Serviced ETA 2763 having erratic rate and amplitude

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

 Where I'm going with this is watches are mechanical devices gear trains produce power fluctuations watches will still keep really good time with power fluctuations up to a certain points. Be careful not to get obsessed about timing machines software or if you think your first experience with a timing machine was a nightmare this will send you straight to the psychiatric ward. Understand why you're using the software and why you're looking at it.

Do you think we as beginners and new to the hobby use the baseline of all the good readings we see from other watches and then wonder why one in particular causes us a problem. With the attitude that If most watches restore fine and run well then they must all do with a little help from us. There will always be a few that slip through the manufacturer's checks and quality control, the ones that take extra effort to make them work like they should have when they first left the factory. This watch that watchie is working on may have always produced the same readings since it was made.

15 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

it's one of the objections I have when people have hairspring issues and everyone says take the balance out of the watch hairspring issues with balance wheels typically occur in the watch you have to be able to see the problem in the watch you don't always have to fix it in the watch but you have to see the problem in the watch balance wheels out of the watch a lot of times a look really nice but not in the watch and collets perfectly centered aren't actually centered at all necessarily

I would say thats to do with accessibility. With mecanical devices, you can often see the problem while its running but cant get to fix it, when you can get to it to fix you can't see exactly where the problem is so you have to guess.

[mikepilk]

There's a section in "The Chicago School of Watchmaking" on centring the collett.  chicago lesson 19.PDF

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

A basic check one does when checking a hairspring is how well centered and flat it is at the collet. Out of flat is visually quite clear in the watch, out of center is harder to describe, mainly the inner 1/2 of the coils look "jumpy" as the balance oscillates. Adjustment is done with the balance out, hairspring on, in ideally a set of hairspring truing calipers. These permit a better view of the spring, and better access, than regular calipers, though those work as well. Adjustment is done on the first 180 degrees or so of the spring from the collet. The caliper is adjusted so the balance can spin with no play. Just slowly turning the balance, follow the first coil/s of the spring from its exit from the collet, and it should make a nice progressive spiral. If it is out of center, it will seem to spiral out, then cease, then out, or even go back-and-forth sort of.

 

As with everything it takes a bit of practice to figure out where and how much to adjust, but the basic rules of hairspring adjusting still apply. Adjustment in the flat is done 180 degrees from maximum error, in the round, 90 degrees. When checking the flat in the caliper, you have to focus on the first 4-5 coils, as the rest are influenced by the weight of the stud and will naturally look low. When all good, those first few coils will look distinctly flat viewed from the side, and the whole spring will look like one of the optical illusion spirals as the balance slowly spins (viewed from above).

 

The effect on timing from a spring out of true at the collet can vary from almost unnoticeable to rather extreme. I was just working on a new-build, first time on the timing machine. I saw there was a little truing needed at the collet, but ran a cycle anyway. In my case, the verticals were slow compared to the horizontal, with an apparent poise error equaling 60s. I trued it at the collet, and the difference in both h/v and the "poise error" were cut in half. Another reason not to chase dynamic poise if everything isn't as perfect as possible.

 

The effect of centering at the collet is used by good regleurs sometimes by introducing an error. Sometimes you find the verticals just want to run slow, with regulator pins adjusted perfectly etc. Like, perfect poise, but 15s slower than horizontal. Sometimes throwing the centering out at the collet by say half a spring thickness can resolve this. It is pretty much unnoticeable visually. Also, you have to guess which way to "throw it out", haha.

 

A Levin hairspring truing caliper and a Swiss simple caliper that works well too

 

 

 

 

These as well

[nickelsilver]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

These as well

 

 

They can work, but you can see how extreme the Levin is in removing the maximum material on the caliper above the spring to allow proper viewing. The Swiss one has more material but works- though it is less handy than the Levin.

[VWatchie]

Not sure what these pictures of the underside of the balance cock bring to the table if anything, but as I adjusted the end shake of the pallet staff I took the opportunity to take the above pictures. The only thing I noticed looking at the spring was it looked like someone had nudged the terminal curve a bit. Perhaps to correct a slight out-of-round. Other than that there's nothing that catches my eye. To me, things look fine (I've seen a lot worse) but maybe you will see something which I could look further into?! I don't have hairspring truing calipers but let me return about that.

So, I checked the pallet staff end shake. It looked good, even perfect, and reasonably well in synch with the end shake of the escape wheel. Nevertheless, I increased the gap by 3/100mm to make sure but it made no difference. So, I adjusted it back.

@nevenbekriev The analogy of a vinyl record was great and easy to visualize and understand. So, thank you very much for that. (I suppose a certain mature age is required to understand the parable so being old sometimes has its advantages  BTW and OT, I saw a T-shirt with the print "It's Weird Being The Same Age As Old People". I can totally agree with that, )

On 3/14/2024 at 8:20 PM, JohnR725 said:

For instance with this watch does it actually keep time with the hands on?

Yes, and no! As long as I wind it every 24 hours and use it consistently, that is wear it during the day and let it rest on its back during the night it is not too bad but not exactly good either. What truly bothers me is the huge difference in rate between the watch in its horizontal positions and its vertical positions. Fully wound, dial-up +26 s/d, and fully wound minus 24 hours, crown left -56 s/d. That's a delta of 82 seconds! So, I guess the most pressing question would be, what is the typical reason(s) for large differences in rate between the horizontal and vertical positions? Rereading your replies it would seem to me that the typical reason is "the centring of the hairspring to the collet", but if you could confirm that to be the typical reason I'd feel a little calmer.

On 3/14/2024 at 8:20 PM, JohnR725 said:

Be careful not to get obsessed about timing machines software or if you think your first experience with a timing machine was a nightmare this will send you straight to the psychiatric ward. Understand why you're using the software and why you're looking at it.

I couldn't agree with you more here John. There was a time when I almost gave up on this beloved hobby of mine because of the TM, but fortunately, I discovered that even when the data looks far from ideal, the movement can keep not only good but great time. So, these days I always test a watch on my wrist or my Cyclotest before I make up my mind about if anything needs to be looked into.

On 3/15/2024 at 10:30 AM, nickelsilver said:

Adjustment is done with the balance out, hairspring on, in ideally a set of hairspring truing calipers.

Thanks for your detailed description of what to look for and how to adjust. I think I get most of it but my first step would be to have a good look at the spring on the balance in the way you describe it. I don't have hairspring truing calipers but I have a B.H.T. truing caliper. I'll see if that can be placed on the table (or a vice) so that the balance and spring can be seen in a horizontal position. If so, I'll try to video-record it so that we can all have a look.

[mikepilk]

5 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Thanks for your detailed description of what to look for and how to adjust. I think I get most of it but my first step would be to have a good look at the spring on the balance in the way you describe it. I don't have hairspring truing calipers but I have a B.H.T. truing caliper. I'll see if that can be placed on the table (or a vice) so that the balance and spring can be seen in a horizontal position. If so, I'll try to video-record it so that we can all have a look.

For details of how to adjust centring the collett - see the attachment I added above - I'll add it again here. chicago lesson 19.PDF

It gives detailed info how to adjust. 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, there are different reasons for differences in rate in horizontal versus vertical position. But the main reason which is the base of the all this reasons is decrease in amplitude in vertical versus hiruzontal positions.

One of the basic reasons has it's roots in the formula for the real balance-hairspring system own resonant frequency, which is long and complicated formula that shows that free oscillations actually are not isochronic.

Here is a page copy from old book for watch regulation theory, which shows different cases of ange beginning/end of the hairspring and the way this angle affects the rate.

Well, this is in Russian, but the vertical axis is 'gain/delay' in seconds per day and horizontal axis is the amplitude in degr.

So, what is imortant here is that if the hairspring shape is chosen correctly, it will be able to compensate the escapement effect on the rate when low amplitude and thus relatively isochronical work will be acieved. And if the hairspring is simply 'vibrated', with no idea of what angle beginning/end will receive in the end, then easily a difference of entire minute per day in vertical/horizontal positions can be achieved. But, this is the designer's duty. If it is regular balance-hairspring couple from the manufacturer, then such problem would not exist.

The most probable reason in You case would be that the hairspring touches something and thus gets shorter when big amplitude. This 'something' well can be the collet, if the hairsprinfg is not centered there. To see if it is the case, we will need picture of the hairspring where the collet is seen. So, remove balance from the cock, put it hairspring up and make a photo of the hairspeing

 

[VWatchie]

19 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

So, remove balance from the cock, put it hairspring up and make a photo of the hairspeing

This is new territory to me so I don't know what to make of it. The pictures were shot through my phone's macro lens so they aren't perfect. Anyway, looking at the hairspring through my stereo microscope, it looks like it has been attached to the collet by moving material from the collect over the hairspring. I never saw that before but as I don't have a ton of experience it could be anything from just right to dead wrong. I can't wait for your input!

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This is new territory to me so I don't know what to make of it. The pictures were shot through my phone's macro lens so they aren't perfect. Anyway, looking at the hairspring through my stereo microscope, it looks like it has been attached to the collet by moving material from the collect over the hairspring. I never saw that before but as I don't have a ton of experience it could be anything from just right to dead wrong. I can't wait for your input!

I cant see exactly what you are seeing watchie, but i have worked on a lot that were not pinned.  Only way i can describe it is a slit cut into the side of the collet, the hs is then put into the slit then closed up and the hs trapped inside it

[RichardHarris123]

Difficult to see, a rivet and a spot weld?

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This is new territory to me so I don't know what to make of it. The pictures were shot through my phone's macro lens so they aren't perfect. Anyway, looking at the hairspring through my stereo microscope, it looks like it has been attached to the collet by moving material from the collect over the hairspring. I never saw that before but as I don't have a ton of experience it could be anything from just right to dead wrong. I can't wait for your input!

The position of the two pinning points looks like the second diagram down from nev's post which would give the least rate fluctuation over variable amplitudes.

30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

This is new territory to me so I don't know what to make of it. The pictures were shot through my phone's macro lens so they aren't perfect. Anyway, looking at the hairspring through my stereo microscope, it looks like it has been attached to the collet by moving material from the collect over the hairspring. I never saw that before but as I don't have a ton of experience it could be anything from just right to dead wrong. I can't wait for your input!

Terminal curve loks to be heading into the main coils.

[VWatchie]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Only way i can describe it is a slit cut into the side of the collet, the hs is then put into the slit then closed up and the hs trapped inside it

That's what it looks like, yes!

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Terminal curve loks to be heading into the main coils.

Yes, but I don't know if that is a problem or would explain the huge differences in rate (as previously described). I do hope @nickelsilver and @nevenbekriev will share their thoughts about what they see.

[mikepilk]

The first thing I'd do is fix that terminal curve, so you have the same gap all along it. It must be distorting the hairspring when mounted. - bringing the outer coil too close to the stud. Possibly hitting it at higher amplitude. 

Oddly enough, this seems to be the same problem I'm having at the moment - giving plots very similar to yours. Hairspring re-shaping time.

It's an easy fix for you, no need to remove the spring. Then re-assess.

 

Edited March 17 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

 VWatchie, the vids you posted on youtube didn't open on my tablet.

Did it show the sprial breathing at high amplitude? 

Thats the only sure way to see if the outer circle hits the stud, or sticking or fouling itself. 

Top view vid of the sipiral running at real high ampplitude, replaces guesses with certainty, keep in mind please THE HITTING CAN BE INTERMITENT, so you can't loose taking vids for  a minute.

Rgds 

Joe

 

Edited March 17 by Nucejoe
With respect to all previous advise givers

[Neverenoughwatches]

58 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's what it looks like, yes!

Yes, but I don't know if that is a problem or would explain the huge differences in rate (as previously described). I do hope @nickelsilver and @nevenbekriev will share their thoughts about what they see.

Its always better to have the hs breathing as concentric as possible. What i learned very early on was that a hs can look great just on its own but when its held at two points ( 1 fixed and 1 continuously rotating back and forth ) its concentricity and attitude can change dramatically if those 2 points aren't set up correctly. A lot of watch repair i think is determining what funcion group an issue resides in. Loss and fluctuating of amplitude can reside in every group . Closing down on a problem is an amateur's biggest weakness that can only be strengthened with experience.

 

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

The first thing I'd do is fix that terminal curve, so you have the same gap all along it. It must be distorting the hairspring when mounted. - bringing the outer coil too close to the stud. Possibly hitting it at higher amplitude. 

Oddly enough, this seems to be the same problem I'm having at the moment - giving plots very similar to yours. Hairspring re-shaping time.

It's an easy fix for you, no need to remove the spring. Then re-assess.

 

I agree with Mike, although the path this discussion has taken is really interesting and quite deep , maybe overthought . 

[Nucejoe]

The  need and benefits of fixing the terminal curve near the stud is obvious and go without saying, once trued, a bit of adjustment at the bend is neccessary to wholey center the spiral, a fix which not much hope can be pinned to  ,  to get rid of this presumably actual erratic rate, , as VWatchire already tried another watch on TG and observed similar erratic rate again. 

Rgds

[nevenbekriev]

OK, I can't see something criminal near the collet. At least, no touching can happen there thow I was thinking this possible.

Then, the angle beginning-end is between I and II diagram, and such angle will make the movement work faster when low amplitudes and slower when high, so this choice is the best for the way the movement behaves, and if changed, the problem will only get depper and worse. So, seems that there is no problem here.

Then the only point I can think of where such behavior can be caused is the studd where the hairspring can touch in high amplitude. So, please, assemble the balance again in movement and manually move it in direction so the hairspring expands to the maximal angle - 330 degr or so, and look at the distance between studd and hairspring and if it will touch the studd in some angle. At this moment I can't see another possible reason for this behavior. The terminal curve is really not perfect and can be rectified, and this must make the studd stay a little bit away from the hairspring

[praezis]

Adjusting the hairspring end to look „nice“ makes no sense by itself. More important is the distance stud - center which must be the same on cock and hairspring. You may spoil this by adjusting to „nice“ on the separated balance.

Didn‘t you write above that you opened the regulator gap? That can make your issue worse.

Frank

[VWatchie]

@praezis I'm probably not experienced (or smart) enough to understand what you're trying to mediate.

2 hours ago, praezis said:

Adjusting the hairspring end to look „nice“ makes no sense by itself.

I assume that what you call the "hairspring end" is what I call the terminal curve or end curve of the hairspring, i.e. the section of the hairspring running in the regulator arm. No?

I'm not sure what you mean by "nice". Perhaps it is a quote from some other post in this thread? Anyway, I would think that "nice" in this context would mean that the terminal curve follows the arc of the regulator arm so that the hairspring does not collide with either the boot or the pin. Now, that would make sense to me, so maybe you're referring to something else, no?

2 hours ago, praezis said:

More important is the distance stud - center which must be the same on cock and hairspring.

I've been reading this sentence at least 10 times, but I just can't figure it out. Being just an enthusiast perhaps this is simply over my head.

2 hours ago, praezis said:

You may spoil this by adjusting to „nice“ on the separated balance.

Again I don't understand what you mean by "nice" and I don't understand what a "separated balance" is.

2 hours ago, praezis said:

Didn‘t you write above that you opened the regulator gap? That can make your issue worse.

I'm sure that what you write is crystal clear to pros like John, nickelsilver, the more experienced/smarter among us, and yourself, but I'm afraid you're just wasting your time if you assume I can make anything out of it. Anyway, thanks for trying!

16 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

So, please, assemble the balance again in movement and manually move it in direction so the hairspring expands to the maximal angle - 330 degr or so, and look at the distance between studd and hairspring and if it will touch the studd in some angle.

Thank you very much for the hands-on suggestion  I try to do that as soon as I get a chance (hopefully today) and we'll see what I find out.

16 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The terminal curve is really not perfect and can be rectified, and this must make the studd stay a little bit away from the hairspring

I've successfully done that before so hopefully that won't pose too much of a challenge. I'll post a picture when done so you can have a look at it.

I think I'll service this movement from scratch again. Although I cleaned the pivots using Eveflex and they looked good I did not burnish them. I'll do that this time around. I've had really awesome results previously when burnishing.

Edited March 18 by VWatchie

[Nucejoe]

 This is what I understand from Franks statement.

What matter is:   the concentricty of spiral ( near the stud inclusive )  when balance complete is installed in the movement and adjusted.

A spiral  that look perfect when out of the watch, often needs adjustment when installed in the movement.

VWatchie, Sort out the mess thats near the stud, install and adjust the spiral for total concentricity. 

Rgds

 

 

 

[praezis]

Thank you Joe, you got it!

What I meant: you can adjust the terminal curve to look perfekt concentric, but you will alter the distance of the stud from the collet center. Back in the watch/cock this may distort the hairspring.

Maybe this ugly terminal curve gives the correct distance.

Frank

[luiazazrambo]

This is a very interesting topic, very good to see and read. You do seem to have about a 4.5 minutes periodicity in your reading and within this period you also have a pattern. Did you have the same reading without the motion work and lubrication, i assume you didn't check that? Are the plate screws tight enough? I am just messing with watches like you, not like some of the ppl who already commented on this so not sure if anything i have here added anything useful. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

A spiral  that look perfect when out of the watch, often needs adjustment when installed in the movement.

this is one of my objections to removing the balance wheel from the watch sometimes removing the hairspring from the balance wheel. As the problem with the balance wheel and hairspring is in the watch not out of the watch. Oftentimes out of the watch when the balances on the bridge for instance it might lean in one direction and change its position it may look wonderful but not necessarily in the watch. Or one of the images had the hairspring centered between the regulator pins out of the watch and I was wondering what it looks like inside the watch?. remember the balance wheel and hairspring is giving you problems possibly inside the watch you make the adjustments if you have to outside but you still have to verify in the watch things look right.

 

 

[mikepilk]

31 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

this is one of my objections to removing the balance wheel from the watch sometimes removing the hairspring from the balance wheel. As the problem with the balance wheel and hairspring is in the watch not out of the watch. 

But sometimes you do need to remove the hairspring to make sure the collet sits directly over the jewel hole.

I remove the hairspring to make sure all the coils are concentric, the collet is centred, the spring is flat, and the stud perpendicular. (True, you can do these with the spring still on the balance, but not the next step).
Then mount in on the cock to check the terminal curve, and move the collet over the jewel hole. And check that it's sitting flat and parallel.
Then I put it back on the balance, and any final tweaks made with it back in the movement.  

 

Edited March 18 by mikepilk

[Nucejoe]

Mike, You mean like this, 

  A routine approach for truing the spiral , this is alright  as long as spiral  remains concentric, as you do the rest of making  a balance complete. 

On 8/13/2019 at 9:41 PM, JohnR725 said:

 

Some coils have a bend at terminal curves end, some don't , you ought to be careful that  every point on the coil must lie concenrtic and collet centered over the jewel hole.

Nothing wrong with removing the old spring to form as above.