Help with lubricants for a beginner

[bojan1990]

Hello,

I am a beginner in watchmaking hobby, so far I was able to clean, oil and regulate few watches (old swiss hand winding and automatic movements from eBay as well as one old pocket watch). I clean watches with the lighter fluid (soak them around 15 minutes in small glass cans, clean them with cotton sticks and let them dry). I actually learned a lot working with these cheap junk movements.

Along with reassembly, I oil the parts of the movement. My theoretical knowledge of lubrication is still very limited, so in the meanwhile, I learned just how to apply oil with oiler, how to clean oiler etc. The first oil that I bought is Dr. Tillwich Type 1-3. I bought it because it was cheaper than the rest of oil brands, the description said "it can be used for wristwatches", it is widely available in Germany where I live, and I wanted to have some oil until I am able to work with more types of them. The datasheet is available here http://www.dr-tillwich.com/Prospekte/drtillwich_engl/PDF-en/tk2213ea.pdf On this forum, I found the following table: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/uploads/monthly_2016_05/574c8150a5bcd_viscositychartoilswatches.gif.8f1d25c5bef8b12457bacd0f8c71c2f4.gif

According to the table, the oil that I have should be equivalent of Möbious 9000 (100 at 20 degrees), which is oil used in quartz watches. I have no interest in working with quartz movements though. Are there any other uses for this oil?

Since I am a hobbyist, the price plays a very important factor. As I understood correctly, I should have at least 4 types of lubricants: grease for keyless work, oil for the train, oil for escapement and oil for pallet jewels. Are there any alternatives for expensive professional oils? It seems a little bit odd to buy an old movement to service for 20 bucks, and then buy oil for another 40. Of course, it will last long, but it is anyway expensive.

Thanks.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, bojan1990 said:

Since I am a hobbyist, the price plays a very important factor. As I understood correctly, I should have at least 4 types of lubricants: grease for keyless work, oil for the train, oil for escapement and oil for pallet jewels. Are there any alternatives for expensive professional oils? It seems a little bit odd to buy an old movement to service for 20 bucks, and then buy oil for another 40. Of course, it will last long, but it is anyway expensive.

There are many thread in this form which discuss the very same questions you've made here. E.g.

BTW, you should not use grease on keyless, perhaps grease-oil.

Then when it comes to cost and watchmaking hobby, you can't expect certain things to be cheap, that include a good selection of quality oils. Still less than bring it for service to a professional. 

[vinn3]

there MANY posts on lubrication in this forum.  it may be a little dificult to find them,  but keep trying.  good luck,  vinn

[Tmuir]

If you stick at it you will eventually want to move awy from the cheap watches to more expensive ones.

The correct oil isn't cheap, but it will last you forever if you only do one watch here and there.

From memory it cost me around $150 AUD to buy all the oils and grease needed for servicing manual wristwatches, but I dont expect to have to buy any more oils for atleast a couple of years. Also make sure you have good screwdrivers and tweezers, that $10 you saved on cheap tweezers you will curse when it makes you ping a part across the room.

[bojan1990]

Is there any use of the oil I already bought? As I said, when comparing kinematic viscosity at room temperature, it should be equivalent to Möbius 9000, which is the oil for quartz movement, which I am not interested in.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-158-0-70251100-1422734815.jpg

If I go up in the list, Möbius 941 has kinematic viscosity of 103, Novostar Type R has 110. Is this the only property of an oil, which can be used to compare several different products? How important is the difference between 100, 103 and 110?

One thing I do not understand: according to the oiling charts for ETA 7750 movement, higher kinematic viscosity oils (such as HP-1300 or D5) are used for high pressure/low speed parts (keyless work) and lower kinematic viscosity oils (such as 941) is used for low pressure/high speed parts (pallet stones). However, in this lubricants guide (http://www.nawcc-index.net/Articles/BTI-The_Practical_Lubrication_of_Clocks_and_Watches.pdf) they recommend 8030 for winding or setting, the oil which has low kinematic viscosity (115 or something). For me, it is logical to use thin oil (low density) for fast parts and thick (high density) oil to lubricant slow parts on a movement. Am I wrong?

[jdm]

5 hours ago, bojan1990 said:

Is there any use of the oil I already bought?

For a beginner, working on supposedly simple and economic watches, I don't think there will be any difference. There are a lot of more urgent things to learn and mull about than datasheet differences between oils. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by jdm

[bojan1990]

I agree with you completely. However, I would just like to know, which oil is used for which parts of the watch, and according to which specifics (slow, fast, low/high pressure). That is why I asked if I understood the logic behind it correctly.

[jdm]

1 hour ago, bojan1990 said:

I would just like to know, which oil is used for which parts of the watch, and according to which specifics (slow, fast, low/high pressure).

Then just read the thread linked above.

[bojan1990]

Of course I read the guide. However, I still do not understand on what basis you can use Möbius 941 (103) or 9415 (107) for the pallet jewels (which move very quickly and are under low pressure) and 8030 (115) for mainspring and winding (which move very slow and are under high pressure)? According to the kinematic viscosity (103, 107 and 115) is should be almost the same oil. Or, as I asked before, are there other important properties for these oils?

[Marc]

9415 at least is a thixotropic grease which means that it's viscosity changes under shear conditions to become less viscous. This means that it has high viscosity and stays in place until it's sandwiched between a pallet stone and an escape wheel tooth at which point the shear conditions cause the viscosity to drop and the grease is able to flow more easily to lubricate the interface. Once the interface separates the shear conditions go and the grease thickens again to help keep it in place for the next pallet stone/escape tooth interaction. Not sure about 941 but 8030 doesn't share this trait.

[bojan1990]

Thank you for the explanation, that is what I was looking for.

[Tim]

On 10/29/2017 at 7:56 AM, bojan1990 said:

For me, it is logical to use thin oil (low density) for fast parts and thick (high density) oil to lubricant slow parts on a movement. Am I wrong?

Your feeling is correct. Generally grease for sliding parts, heavier oil for the slower wheels, and a light oil for the fast parts. If you have grease like KT-22 for the keyless works and mainspring, a heavier oil for everything through the center wheel, and a light oil for everything after the center wheel, you'll be good. Your biggest problem at this point is probably over application. If you wanted to splurge on a lubricant, and Dr. Tillwich is readily available, I'd get some LGN oil from them. It is a recreation of the Elgin watch oil, one of the two greatest movement oils ever made. They are unique oils because they are attracted to surfaces but repelled by itself. There is a technical description of the quality but I forget all the terms off the top of my head. In essence, if you put a small bead of the LGN oil on something and come back later, it will still be a bead. Almost all other oils will have flattened into a blob. What this means is that the LGN won't spread. 

[dieale2]

On 11/1/2017 at 8:38 AM, bojan1990 said:

Of course I read the guide. However, I still do not understand on what basis you can use Möbius 941 (103) or 9415 (107) for the pallet jewels (which move very quickly and are under low pressure) and 8030 (115) for mainspring and winding (which move very slow and are under high pressure)? According to the kinematic viscosity (103, 107 and 115) is should be almost the same oil. Or, as I asked before, are there other important properties for these oils?

Here's a pdf file that someone else linked in another thread. It specifies where it use what oil where on the movement.

I can't verify the information with experience, but the viscosity you cite for moebius matches up with novostar suggestions.

Novostar oil.pdf

[dieale2]

I found another document from the 2017 catalogue of AF Switzerland. It looks like they omit Type L oil.

Less oil to buy for me I guess. 

[StuartBaker104]

One other thing to be aware of here is the difference between synthetic and natural oils. For moebius, typically the 8000 series are natural oils and the 9000 are synthetic. Synthetic oils generally cost a little more, but have a much longer life. Since you will likely never get to the end of a bottle of oil before it reache sthe end of its shelf life, buy the smallest quantity you can... and if you are doing this as a hobby, don’t be too fussy about the expiry date anyway.