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Intro A while back I successfully made my first attempt refitting and adjusting pallet stones using shellac. It was something I had dreaded doing (it seemed difficult) but in the end it wasn’t that difficult at all. Having gathered experience from a few years of handling tiny watch parts using tweezers and having developed some left-hand dexterity as well (I’m right handed) probably helped. Anyway, I thought I’d share the experience with anyone who would be interested and hopefully there’ll be some other WR-talker, now or in the future, who’ll find it useful. If you’re new to this topic you might find this page and this video on the watch repair channel a good start. As I didn't want to risk ruining my Gaston tool I melted and prepared the small pieces of shellac on a chisel tool (my improvisation) that I happened to have in my tool box. However, the chisel tool had a very tough plastic y surface but I was able to burn it away to expose the bare metal with my alcohol lamp before melting and forming small pieces of shellac on it. However, the pieces of shellac needed were much smaller than what they looked like to me in the video. My way of making even smaller pieces was simply to poke the small pieces that I had made with tweezers once they had cooled and were hard. Setting and adjusting the pallet stones was easier than I thought it would be. I didn't realize the fork slots for the stones pinch the pallet stones (Vostok calibre 2414) and actually keep them in place before the shellac is applied. So, I could replace the pallet stones and then check and adjust the locking depth to the escape wheel teeth before applying the shellac. A bit fiddly yes, and you do need to develop some dexterity with tweezers before you try this but not to the point that you break a sweat. Anyway, thank god for my stereo microscope! Anyway, it was my first attempt, and as is common when you try something for the first time, I made a mistake. Despite very consciously applying what I felt was a little too little shellac it still flooded the stones and a large portion of the fork when it melted. Also, I applied too much heat so that the shellac started boiling creating bubbles. So, I decided to start all over. Fortunately, the “industrial isopropanol” (so called on eBay) that I have is very efficient so no problem removing the shellac from the stones and the fork. The second time around I only used a minuscule amount of shellac. Also, I heated the Gaston tool holding the fork in short turns, just so that the shellac would fully melt without staring to boil. Much better! The following is what I would suggest based on my first experience: Basically, follow the video I linked to above. In the video, Mark pokes and scrapes the fork and the stones with tweezers to get rid of old shellac. I tried that, but it wasn’t very efficient. Instead I would let the pallets soak in industrial isopropanol for about 10 minutes and then use a paintbrush to brush them clean. The shellac dissolves completely in the isopropanol and the stones can then be easily removed and further brushed if required. To insert or slide a stone back into the fork slot I found holding the fork by the end of the slot (opposite side of where the pallet stone is inserted) with tweezers (left hand) was giving me the most control. I placed the pivot of the fork (guard pin up, of course) in a small hole in my staking block while inserting/sliding the stones with another pair of tweezers (right hand) into the slots. After having applied the shellac Mark suggests re-heating the shellac to adjust the stones. I was worried that it might result in a mess if I tried it, so I decided to do the adjusting before applying the shellac as shown in this video. The slots for the stones pinch the stones pretty well so if you're careful while you're testing the lock to the escape wheel teeth this method works well and won't dislocate the stones. However, to make sure, double check the positions (depth and angle) of the stones before applying the shellac. Now, the tiny piece of shellac should be placed on the rear section were the stone meets the fork. Mark is clear about this in his video but for some reason it completely passed me by when I made my first attempt. In my second attempt I followed Mark's instruction, but the piece of shellac, being very asymmetrical in shape, was difficult to place in the right spot. However, after warming the pallets to the point that it had only softened the shellac a bit, I discovered, to my surprise, that I could manipulate the shellac into the perfect spot with the tip of my tweezers, without the shellac sticking to the tweezers. Of course, as I've come to realize, every repairer must find his or her own way, but hopefully you'll find my "discoveries" useful. Above is a picture of the result. It's not perfect but still worked very well. The amount of shellac on the entry stone is a bit too little, and there is a < 1 degree tilt on the exit stone (which, of course, can’t be seen in the picture).

I'm sure it will accurately hold plenty of paper.

Oil doesn't dry. The person that handle thus watch did "fir service" did a very poor job, even many decades ago that was pretty normal. You never known what you can find in a watch, there is much, much worse than that.

You will find a wealth of information in many previous discussions on this and other subjects through the search function. Regds

When I looked in to this, I found that from Cousins you have to buy a pack of 10 brass bushes, and it was as cheap to fit a jewel.

Oil will tend to spread out. Which is why epilame is used in certain situations. It is common to put a little oil on the installed spring and flat barrel surfaces. Beginners usually over-oil (I did) - just a little extra to make sure! I have come across movements which seem to have been dipped in oil. This is usually caused by over-oiled jewels, springs, keyless etc, and it just spreads out everywhere.

I've got one I'm working on right now that was the same way. The cover plate on the back side of the automatic winding works, between the plates in the day wheel jumper, and all over the keyless works. There was a film of oil between all of the parts.

I don't have enough experience with old pocket watches however on the three or four that I've opened, they have not been as you've described.

hello and welcome to the forum.

Thank you grsnovi. I was able to find the exact tool i needed. Bought the tool there and had a great experience with https://www.daveswatchparts.com.

The problem with those, apart from the size, is that there is no indent for the jewel to sit in. The balance cap jewels sit in the chaton, so don't slide around when you try to insert the spring. Those little buggrs in the gear train move around when you try to put the spring in. The best solution is to leave them in place for cleaning, then oil through to hole.

Shellac can be a variable substance, but what do you expect from something that is scraped off the bodies of insects? Likewise, the various opinions on its solubility in "alcohol" are also affected by the broad variety of what people may be using, and it can easily become an apples-vs-oranges situation. Even if you are somewhat specific about the base alcohol you are talking about, there is variability. Denatured alcohol is generally thought about as being ethanol, but in some cases it contains significant amounts of methanol and also more water than you might expect, which affects its solvent activity. Likewise, when people discuss isopropanol, are they dealing with 70%, 90% or 99%? And guess what - even if you start out with 99% isopropanol, it's very hygroscopic and can become 90% or 70% over time as you open and use the bottle and it absorbs water from the air. I think this contributes to the situation whereby some people are extremely concerned about shellac dissolving during an alcohol rinse and some others feel it is not a problem. Your mileage may certainly vary depending on what exactly is in your jar...

Welcome to the WRT forum.

If it's the small diashock on the gear train - leave them in place, they're a nightmare. The larger ones on the balance, I have not problems with 2 pairs of tweezers working under the microscope. But for a beginner, I would strongly recommend hollowed pegwood as you suggest. I find bamboo (from meat skewers) easier to shape. Try working in a plastic bag - stops them pinging too far !

Yes shellac seems to be a non-exact substance that does have variety of melting temperatures. Not only different temperatures but they even seem to have different characteristics some will melt really nice and be shiny and others seems to not theirs is a differences in quality also.

Ahem Hector your sarcasm is catching up wirh mine

Yep, that moment in the future has now come for me Thanks a lot for your excellent and valuable contribution

Sorry, I only fix teeth in the mouth. Human mouths. Not dogs, cats, hamsters, horses, cows....

Great video, the guy has good skill. I'm a little confused as to why he corner filed the edges after he hardened and tempered though, was this to test its hardness? These are handy to have, they are pennies from carboots and you have the choice of thickness to suit. Very cheap reproduced parts after 56 hours of fiddling and filing lol.

I have been reading posts here for a month or so. Which partially inspired me to attempt a watch repair. Got my non-working pocket watch, Elgin, and a donor to be my first go at it.

You could hold the balance cock down with a finger, and turn the regulator with some tweezers. But it is best with the balance mounted as then the spring will be sitting correctly.

I saw the owner of the clock the other day...a neighbor...told her I was having issues. She said: "Thats OK, I am not going to wind it, I will just put it on the shelf and look at it." To which I responded: "You give me a clock to fix...I am gonna fix it!!" It is the nature of doing free repairs...lol...but I learn and it is fun.

YW for the info, signcarver. I checked my post on the NAWCC board and found that I was using the 16s movement holder to assemble a couple of 1857 model Walthams. With luck it will work with an '83 as well. I just don't know for certain. If I can test it out soon I will post later with an update. Cheers.

I had accumulated a few pocket watch movements for pocket money prices recently, so over the last couple of evenings I've been sorting out the good from the bad and the ugly. Four runners, plus one in need of a mainspring, and one with a broken balance, which donated its spring to the needy one. There are a couple more that I'll perhaps look at later in the week.

you know what one of my favorite diagnostic tools is other then using your eyes? Is something that lets you see the invisible the thing that sees the invisible is the timing machine. But I'm guessing the original posting person doesn't have a timing machine. multiple discussions here it leads to my mental confusion especially today. Seiko is supposed to be using synthetic oils at least that's what it says in the tech sheets but? Does Seiko actually use what they recommend on their service and tech sheets?. a for instance in the shop today work at the boss offers a service. He tells his customers who regulate the watch any watch to Rolex timekeeping. Yes I know what Rolex timekeeping is and he is the boss so he can say whatever he wants. So I get to be entertained with what he's doing. The case of the Seiko watches they usually running pathetic. Of course Seiko is tend to be low amplitude anyway that's not an issue that's a Seiko but at times the really low amplitudes. That means the balance wheel comes out pallet fork comes out it's rinsed off and it's nice and clean again fresh oil fresh oil on the balance jewels to running better and then he regulates them he's got really really good at that. Customers happy their watches keeping time for now but it does bring up the problem of why does fresh will make it better if the oil synthetic and it's supposed to last forever oh since I went back to read the original message I see a timing machine is in somebody's future just not fast enough for this discussion but it looks like at least he grasps that that be a good thing to have. Hopefully it's a real timing machine and not a app. either way I've attached the tech sheet for the Seiko in question. As others have noticed it's unlikely somebody is seen the decrease in speed ads in amplitude variation in other words the amplitude sucks. The regulator position becomes interesting in that wasn't always there? It's back to my fussing about timing machine it be nice to see what it has to say oh and then there's the other little problem of how do you wind this watch up? Wind it up the crown and how many times do shake this watch to wind it up? If you really want to have fun put a little mark on the ratchet wheel in and start shaking I believe JDM would probably know better I think about 11 turns the ratchet wheel and it's considered fully wound up. In other words if your hand shaking the watch the wind it because you're not using a screwdriver to do it the fast way it takes quite a while to line that watch back up again and it's not wound up your aptitudes going to be pathetic then as far as being seven years old may be did you purchase it at the factory? It depends upon a variety of factors watches made at the factory and then it shipped and did a distributor or sales agent sends it off to its final destination and then you purchase of their it's conceivable your brand-new shiny watch might've been sitting for several years somewhere so I know the watches at least seven years old conceivably older then the watch was sitting doing nothing for a whole year. Then the amplitude sucks it's always possible the oil is migrated is no longer properly on the pivots plus maybe the lubrication just isn't doing the job anymore either then the demagnetizer I would ask for a picture but I'm not only get one. Is it a proper demagnetizer for watch repair and do you actually know how to use it? Is a lot of times people don't understand the demagnetizer how it works and instead actually magnetizing watch. oh and why did I want pictures? For the same reason JDM wanted pictures we wanted know where they hairspring is and we just want to look at it and see if there's something that we see and grass that the original posting person didn't see you grasp. Especially if they hairspring isn't quite where it's supposed to be amazing what interesting are bad things happen if they hairspring is not where it's supposed to be. 7S26B_36B.pdf

It is so gratifying to see that little wheel moving again after a few hours of effort and to realize that it all started one century ago. The thing is that I'm not usually very patient, but this hobby is so interesting that I have accepted the challenge. I won't try any longer to get watches in good repair on eBay, but rather watches which are good-looking but which need a look inside. And that is a good way to make progress in English as well as getting the vocabulary about watch making. I have the habit of watching a You tube programme which is called Chronoglide (animated by a Dutch watchmaker). Wonderful! Yes, I'm really hooked I

Watch works now in every position. I used a needle to clean the hole that receives the balance pivot and I put some oil. Now I have an "elderly lady" which works . Thanks for your help!

Servicing my 2nd Omega cal. 268 (service walk-through for my 1st here) I wasn't too happy with the state of the shellac holding the pallet stones in place. The shellac had crackled quite badly and some pieces had fallen off. So, I decided to remove and refit the pallet stones, and in the process I made a few more observations and experiences I'd like to share. 1. Removing the old shellac was not as easy as just soaking the pallets in isopropanol and brush it off. The shellac just wouldn't dissolve. The shellac only softened somewhat in the isopropanol despite leaving it in for over 30 minutes. So, I had to scrape the shellac out using pegwood dipped in isopropanol, and I even had to poke some sections of the fork slot with my most pointed tweezers (being very careful not to scratch the fork). My newly bought fresh shellac dissolves completely in isopropanol in about 10 minutes. I estimate that the old shellac was almost 60 years old and perhaps it is the case that the chemical composition of old shellac changes over time so that it becomes harder and less susceptible to isopropanol!? In that case, it explains why it is sometimes possible to rinse the pallets in isopropanol without the shellac softening, while at other times it leads to the shellac becoming very soft and soggy dislocating the pallet stones. 2. I wasn't sure it was the case that the fork slots always, or most of the time, pinch the pallet stones, but I have since then learned that the stones should always fit snugly in the slots. The exception I believe might be some very old pocket watches. Well, the point being that we can adjust the locking depth of the stones to the escape wheel teeth (as shown in the video I linked to in my previous post) before fixing the stones with shellac as long as we're being gentle. 3. I found a more efficient way to create small pieces of shellac of a more convenient size by heating the end of my shellac stick until it starts to glisten and then stick the end of a small piece of pegwood (2 mm in diameter) into it and pull out a tapered string of shellac. As long as the shellac is warm you can basically pull out a string as thin as air. Anyway, when the string is tapering from about 0.5 to 0.1 mm I stop pulling, let the shellac cool and break off the string. After this I use the tip of a sharp scalpel to cut the string into small conveniently sized pieces. 4. The Gaston tool mentioned in my previous post proved to be more useful than I first thought. As it firmly holds the fork in place it makes it easy to refit the stones by sliding them into the slots. So, no need to hold the fork steady in a staking block using tweezers held by the left hand (which feels a bit scary really). Also, the arms of the Gaston tool really makes it easy to push the stones into the slots in a very exact manner. I think that sums up most of what I learned doing this operation the second time around. So, hopefully it will be useful to present and future WR-talkers who are in the process of learning this technique.

I don't know about all the fancy cleaning agents you use as I've never heard of most of them. Ronsonol lighter fluid is fine and it evaporates very quick. you should get yourselves a watch blower, there not expensive this will also help to remove the residue of lighter fluid. Rodico for removing marks. I never used an ultrasonic tank so I don't know if there good or bad. Have you looked for an old watch cleaning machine say on ebay that will give you much better results than all the fiddling about. Never use water. You can leave the balance and pallets as long as you wish in lighter fluid they will come to no harm. How on earth do you manage the mainsprings and the lubrication. I could go on forever on this but I'll leave it there.