Design Watch / Plating Project

[Endeavor]

Did today my first plating, be it on a piece of iron. Before this stage, it was the mixing of the electrolyte, as per Robert Murray-smith video.

I mixed the equivalent of:

- Ammonia 9.5% by weight = 15 ml.

- 200 ml demineralized water.

- Sulfuric Acid, 95% by weight = 4ml. (car batteries or "Toilet & drain" cleaner)

- Sodium Hydroxide (caustic Soda), 98% = 7 gram

- Fosforic Acid, 20% by weight = 26 grams (limescale remover)

- Citric Acid monohydrite 15% by weight = 250ml (E330 food additive)

 

After all this is mixed in the above sequence, add demineralized water to total the amount to 1 ltr.

 

The chemicals I obtained from several shops were of different in composition, so to give you an idea of my mix;

 

- Ammonia 25% by weight = 5.5ml

- Water 200 ml

- Sulfuric Acid out of an old empty car-battery, 16% by weight = 26ml. (a full healthy battery should have about 32-34% by weight)

- Sodium hydroxyde (caustic Soda), 98% = 7 gram.

- Fosforic Acid 20% = 26ml

- Citric Acid, 98% = 40 gram.

 

As for the Sulfuric acid out of your car-battery; the get an idea of how much acid is in it, you have to determine the specific-gratify of the acid mix. Once you know that, this table will give you the percentage of Sulfuric acid: Conversion_Table.pdf

 

Of course, wear goggles and safety gloves and all I'm giving is what I've done, not what you should do! The usual CYA warning ;)

 

 

Next was the plating-setup. Top left "bath" is the cleaning agent, a mix of 10% Caustic Soda, some dish wash detergent and the rest demineralized water. Below is just demineralized water to clean the object after it has been in the cleaning-agent.

The next raw is the Activator fluid. I cheated here a bit, as I don't have the DIY composition from activator-fluid yet. I received a lot of chemicals from my friend, and it included a finished Activation fluid (bottle standing above). If somebody finds the composition of the nickel-activation fluid, please let me know. Below the activation fluid, another demineralized water bath to rinse and clean the object. Next, to the right, is the bath for brush-plating for the Brush-plating electrolyte. On top, the black lead, is the cathode with a crocodile-clip. Complete top right is the (green) sponge with the copper donor-material inside, made to suite the wand.

Completely left, the tall spray bottle, is pure demineralized water to spray/clean the object before it goes into the next "bath", avoiding contamination of the baths.

The object to be plated, in the middle is the steel frame from an old discarded CD player, just cleaned with a rotating steel wire brush/disc.

 

 

Here is the frame before plating;

 

 

While plating;

 

 

After plating;

 

 

Then I did some polishing with Brasso-polish to see how "good" the layer was, but as you can see, namely on the right hand side, I went through the plating

 

.

 

Contacted my friend, and he concluded that only about 10 minutes of plating, 14 Volt, 0.3 Amps yields only a very thin layer of copper, maybe 1 or 2 (at the most) microns (0.001 - 0.002 mm). Brasso polish, being quite aggressive, rubs through it fast. Apart from that, all looks fine.

 

The point of this exercise was to see if the setup and the DIY electrolyte / wands works at all.

As said, if somebody can find the composition of the nickel activator, I will mix it and give that a try....... (I think some mix with HCL and/or Sodium Hydroxide)

 

I'm still awaiting the nickel and pure copper donor metals out of China. Meanwhile, I'll do some more (longer) test to see if a better / thicker layer can be obtained and at which Voltages / Amps to play.

 

Hope people haven't fallen asleep by this long thread? If you did, cheer up, there more to come when I receive the donor-materials....... ;)

 

Happy Easter......... :)

 

Roland.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Endeavor]

For all the Die-hards who have been following me so far, I have the pleasure to announce that today this thread will be concluded....... (at least I hope )

Attempting the CD-player iron-frame first turned out to be a very valuable lesson about brush-plating. I spent about 10 minutes on each side, shifting the sponge step by step over the frame. I took about 6 steps to complete the rectangular shape. In average the metal gets a total plating-time of 10 / 6 = a bit more than 1-1/2 minute per step. Two sides took in total about 20 minutes.......with the overall surface now being plated for only 1-1/2 minute on average. One has to bear in mind, that only where the sponge is, the plating happens. Everywhere else, nothing happens.  Assume I want the a 10minute thick plating-time/layer, this would take me for both sides 6 x 20minutes = 2 hrs dipping around with the brush anode. And the CD-frame was an easy shape, the bracelet was going to be much more cumbersome.

By Submerged-plating, once the object is submerged and the current is switched on, all surfaces are getting actively* plated  (note the little * Asterisk here !). Since I received my friends chemicals for it, I decided that submerged plating was a better choice/option for the bracelet.

My first submerged-plating attempt failed horribly 

According to my friend, his plating nickel-acid required 9V, slowly increasing to 12V and leave the bracelet in the bath for 5 minutes. However, check regular if things go fine. Black edges indicate too much current and this creates burning spots. Only 1-1/2 minute in the process and I noticed weird spots and black edges. Stopped the process and evaluated problem.

As you can see, the metal has burned severely and the nickle has started to come off again. The voltage chosen was far too high. My friend deals with basins which contain 10m3 (10.000 ltr) of plating fluids, which is only "slightly" different with my 1 ltr plastic ice-tray. Also, predominantly one side of the bracelet was effected, the side facing the anode. The side closest to the anode gets the most current, hence the most plating and chances of getting burned. Referring to the little  * asterisk above; yes all surfaces are getting actively plated, by the surface closest to the anode gets the most, whereas to side furthest away gets the least. The object has to be kept as far as possible away from the anode to avoid local burns and to be kept in rotation. In a 1 ltr plastic ice-try, easier said than done.

Polished the whole nickel layer off and attempted again, but.......another failure

This time I used only 3.5V, as most YouTube plating video's are suggesting, but this time the nickel-plating didn't seem to attache to some places on the bracelet. After 10 minutes the bracelet was totally covered, but the places which where covered later in the process, were visible. In an attempt to polish these spots away, the whole plating came off. Poor bounding, most likely not clean- or activated-enough. It was getting late and dark yesterday, so no pictures......sorry!

Below a picture of the setup; each "bath" has now its own passive graphite-anode. Top left the 10% caustic/soap solution, in the middle the activation-fluid and the green to the right is the Nickel-acid. Below are two freshwater baths for rinsing (Yes, I know, a lot of ice-cream ;))

Again I had to polish the whole nickel layer off. Unavoidable was that the softer tin in the crack wore faster off than the surrounding copper, causing an unequal surface and making the crack more visible....

Also, when the above picture was taken, the bracelet was getting cleaned in the first cleaning caustic/soap-bath. The anode is clipped to the opposite side of the bath and you can see the foam/bubbles on the surface. Also here, the object side facing the anode, gets the best cleaning. While you rotate the bracelet for all-round cleaning, you can very nicely observe the bracelet cleaning-activity closer to the anode and further away from it. This gives you an excellent opportunity to learn about the current-behavior of the object you are about to plate. The same current-behavior happens in the Nickel-acid bath as well, be then it won't be visible....... no bubbles! I left the bracelet for 10minutes in the caustic/soap solution @ 5Volt, drawing 0.36 Amps.

Next up was the activating fluid @ 5V. One has to wait for a color-change to occur which, according to the information I have been given, should happen within seconds. However, during my first two attempts, leaving the bracelet in for up to 15 seconds, I didn't see any color-change. This time I left the bracelet @ 5V for about 3-4 minutes, but no significant color-change was observed......maybe slightly lighter of color. But I figured that in 3 - 4 minutes in the activation-fluid, the surface should be well activated. Also here I kept the bracelet rotating.

Third plating attempt; again, as in the second attempt, with 3.5V, drawing 0.03 Ampere (30 mA).

Every minute I completed a full turn with the bracelet, performed regular checks and since things were looking good, I went on for a full 1/2hr.

Here are the end results.........you decide whether it's good enough for your goals.....

Before;

After;

The crack is still visible, but one has to hold it in the light, as I've done here while taking the pictures. Just on somebodies wrist, it looks very slick and hardly, if at all, noticeable. (You need to know kind of thing). Also, in reality the bracelet looks better than under the scrutinizing light and some shades appear as scratches, but there are none. Having had to remove the nickel-plating layer twice, didn't improve the surface smoothness and made some slight roughness, kind of "pitting".

To me, it is not 100% perfect, but for what it is, the treatments that the bracelet has gone through and considering this is my first attempt ever......... I'm very happy The plating is smooth, appears equal and could stand already some light polishing.

Thoughts on brush-plating / submerged-plating:

As soon as I get an object which would fit entirely under the sponge, bush-plating will be very usable. For bigger objects, like this bracelet, submerged plating is, I think, the preferred method by far. The ready-to-go fluids required for submerged plating are far more expensive, but when good handling and when contamination is avoided (use of passive graphite-anodes), they will last a long time. However, there is a 3rd methode, and that's submerged-plating with an active anode (anode made from the material you like to plate with), using the DIY electrolyte solution described above. This is obviously cheaper than the complete ready-to-go plating fluids I've used here. I haven't got any gold-fluids, so if I want to do some gold-plating, I will give this method a try. I'm sure my wife doesn't mind if I borrow her gold-ring

Main-lessons learned;

- Both DIY fluids; the caustic/soap and the electrolyte, work. Lacking is the composition of the activator-fluid.

- Preparation is the key. Endless polishing, in this case down till 6000 grit. Also long/thoroughly electrolytic cleaning and good activation before plating.

- Brush-plating works for small objects, submerge-plating for bigger or odd shape (more effective/efficient and better equal finish). For both methods; when commonsense and protective equipment is used, I don't consider them a dangerous, toxic or hazards operation.

- Distance of the object to the anode has to be carefully observed, plating-voltage about 3.5V. Perform regular checks and keep object rotating (compared to the anode) to ensure equal coverage.

I hope somebody may have some benefit out of my experiment/project. If I get another plating-object, which calls for either brush-plating or submerged-plating with an active anode, I'll try to report that event too (unless the whole forum unanimous says; thanks, but no thanks ) 

Anyway, now the bracelet is done, all the chemicals back in the bottle, I can concentrate on the movement. There is a big chance however, that I will search for an alternative modern quartz-movement. I was thinking of giving the watch away to a young person who may appreciate a 1970's look watch, but most likely that person has never worn a daily winding watch and is used to the modern-comforts. Therefore, I'm afraid that a mechanical (inaccurate) daily-winder may end up in a drawer quickly.

For me, the watch was more for the plating experiences..... and since I'm happy with the end result, it calls for more

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Endeavor

[Geo]

That's an impressive first attempt Roland.  Thank you for sharing the information, it is bound to help others in the future, and even inspire some to try it out.

[dadistic]

Yes, thank you for such a detailed report!

 

 

[bobm12]

Great job Roland, and the best part is that it takes us with you in your journey of discovery. Those are valuable experiences masterly jotted down.

I'm sure lots of people will be inspired to try it out as Geo said! And yes, please, we would like to participate in your next plating and watchmaking projects!

Cheers,

Bob

[bobm12]

I moved this thread to the walkthrough.

[jdrichard]

Great knowledge sharing. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Endeavor]

Thank you all for your kind remarks

I'm still wondering whether I should do a silver layer over the nickel? Nickel should stay fine but could cause allergies, silver has skin-friendlier properties but has to be polished...........which one outweighs the other? Any thoughts?

[Endeavor]

Here the watch with the movement and old crystal installed.

Before and after;

Under discussion is whether it is worth to go ahead and install a quartz movement and a new crystal, or perhaps sell in on eBay again, as is? Jewellery is a personal taste and if a gift is not directly in taste, it may still end up in a drawer. Decisions, decisions..........

[Marc]

Excellent result and a very useful intro into the world of replating.

I have numerous watches in my little collection that would benefit from a replate but the cost of commercial work always seems to be prohibitive. I may well have to have a look at the DIY approach having seen your results.

[Geo]

11 minutes ago, Marc said:

Excellent result and a very useful intro into the world of replating.

I have numerous watches in my little collection that would benefit from a replate but the cost of commercial work always seems to be prohibitive. I may well have to have a look at the DIY approach having seen your results.

Ditto!

[Endeavor]

Now that I've this bracelet done, I'm looking for some watch excise/donor material to gain more experience and can make (hopefully) educational plating walkthoughs for the forum. Silver-plating seems to have different parameters again. Gold-plating will obviously be fantastic too. Just need some 24K gold, that's all

If somebody has something small, but a fun project laying about, who is willing to sacrifice the item for science / educational purposes ................we can always discuss in a PM.

[clockboy]

Very impressive & interesting thanks

[Michael]

Great result and a great read about your project. Look forward to the next installment

[Endeavor]

Thank you Michael

Perhaps unlike other forum-members, I don't have a stash / stacks / drawers full of watch parts. I have three working watches, my Rolex, a Traser and a CWC G10, none of them really suitable for a plating project.  I happened to see this bracelet + watch for a few pounds and that inspired me to learn something about plating and share my experiences with the forum. I like to try other plating methods/techniques, but I'm looking for some interesting material. Material which we all could learn and benefit from.

I asked the forum before, but unfortunately no response.

I hope this time something interesting turns up, so I can do another project. Please PM me if you have a nice (trial) plating object for the forum.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Endeavor

[szbalogh]

I was thinking that there are a lot of watches made after WWII with cheap zinc case. I have one of such as well, a Tyssitt with eb1197 movement. How can we replate them?

Usually, first copper plate is applied followed by nickel and finished with chrome. But if i put zinc into copper-sulfate it ends up with black coating even without electric current. I was reading and found that Cu(II) ions are reducing on zinc. For a non-porous copper surface one has to use additional reducing agents. Somewhere i have found hints on shiny copper plate on zinc if pyrophosphate is mixed in the palting solution. After some research i ended up with baking powder solution mixed with copper-sulfate. One has to mix baking powder in water, filter the starch component and finally mix copper-sulftate to the clean filtered solution. Put some zinc-coated screws in it and really a nice copper finish was emerged on the surface.

The only problem is that i have to clean the surface perfectly to make the first copper plate flawless. Zinc oxidizes quickly and the surfece has deep sratches. I need something that will dissolve the dirt and oxidized layer and put immediatelly in the copper solution.

[Endeavor]

Hello szbolagh.........very interesting problem you pose. Certainly I'm far from answering. I hope to get some donor-material from forum member Ramrod soon, and perhaps it includes a Zinc watch-case? If so, we can experiment together with and maybe we find a solution to the problem?

It seems that you found already a part of the solution, which is already a great help

It may well be that my busy friend, who knows a lot about these things, can help us out, but I won't ask him until I face the problem, can describe exactly what I see & try his answer. Stay tuned......

BTW; it may become a new thread as this one was more specific to the bracelet.

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Endeavor

[szbalogh]

The Tyssitt is almost done, movement serviced, new stem turned... only the case is left. But i want to be sure on that plating, dont want to ruin it.
Will report on the progress.

Till then here is the link to the process i found:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3716462.pdf

[ramrod]

I wonder if an acid bath could be used to remove the zinc oxide before copper plating.  Or could it make the surface too rough? It's worth a thought 

[Endeavor]

@szbalogh No, you don't want to ruin the watch-case, so indeed best is, like you already did, try on old material.

@ramrod All suggestion are welcome, and a short dip in HCl may indeed be the answer(?). The more "problems" are accumulated / discovered, the better I can ask my friend, and/or try on test-material. Do you happen to know whether there was a zinc case between your donor material?

Regards: Roland.

[ramrod]

Im unsure Roland. I kind of doubt it.

[Endeavor]

Okay, we will see.........thanks already so far

Everyday I'm standing at the corner of the street, awaiting the postman

[szbalogh]

2 hours ago, ramrod said:

I wonder if an acid bath could be used to remove the zinc oxide before copper plating.  Or could it make the surface too rough? It's worth a thought 

HCl will quickly dissolve zinc. H2SO4 used instead. Didnt try it yet but treasure hunters say it might work:

http://www.metaldetectingworld.com/cleaning_coin_p19_zinc_tin.shtml

[Endeavor]

@szbalogh H2SO4 sound good, but those numbers don't say me a lot. Google made more sense with Sulfuric acid or car-battery fluid

Consulted my friend today about various things and mentioned the zinc-problem. Now, I'm just repeating what his reply was, as I have no idea....

He works with two types of fluids (submerged plating); Nickel-acid and Nickel-neutral.

- Nickel-acid as a ground layer for all materials which are not sensitive for acid. After the Nickel-layer you can put on another layer such as silver or gold.

- Nickel-neutral as a ground layer for materials which are sensitive to acid such as Zinc and Zamak materials. Thereafter, any other layer higher in "hierarchy", such a silver or gold.

As far as I understood, the Nickel layer goes directly onto the base-material and protects the base-material for further treatments / subsequent layers.

The fluids he sent me, includes Nickel-acid and Nickel-neutral, but nothing specific is written on the bottles.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Endeavor

[szbalogh]

1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

 

Skipping copper layer and nickel directly onto zinc sounds good. I must know the composition  

Please ask Your friend! I can make it if i know the recipie.