone, the oil would just slide everywhere when I screw it back in.

Would A ) Oiling the stone attached to the balance plate be okay?

or B ) Using an automatic oiler after completing it all?

Thank you.

[nickelsilver]

You oil it assembled. Put a little oil in the cup of the hole jewel, then feed it through, add until the circle on the cap jewel is big enough. An auto oiler should work as well.

[BeyondWorld]

11 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

You oil it assembled. Put a little oil in the cup of the hole jewel, then feed it through, add until the circle on the cap jewel is big enough. An auto oiler should work as well.

Assembled with the balance wheel as well?

[nickelsilver]

Assembled with the balance wheel as well?

No, install it after oiling.

[BeyondWorld]

Thank you, that's a great help.

[rduckwor]

I have always taken them down and cleaned or oiled the end stone while apart, then reassembled the whole thing.

PITA but, a lot of these movement are 50, 60, 70 years old and I want that end cap clean.

 

RMD

[m1ks]

As you have to disassemble to clean properly either option of oiling like a modern shock protected cap jewel and refitting carefully or oiling through the jewel hole as explained above, the best option in my opinion now I have and have used one is the auto oiler 1A, it's practically foolproof depositing the exact size little circle of oil which can be checked through the back of the jewel using a loupe before refitting the balance complete. 

[jdm]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

You oil it assembled. Put a little oil in the cup of the hole jewel, then feed it through, add until the circle on the cap jewel is big enough.

Sorry, I don't understand this. With the cap jewel is assembled there is no access to the oil cup, which faces it.

[nickelsilver]

Sorry, I don't understand this. With the cap jewel is assembled there is no access to the oil cup, which faces it.

The domed side of the hole jewel faces the cap jewel, the oil sink faces away.

[jdm]

18 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The domed side of the hole jewel faces the cap jewel, the oil sink faces away.

I have a problem visualizing that. Maybe I don't understand the terms.

Isn't a "sink" same as a "cup" ? The pivot shoulder should rest on the other (flat) side.

Below a so called domed jewel. What would be the point of the dome facing a cap jewel? The pivot should enter from the domed side.

I can't see what is hole jewel shape in OP picture. Cup? Sink? Domed?
For sure the hole jewel is set way down from the cap, I think that oil placed on the cap jewel, as suggested above, would not reach the pivot. And I'm not sure that oil feed from the other side would be visible through the cap jewel.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

                       If the movement was a non- runner, you wouldn,t know about the jewels,  until your tg crys something is wrong. 

Not to mention the service history and that the old piece may have been retired before your birthday and the reason for its retirement.

I soak the cock with the little screws for couple of days, to avoid broken screws starring at me, Remove the end stones, check all for my own self, better clean, instal balance wheel and cock without end stones to check the pivots inside the jewels and get and idea of the end-shake so to adjust the jewel if needed. 

I try to get the job finished with one reassembly.

Yes Sir, that's how I go about it. 

Best

 

 

 

[CaptCalvin]

 

44 minutes ago, jdm said:

I have a problem visualizing that. Maybe I don't understand the terms.

Isn't a "sink" same as a "cup" ? The pivot shoulder should rest on the other (flat) side.

Below a so called domed jewel. What would be the point of the dome facing a cap jewel? The pivot should enter from the domed side.

I can't see what is hole jewel shape in OP picture. Cup? Sink? Domed?
For sure the hole jewel is set way down from the cap, I think that oil placed on the cap jewel, as suggested above, would not reach the pivot. And I'm not sure that oil feed from the other side would be visible through the cap jewel.

 

 

 

 

 

Those diagrams are of non-capped jewels, which are not to be used for balance wheel pivots. Here is a diagram of what we are talking about:

The dome is there to keep the oil in the center with capillary action when brought to contact with end stone. There should not be any shoulders on balance pivots, but a gradual slope. Only surfaces acting as bearing surfaces are around the tip of the pivots. Otherwise there would be too much friction.

Edited October 25, 2019 by CaptCalvin

[jdm]

26 minutes ago, CaptCalvin said:

Those diagrams are of non-capped jewels, which are not to be used for balance wheel pivots. Look up diagrams of capped jewels.

Found one on this website. Now I understand, Thanks.

Edited October 25, 2019 by jdm

[jdm]

26 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

I try to get the job finished with one reassembly.

Good but that can't be done with the OP watch, because the chaton screws heads face the balance, so you have to remove cock and hairspring to access them.

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, jdm said:

Good but that can't be done with the OP watch, because the chaton screws heads face the balance, so you have to remove cock and hairspring to access them

OP shows end cap removed, his question had already been answered.

   This is an opportunity to give tips, which I did on risk reduction, " SOAK" 

Spell corrector has changed the word birth to birthday.

Best 

 

[rduckwor]

OP:  The regulator arm will eventually come off the end stone housing as you clean the end stone.  Once you have re-assembled the end stone to the cock, CAREFULLY snap the regulator arm back onto the end stone housing.  Every vintage Elgin movement I work on has then cock/end stone/regulator arrangement.

Good Luck,

 

RMD

[nichod]

1 hour ago, rduckwor said:

  Every vintage Elgin movement I work on has then cock/end stone/regulator arrangement.

 

I just did an Elgin 683 (with considerable difficulty I might ad).  Does this magical aforementioned 1A oiler fit those jewels?  Tiniest pivots and jewel holes I have yet to encounter!

I managed to oil the end stone and fit the regulator and cock down onto it.  It runs good but probably could run better from what I read in this post.  I placed a dot of oil on the back side jewel and placed the end cover onto that.  Think I got it half right at least!

[m1ks]

13 minutes ago, nichod said:

I just did an Elgin 683 (with considerable difficulty I might ad).  Does this magical aforementioned 1A oiler fit those jewels?  Tiniest pivots and jewel holes I have yet to encounter!

I managed to oil the end stone and fit the regulator and cock down onto it.  It runs good but probably could run better from what I read in this post.  I placed a dot of oil on the back side jewel and placed the end cover onto that.  Think I got it half right at least!

The 1A oiler needle is the finest tip available and 'should' pass through the smallest pivot hole, most infuriatingly I snapped mine so cannot measure it to tell you until I can order a replacement but it has been used on a few ladies wristwatch calibres and worked.

[nichod]

Ah.  One more thing to lust after.  And you say they break easily?  

I'll be able to trash it by just looking!!!

[dadistic]

Yes, they break easily. I'm on my third replacement needle, but I still think it's worth it.

 

[rodabod]

“Early”?! It looks like a Longines 12.68 or similar. Not that early!

You always have to remove the cap jewel and clean it to a mirror finish. Personally, I oil the cap jewel separately and reassemble while making sure I don’t let the oil smear sideways. A very small amount on the jewel hole helps the oil for form a bond. I do also occasionally oil via the jewel hole when assembled, but I find this less predictable.